B
BlueMaxx
Guest
Omniscient = all knowing
Omnipresent = present everywhere
Omnipotent = all powerful
Omnipresent = present everywhere
Omnipotent = all powerful
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
B
bobperk
Guest
The best analogy I can come up with to describe God’s involvement in the creation of the universe is to compare an author’s mind to a book. Science can describe how the book is produced: how the paper is made, the mechanics of typing ink onto the pages, binding the book, the chemistry of the colors used on the cover and within the pages; the physical weight of the book, how it smells, what it looks like on a microscopic scale. But science cannot exactly describe the author’s thought process, or predict the exact sequence of the words he or she used, his or her creative inspiration, etc. The sciences / arts can indeed describe the meaning of the author’s words, the themes of his or her works, but can never really fully explain the mind behind the written words.
On another note, while a physical young earth may not be proven, I do hold that the earth can be “young” in the sense that mankind has comprehended the divine source of creation only relatively recently, i.e., the “consciousness” of man in relation to his place in the world is young and most likely matches up with the Biblical account revealed in Genesis.
On another note, while a physical young earth may not be proven, I do hold that the earth can be “young” in the sense that mankind has comprehended the divine source of creation only relatively recently, i.e., the “consciousness” of man in relation to his place in the world is young and most likely matches up with the Biblical account revealed in Genesis.
T
TMC
Guest
How does this relate to YEC? None of those qualities of God are relevant to whether one believes in YEC or not.Omniscient = all knowing
Omnipresent = present everywhere
Omnipotent = all powerful
B
BlueMaxx
Guest
Well, what is the alternative to what we are referring to as YEC?
The answer has to be evolution…it is the pachiderm in the room if you will.
If God is all of those attributes (which He is) then for Him to create the earth in a perfect state (pre fall) that way scripture tells us is not out of the question.
As to how one believes, that should be something each person through prayer and faith comes to on their own terms…
The answer has to be evolution…it is the pachiderm in the room if you will.
If God is all of those attributes (which He is) then for Him to create the earth in a perfect state (pre fall) that way scripture tells us is not out of the question.
As to how one believes, that should be something each person through prayer and faith comes to on their own terms…
Last edited:
T
TMC
Guest
Sorry, you are not making any sense. Evolution is not a the only alternative to YEC. The belief that God is omnipotent has no relation to whether one believes in YEC or not. What point are you trying to make?Well, what is the alternative to what we are referring to as YEC?
The answer has to be evolution…it is the pachiderm in the room if you will.
If God is all of those attributes (which He is) then for Him to create the earth in a perfect state (pre fall) that way scripture tells us is not out of the question.
As to how one believes, that should be something each person through prayer and faith comes to on their own terms…
B
BlueMaxx
Guest
If you are feeling as if I am making no sense or being obtuse then perhaps clarify what you mean by not the only alternative.
God created the heavens and earth…it was perfect before the fall…perhaps He created it with the appearance of age but never the less He created it…be it 5,000, 10,000, or 13-15,000 years ago…
That would be a “young earth” in comparison to someone who believes the earth being billions of years old…
The Church holds that either views are acceptable…in Her wisdom…
God created the heavens and earth…it was perfect before the fall…perhaps He created it with the appearance of age but never the less He created it…be it 5,000, 10,000, or 13-15,000 years ago…
That would be a “young earth” in comparison to someone who believes the earth being billions of years old…
The Church holds that either views are acceptable…in Her wisdom…
S
StephieNorthCo
Guest
You summed up my own belief nicely. Thanks for articulating it.
G
Gingersnaps4
Guest
I personally believe that Genesis is being narrated from the POV of being at the place where creation began; the Big Bang. I believe in a young-old Earth. It’s young by the standard of time that has passed from the point where creation began, but from where our planet is sitting now with all of the expansion of space-time in between, about 14 billion years or so has passed. It probably sounds like a strange viewpoint to have but I read something on the subject years ago that was very convincing to me. So in summary, our earth is old but Genesis is true.
T
thistle
Guest
Hopefully not many. I know the Church does not ban us from believing in a young Earth but frankly in my opinion it’s a ludicrous position to adopt.I know there are those who consider Genesis to be a reasonably factual description of the begining of the world. But how many are actually YECs?
Clearly the Earth is not just a few thousand years old!
B
Bradskii
Guest
Well, I like to keep it ticking over. Can’t let a good thing just fade away.Bradski, have you been spending too much time at The Thread That Would Not Die ?
B
Bradskii
Guest
So what’s your position, Ed? A few thousand years old or a few billion? Give or take. No need to be exact. Ball park figure. Best guess as it were. Nearest figure rounded up.Show the Church document that does teach what you think is true.
T
TMC
Guest
You seem to be saying that if God is omnipotent than the earth must be young That makes no sense to me. You also seem to think that evolution and the age of the universe are connected. They are in the sense that evolution presumes an earth old enough for creatures to evolve. But the two are not otherwise scientifically connected - they come from different disciplines.If you are feeling as if I am making no sense or being obtuse then perhaps clarify what you mean by not the only alternative.
God created the heavens and earth…it was perfect before the fall…perhaps He created it with the appearance of age but never the less He created it…be it 5,000, 10,000, or 13-15,000 years ago…
That would be a “young earth” in comparison to someone who believes the earth being billions of years old…
The Church holds that either views are acceptable…in Her wisdom…
As to what the Church allows - the Church does not condemn belief in a Young Earth, just as the Church does not condemn believing that everything is made of the four basic elements Fire, Earth, Water and Air, or that snow and hail are stored in buildings in the sky and thrown down on earth during storms. Erroneous scientific beliefs don’t generally impact on the faith, so the Church does not condemn them.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
I’ve never met a YEC Catholic IRL.
I have run across them OL.
However, I have some Evangelical friends who are YEC.
I know they’re out there, but I don’t think anyone’s done a poll or has a statistic, because while the RCC doesn’t forbid YEC, it’s not a mainstream thought.
I have run across them OL.
However, I have some Evangelical friends who are YEC.
I know they’re out there, but I don’t think anyone’s done a poll or has a statistic, because while the RCC doesn’t forbid YEC, it’s not a mainstream thought.
G
GordonP
Guest
It’s definitely due to contact with American conservative Protestantism, and didn’t arise from within Catholicism.I’ve never met a YEC Catholic IRL.
I have run across them OL.
However, I have some Evangelical friends who are YEC.
I’ve lived half of my live in the US, and half in Europe. One of the most striking differences is how much American conservative Catholicism has been shaped by American conservative Protestantism, especially Calvinism.
It dates at least back to the 1970s, when conservative Catholics and evangelicals started to court each other within the framework of the Moral Majority. Conservative Catholics picked up a lot of the thinking and language of the Evangelicals at that time, and now have more in common with white Evangelical conservatives than with moderate or progressive Catholics.
In Europe, conservative Catholicism is a whole nother beast. Even in a conservative Catholic country like Poland, I have only heard of one Catholic creationist, and he picked it up while living in Canada. Creationism is very rare in Europe even among conservative Protestants.
Last edited:
S
Sbee0
Guest
Yup. I think there is definitely some Evangelical thought as influence.I’ve never met a YEC Catholic IRL.
I have run across them OL.
However, I have some Evangelical friends who are YEC.
I know they’re out there, but I don’t think anyone’s done a poll or has a statistic, because while the RCC doesn’t forbid YEC, it’s not a mainstream thought.
The way I see it, God wants us to discover our physical world through science. There is evidence that the earth is very old. Would God try to deceive us and have all this evidence that the earth is very old if it really was only a few thousand years old? I’d say no.
Last edited:
B
BlueMaxx
Guest
I would engage you further, but after your childish “snowball” remark I would say not a snowballs chance in hell…
People ask about folks who might believe in YEC then when one sets about to discuss it they are ridiculed or spoken down to.
And for the record there speedboat…I am not implying God is omnipotent, I am telling you straight up He is…
I humbly suggest you take a peek at the oldest known book of the Bible, Job 38 to be exact…
38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind:
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up your loins like a man,
I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
when it burst forth from the womb;
9 when I made clouds its garment,
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed bounds for it,
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It is changed like clay under the seal,
and it is dyed[a] like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.
19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20 that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21 You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
25 “Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26 to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man;
27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground put forth grass?
28 “Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the hoarfrost of heaven?
30 The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Plei′ades,
or loose the cords of Orion?
People ask about folks who might believe in YEC then when one sets about to discuss it they are ridiculed or spoken down to.
And for the record there speedboat…I am not implying God is omnipotent, I am telling you straight up He is…
I humbly suggest you take a peek at the oldest known book of the Bible, Job 38 to be exact…
38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind:
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up your loins like a man,
I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
when it burst forth from the womb;
9 when I made clouds its garment,
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed bounds for it,
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It is changed like clay under the seal,
and it is dyed[a] like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.
19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20 that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21 You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
25 “Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26 to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man;
27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground put forth grass?
28 “Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the hoarfrost of heaven?
30 The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Plei′ades,
or loose the cords of Orion?
E
edwest211
Guest
So some people were exposed to the mythical Protestant virus which transformed them about this one topic? That is not true. I know nothing about Protestant beliefs.
B
Bradskii
Guest
So what’s your personal opinion, Ed. I asked a few posts ago but you must have missed it. A few thousand or a few billion? Ball park figure?So some people were exposed to the mythical Protestant virus which transformed them about this one topic? That is not true. I know nothing about Protestant beliefs.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
There has definitely been a lot of cross-pollinization of thought here in the US.Conservative Catholics picked up a lot of the thinking and language of the Evangelicals at that time, and now have more in common with white Evangelical conservatives than with moderate or progressive Catholics.
It’s not all bad, truly, but it’s something we need to be aware of.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
That’s very interesting. I don’t know that I’ve encountered any Catholics in real life that are YECs. But I can see how that would be different in different places.Here in the Bible Belt South, I’d imagine that more than half of my fellow parishioners are YECs. The Evangelical influence is so strong that we have to remind people that drinking beer or gambling are NOT in and of themselves sins.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.