How many Catholics do you know who are TOTALLY (orthodox) Roman Catholic?

[KindredSoul]

why not?

what is it about Rome they don’t like??

There is nothing about Rome that they do not like. They are in Communion with Rome but they are not of the Latin (or Roman) Catholic Church.

They are Churches in their own right. They sui juris Churches. They have their own dioceses (called eparchies for the most part which is just the greek word for diocese) with their own bishops.

They are not Roman, their traditions and even the form of the Eucharistic Liturgy is different. So would would be incorrect to call me, a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic a Roman Catholic. While I am a member of the universal Catholic Church I am so through the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church.

While I live in Tucson, AZ, the bishop I would follow is not the Roman Catholic Bishop of Tucson, but the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Bishop of Van Nuys whose territory I live in. Even though I am a member of a Roman religious order, I am still a Byzantine Catholic.

I know it is confusing but it is important to get all this correct rather than thinking that the Roman Church is the Catholic Church, it is just one of (though it is the largest) the 22 separate Churches that are in Communion with each other that make up the universal Catholic Church.

It is important to define our terms: As I understand, what many Catholics mean by “Roman” Catholic is that all the churches belonging to the One True Church adhere ultimately to the teaching and apostolic authority of the Pope in Rome. As ByzCath has demonstrated, that does not mean that they are all in the Latin (Roman) Rite of the Church. Although “Roman Catholic” has become for many Catholics a shorthand for “Catholics in union with the Pope” (as opposed to members of schismatic organizations such as the “Old Catholic Church” or the Orthodox Church, who also consider themselves “Catholic”), it must be understood in context; insofar as it denotes true and faithful Catholics, it has nothing to do with whether or not a given Catholic is in the Latin (Roman) Rite, but rather with whether or not a given Catholic’s dogmatic and moral beliefs are in line with those held infallibly by the bishop of Rome. There is nothing whatsoever less orthodox or faithful about a Byzantine Catholic, or a member of any other non-Latin Catholic Rite, than about a Latin Rite Catholic.

I suppose a good rule of thumb is that “Roman Catholic” is a term better used externally to differentiate Catholics from Orthodox or schismatics, but not so much a good term to be used internally in such a sweeping manner, since it implicitly (though probably not often intentionally) ignores that the Roman Rite is not the only legitimate one in union with the Pope.

That said, I believe the title of this thread works if it is interpreted in the external context; that interpretation was what I initially assumed was the intention of the OP. If, on the other hand, it was intended to mean that only Latin Rite Catholics are true Catholics, the Pope, the very bishop of Rome himself, would disagree with that assertion.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[KindredSoul]

As for my answer to the on-topic question, I cannot really say how many truly believing Catholics I know. I assume the majority of those I meet are such, simply because I do not know many of them on a “talk on the phone” basis and so I rarely am in a situation where I would know if they did dissent from the Church on solemnly defined teachings. I believe in the spirit of not judging, I should assume that these people are innocent of dissent until proven guilty…that is, until I hear them say or clearly demonstrate that they disagree with the Church’s teachings, I will assume they do not.

That’s not to say I don’t often feel lonely and isolated as a believing Catholic…as I said, I do not know many of them on a “talk on the phone” basis, even though we relate to one another quite warmly at church. Catholics are rare in my area in the first place, along with the fact that such close relationships simply haven’t developed with many of the Catholics I do, partly because I’m introverted and find the first step in forming “talk to em’ all the time and not only at church” relationships (the small talk phase) to be potentially awkward and hard to form into something deeper unless it happens naturally.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It is important to define our terms: As I understand, what many Catholics mean by “Roman” Catholic is that all the churches belonging to the One True Church adhere ultimately to the teaching and apostolic authority of the Pope in Rome. As ByzCath has demonstrated, that does not mean that they are all in the Latin (Roman) Rite of the Church. Although “Roman Catholic” has become for many Catholics a shorthand for “Catholics in union with the Pope” (as opposed to members of schismatic organizations such as the “Old Catholic Church” or the Orthodox Church, who also consider themselves “Catholic”), it must be understood in context; insofar as it denotes true and faithful Catholics, it has nothing to do with whether or not a given Catholic is in the Latin (Roman) Rite, but rather with whether or not a given Catholic’s dogmatic and moral beliefs are in line with those held infallibly by the bishop of Rome. There is nothing whatsoever less orthodox or faithful about a Byzantine Catholic, or a member of any other non-Latin Catholic Rite, than about a Latin Rite Catholic.

I suppose a good rule of thumb is that “Roman Catholic” is a term better used externally to differentiate Catholics from Orthodox or schismatics, but not so much a good term to be used internally in such a sweeping manner, since it implicitly (though probably not often intentionally) ignores that the Roman Rite is not the only legitimate one in union with the Pope.

That said, I believe the title of this thread works if it is interpreted in the external context; that interpretation was what I initially assumed was the intention of the OP. If, on the other hand, it was intended to mean that only Latin Rite Catholics are true Catholics, the Pope, the very bishop of Rome himself, would disagree with that assertion.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

As a Byzantine Catholic I do not accept that the term “Roman Catholic” means “true and faithful Catholics, it has nothing to do with whether or not a given Catholic is in the Latin (Roman) Rite, but rather with whether or not a given Catholic’s dogmatic and moral beliefs are in line with those held infallibly by the bishop of Rome.”

I am a Catholic, never a Roman Catholic.

We must be precise in our usage of language. A Byzantine Catholic is not a Roman Catholic. For me, Roman Catholic denotes a member of the Latin (or Roman) Catholic Church, of which I am not, but I am Catholic.

Most, if not all, of us who are not members of the Roman Catholic Church feel much the same way and do not call ourselves Roman in any way.

 

[KindredSoul]

As a Byzantine Catholic I do not accept that the term “Roman Catholic” means “true and faithful Catholics”

Nor do I assert that is what it means, at least not when correctly used; I do not use the term that way, myself, but I simply recognize that this is how many Latin Catholics do use it, and for my part I understand that this is all they mean by it. Thus they already are quite aware that a Catholic doesn’t have to be in the Latin Rite to be orthodox, as that’s not what they mean when they use the term, whether they are using it correctly or not. That’s all I’m saying. Given his/her responses to you, the OP may be an exception to that generality, though…I can’t tell.

As for me personally, I do not like the term “Roman Catholic” as a catch-all term either, and I cringe when people use it, but even if not for this issue I would still be uncomfortable with it for different reasons: Because often anti-Catholics (and even some otherwise relatively Catholic-friendly Protestants) use the term “Roman” to emphasize that they don’t believe the Catholic Church in communion with the Pope is the true Catholic Church (which they believe to be an “invisible Church of all Bible believers”), but rather a religion “invented by Rome.” So badly have some anti-Catholics painted the term that, even when I am referring to my specific Rite, I’d rather say “Latin” than “Roman,” unless I specifically say “Roman Rite.” Of course, even otherwise I wouldn’t use “Roman Catholic” as a catch-all term for all faithful Catholics in Communion with Rome, simply because I am quite aware that non-Latin Catholics would not identify that way.

All Catholics in Communion with the Pope hold the same complete Catholic Faith, regardless of differences from Rite to Rite.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Nor do I assert that is what it means, at least not when correctly used; I do not use the term that way, myself, but I simply recognize that this is how many Latin Catholics do use it, and for my part I understand that this is all they mean by it. Thus they already are quite aware that a Catholic doesn’t have to be in the Latin Rite to be orthodox, as that’s not what they mean when they use the term, whether they are using it correctly or not. That’s all I’m saying. Given his/her responses to you, the OP may be an exception to that generality, though…I can’t tell.

As for me personally, I do not like the term “Roman Catholic” as a catch-all term either, and I cringe when people use it, but even if not for this issue I would still be uncomfortable with it for different reasons: Because often anti-Catholics (and even some otherwise relatively Catholic-friendly Protestants) use the term “Roman” to emphasize that they don’t believe the Catholic Church in communion with the Pope is the true Catholic Church (which they believe to be an “invisible Church of all Bible believers”), but rather a religion “invented by Rome.” So badly have some anti-Catholics painted the term that, even when I am referring to my specific Rite, I’d rather say “Latin” than “Roman,” unless I specifically say “Roman Rite.” Of course, even otherwise I wouldn’t use “Roman Catholic” as a catch-all term for all faithful Catholics in Communion with Rome, simply because I am quite aware that non-Latin Catholics would not identify that way.

All Catholics in Communion with the Pope hold the same complete Catholic Faith, regardless of differences from Rite to Rite.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

Thanks for the clarification and putting up with my misconception.

I apologize for any offense I may have caused.

You are right that many Latin Catholics use the term Roman Catholic in that way and they does so for one of two reasons (in my experience that is), 1) they are unaware of the other Catholic Churches (most fall into this group) or 2) they view the Latin Church as superior and all others just pale imitations, that Catholics of those Churches are really just Roman Catholics with a funny Mass.

 

[KindredSoul]

Thanks for the clarification and putting up with my misconception.

I apologize for any offense I may have caused.

You are right that many Latin Catholics use the term Roman Catholic in that way and they does so for one of two reasons (in my experience that is), 1) they are unaware of the other Catholic Churches (most fall into this group) or 2) they view the Latin Church as superior and all others just pale imitations, that Catholics of those Churches are really just Roman Catholics with a funny Mass.

No problem, Brother. No offense taken.

I also believe, based upon my own experience with other Catholics in the Latin Rite, that there is often a 3rd reason too, which is not very complex at all: Many are simply using the term without really thinking about all possible implications, and even though they are aware of the other Catholic Churches, they aren’t really thinking of the term deeply enough to imply a deliberate attitude of Latin superiority.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[Anthony_Joseph]

There are several rites within Holy Mother Church who are all equally valid and in communion with Rome. Of the Catholic Rites none is greater than the other from what I’ve learned. I’m not sure what all the differences between the rites are but I do know that if they are loyal to the Chair of Peter, they are Catholic.

 

[JoanREDirector]

The ones I pity are the ones (some still in positions of authority) who drank the 70’s koolaid. Some were sincerely trying to do what was best. They invested their lives trying to make this “new vision” a happy reality. How sad to have to admit their life’s work was a failure.

not sure i u/stand this last comment?

Just once, when I was new to this site, I had a post edited and I got a reprimand for making a general statement that appeared to be critical of United States Catholic bishops. I agreed then and I agree now that the moderators were right to do what they did. I don’t ever want to make that mistake again.

Bishops are ultimately responsible for catachesis in their dioceses. They can’t possibily oversee the day to day administration of such things so they hire professionals to do the work. I have no reason to think that these bishops and their workers didn’t try to do the best that they could. But the fruits of their labors …? We could have a discussion on how we can do better.

 

[distracted]

bishops… dioceses. They can’t possibily oversee the day to day administration of such things so they hire professionals to do the work. I have no reason to think that these bishops and their workers didn’t try to do the best that they could. But the fruits of their labors …? We could have a discussion on how we can do better.

i don’t see a lot of good fruits in the Church these days (if that’s waht you mean??)

i think one strength Protestant churches have is their seeming charity (friendliness toward one another)…

Also, PRotestants (generally speaking, not all of them) seem to really try hard to LIVE by the word… True, they pick and choose which parts they wnt to adhere to … and that’s bad…

but Catholics… They often seem to think that if they go to Church once in awhile… they are OK… When they leave the Church, they are right back to their worldly, unCrhsitian ways… as if nothing happened… and maybe nothing did happen during mass if all they di was…

In One Ear and Out the Other…

that’s waht things seem like to me… when i look at those fruits (that we will “know them by”…) …

its almost like its human nature to beleive in the false teaching of OnceSavedAlwaysSAved… The Cathlic verson of OSAS is: do whatever you want, you can always go to confession… and if you can’t make it to confession. … well, hey, everyone else in the world is doing [fill in the blanks]… so it must not be a big deal with God anyhow…

 

[rep140]

i don’t see a lot of good fruits in the Church these days (if that’s waht you mean??)

i think one strength Protestant churches have is their seeming charity (friendliness toward one another)…

Also, PRotestants (generally speaking, not all of them) seem to really try hard to LIVE by the word… True, they pick and choose which parts they wnt to adhere to … and that’s bad…

but Catholics… They often seem to think that if they go to Church once in awhile… they are OK… When they leave the Church, they are right back to their worldly, unCrhsitian ways… as if nothing happened… and maybe nothing did happen during mass if all they di was…

In One Ear and Out the Other…

that’s waht things seem like to me… when i look at those fruits (that we will “know them by”…) …

its almost like its human nature to beleive in the false teaching of OnceSavedAlwaysSAved… The Cathlic verson of OSAS is: do whatever you want, you can always go to confession… and if you can’t make it to confession. … well, hey, everyone else in the world is doing [fill in the blanks]… so it must not be a big deal with God anyhow…

 

[rep140]

i don’t see a lot of good fruits in the Church these days (if that’s waht you mean??)

i think one strength Protestant churches have is their seeming charity (friendliness toward one another)…

Also, PRotestants (generally speaking, not all of them) seem to really try hard to LIVE by the word… True, they pick and choose which parts they wnt to adhere to … and that’s bad…

but Catholics… They often seem to think that if they go to Church once in awhile… they are OK… When they leave the Church, they are right back to their worldly, unCrhsitian ways… as if nothing happened… and maybe nothing did happen during mass if all they di was…

In One Ear and Out the Other…

This is probably the best post I’ve seen here. Dietrich Bonhoffer wrote “The Cost of Discipleship” and it speaks of cheap grace. This is something that afflicts many Catholics. From Catholics I know most contracept during their fertile years. We had a visiting Franciscan at Mass 2 weeks ago. Before communion he asked people who have missed Mass without confession or those who live with someone without the benefit of marriage not to come to communion. Probably most of the people who were at Mass did not fit these categories. He never asked about contraception.

A real squawk I have is holy days of obligation. It varies from diocese and we have a real jerk of a bishop. We have all the holy days. I can’t believe this joker is condemning us to hell while the guy 90 miles down the interstate isn’t. BTW, he waives eating meat on Friday in lent because he is at a market opening on St. Pat’s day.

We are lead by a bunch of jokers. They are lucky we sit in the pews and pray and pay.

that’s waht things seem like to me… when i look at those fruits (that we will “know them by”…) …

its almost like its human nature to beleive in the false teaching of OnceSavedAlwaysSAved… The Cathlic verson of OSAS is: do whatever you want, you can always go to confession… and if you can’t make it to confession. … well, hey, everyone else in the world is doing [fill in the blanks]… so it must not be a big deal with God anyhow…

 

[rep140]

Sorry about the last reply if it is confusing. I can’t figure out this system.

 

[distracted]

Sorry about the last reply if it is confusing. I can’t figure out this system.

what do you not understand about it?

i know how you feel… Whne i first came here, i was lost myself… but its easier to figure out than some sites i’ve been to… :banghead: and other posters are willing to help,

such as me…

 

[JoanREDirector]

i don’t see a lot of good fruits in the Church these days (if that’s waht you mean??)

i think one strength Protestant churches have is their seeming charity (friendliness toward one another)…

Also, PRotestants (generally speaking, not all of them) seem to really try hard to LIVE by the word… True, they pick and choose which parts they wnt to adhere to … and that’s bad…

but Catholics… They often seem to think that if they go to Church once in awhile… they are OK… When they leave the Church, they are right back to their worldly, unCrhsitian ways… as if nothing happened… and maybe nothing did happen during mass if all they di was…

In One Ear and Out the Other…

that’s waht things seem like to me… when i look at those fruits (that we will “know them by”…) …

its almost like its human nature to beleive in the false teaching of OnceSavedAlwaysSAved… The Cathlic verson of OSAS is: do whatever you want, you can always go to confession… and if you can’t make it to confession. … well, hey, everyone else in the world is doing [fill in the blanks]… so it must not be a big deal with God anyhow…

I love the Church and have complete confidence that the Holy Spirit abides in her as Jesus promised. We may be sinful, unruly members but our all powerful, all loving, and all seeing God turns any situation to good and uses it in the end to show His glory.

We may be lacking the fruits of good catechesis at this time but (to push the metaphor) our loving God prunes the vine that we wrecked in ignorace and pride. We may have to wait in hunger for the Word but the fruit, when it comes in His time, is more sweet and abundant than ever and our appreciation is more keen.

I have great peace in the arms of my mother the Church. I know that she holds me safe in times of storm and famine. She holds you too. Look with mercy at sinners as Jesus does. I know it’s hard to do when you see starving lambs but a catechist’s job is to feed them. God’s only Son came to deal with the unworthy stewards of the vineyard once. The Son gave up His life but he rose and He’s coming back. Believe that He will deal out justice. I want Him to find me feeding the lambs as best I can because He will deal out justice to me too.

Remember the folks you criticize are lambs too. Feed them, don’t fight them.

 

[distracted]

I love the Church and have complete confidence that the Holy Spirit abides in her as Jesus promised. We may be sinful, unruly members but our all powerful, all loving, and all seeing God turns any situation to good and uses it in the end to show His glory.

We may be lacking the fruits of good catechesis at this time but (to push the metaphor) our loving God prunes the vine that we wrecked in ignorace and pride. We may have to wait in hunger for the Word but the fruit, when it comes in His time, is more sweet and abundant than ever and our appreciation is more keen.

I have great peace in the arms of my mother the Church. I know that she holds me safe in times of storm and famine. She holds you too. Look with mercy at sinners as Jesus does. I know it’s hard to do when you see starving lambs but a catechist’s job is to feed them. God’s only Son came to deal with the unworthy stewards of the vineyard once. The Son gave up His life but he rose and He’s coming back. Believe that He will deal out justice. I want Him to find me feeding the lambs as best I can because He will deal out justice to me too.

Remember the folks you criticize are lambs too. Feed them, don’t fight them.

i don’t criticize anyone (except in my mind)

and i am sorry but I’m not going to make excuses for certain kinds of sins… like treatin people like dirt… there’s no excuse for A Christian doing that… I don’t preach at people when they do that or tell them they are Satan or whatever… but i am also not going to “be loving” and act like what they are doing is nothing…

Feed them? some of the worst ones are the ones who are being fed the most… go to Mass, etc…

they are getting fed… they don’t need anything from me - and don’t appreciate it when they get it…

 

[JoanREDirector]

i don’t criticize anyone (except in my mind)

and i am sorry but I’m not going to make excuses for certain kinds of sins… like treatin people like dirt… there’s no excuse for A Christian doing that… I don’t preach at people when they do that or tell them they are Satan or whatever… but i am also not going to “be loving” and act like what they are doing is nothing…

Feed them? some of the worst ones are the ones who are being fed the most… go to Mass, etc…

they are getting fed… they don’t need anything from me - and don’t appreciate it when they get it…

Dear Distracted;

Who’s treating you like dirt? That would make me mad too.

 

[MeConcupiscence]

We must remember that we are of one body! and none free from error!

 

[James_Miller]

100% of the seminarians at the Infant Mary Seminary of the Malankara Catholic Church in Thiruvalla, Kerala.

 

[distracted]

Dear Distracted;

Who’s treating you like dirt? That would make me mad too.

try everyone…

and i am NOT exaggerating…

no one likes a Goody-2-Shoes… so called…

and as for my family… well, i may be the only Good2Shoes Fanatic there…

its actually a long story…

but i no longer feel sorry for myself, to speak of… because, well…

who needs friends like that?? Who needs friends who don’t love Jesus very much??

Thanks for your concern…

assuming its real…

and i don’t assume much of anything anymore… I’m quite the cynic…

God bless…

 

[distracted]

100% of the seminarians at the Infant Mary Seminary of the Malankara Catholic Church in Thiruvalla, Kerala.

India? one of the most un-Catholic nations on Earth??
hmmm…

i wish they’d send some of their priests to this contry… where so many priests are NOT orhtodox…