How many Catholics think this way?

[Sepharad]

how convenient to separate the two and see the difference between the Spaniards and the Church But jet you can’t separate then when it come to accuse them of a crime who was done by the Spanish Monarchy and you insist it was the Church just because they were Catholics:shrug:

I have a question for you: Why did the Pope not stop them?

Surely, Ferdinand and Isabella, as devout and committed they were as Catholics, would have obeyed the Pope, would they not?

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve always noticed the difference, its just that no one was paying attention other than Lapell!

And if you’ll read one of the links I posted, you’ll see that Spaniards to this day are still riddled with what the author calls Judeophobia.

There are lots of individuals with various different prejudices. But to say that “all Spaniards” do this or that, or that it is characteristic of Spaniards to do this or that (other than things like living in Spain, speaking Spanish, and participating in Spanish culture) is, itself, prejudiced, and no better than the people you’re criticizing.

 

[Eden]

I have a question for you: Why did the Pope not stop them?

Surely, Ferdinand and Isabella, as devout and committed they were as Catholics, would have obeyed the Pope, would they not?

No. This is a myth that the Pope had control over temporal rulers. Usually, he did not, unfortunately. Yes, he could try to exert influence on them, but he was frequently ignored. Maybe today’s equivalent would be to say, why do Catholic politicians support abortion rights? Surely, if the Pope truly believed abortion is wrong, he would be able to get Catholic politicians to obey his Pro-Life teachings? So, now just as then, the Pope has only so much power to influence “Catholic” leaders to live as Catholics in political life.

From “The “Black Legend”: The Spanish Inquisition**”:**

"In 1478, Ferdinand and Isabella requested a papal bull establishing an inquisition, a bull granted by Pope Sixtus IV. In 1482 the size of the inquisition was expanded and included the Dominican Friar Tomas de Torquemada, though Pope Sixtus IV protested against the activities of the inquisition in Aragon and its treatment of the conversos. The next year, Ferdinand and Isabella established a state council to administer the Inquisition with Torquemada as its president. He would later assume the title of Inquisitor-General. This allowed the inquisition to persist well beyond its initial intention. The papacy would continue to complain about the treatment of the conversos, but the unity of the Spanish Inquisition with the State would remain a distinguishing characteristic, and a primary source of post-Reformation European hatred…

The papacy, under Sixtus IV (1471-1484) and Innocent VIII (1484-1492), rather than controlling the Spanish Inquisition, protested its unfair treatment of the conversos with little result.

catholicleague.org/research/blacklegend.htm

 

[Deconi]

Funny,…

Some decry the preposterous notion of The Catholic Church ‘suppressing’ things within the U.S. and then in the same thread ASK why didn’t the Pope stop rulers of countries from…uhm…RULING???

Because the king and queen of Spain were Catholics, they did not ERADICATE non-Christians, Roman style!! How many rulers of history simply expell citizens from their countries instead of putting them to the sword??..or threat of?

 

[Kaninchen]

Not at all. The Medieval people believed there were 153 countries in the world (based on something by St. Jerome), so that’s the figure I used - it’s certainly not all that far off, anyway.

Or not, as the case may be.

Italy, Spain, France, England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Portugal, Holland, and probably Poland, unless it was EO at that time.

As (name removed by moderator) pointed out, this is an equally mythological concept.

 

[Sepharad]

Funny,…

Some decry the preposterous notion of The Catholic Church ‘suppressing’ things within the U.S. and then in the same thread ASK why didn’t the Pope stop rulers of countries from…uhm…RULING???

Because the king and queen of Spain were Catholics, they did not ERADICATE non-Christians, Roman style!! How many rulers of history simply expell citizens from their countries instead of putting them to the sword??..or threat of?

You forget something: the USA and many other countries today have separation of church and state. Most European countries in the Middle Ages did not. This is how F&I were able to force Jews to either convert or leave.

And using the analogy of the Pope trying to get US Catholic pols to oppose abortion forgets certain factors…in the USA we separate politics and religion, or we try very hard to. Plus. I think most of us are aware that any “Catholic” politician who supports abortion is not truly a devout Catholic, or at the very least is a liberal Catholic.

F&I were among the devoutest of the devout. The 1940s Catholic school textbook I actually used for teaching my daughter in homeschool (published by TAN) states that Isabella especially was extremely devout as a Catholic. So I am SURE she would have obeyed the Pope if he had in fact demanded she stop expelling Jews or forcing them to convert.

I really don’t think Isabella would be on the same level as, say, Geraldine Ferraro or Henry VIII.

 

[Sepharad]

Funny,…

Some decry the preposterous notion of The Catholic Church ‘suppressing’ things within the U.S. and then in the same thread ASK why didn’t the Pope stop rulers of countries from…uhm…RULING???

Because the king and queen of Spain were Catholics, they did not ERADICATE non-Christians, Roman style!! How many rulers of history simply expell citizens from their countries instead of putting them to the sword??..or threat of?

So in other words, those of us who are non-Christians should be grateful that “all” they did was expel us (but not, of course, before demanding we leave all our worldly goods behind to enrich the coffers of the Spanish government)?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Funny,…

Some decry the preposterous notion of The Catholic Church ‘suppressing’ things within the U.S. and then in the same thread ASK why didn’t the Pope stop rulers of countries from…uhm…RULING???

Because the king and queen of Spain were Catholics, they did not ERADICATE non-Christians, Roman style!! How many rulers of history simply expell citizens from their countries instead of putting them to the sword??..or threat of?


Sepharad;3932889:

So in other words, those of us who are non-Christians should be grateful that “all” they did was expel us (but not, of course, before demanding we leave all our worldly goods behind to enrich the coffers of the Spanish government)?

Deaconi was stating facts. He was not asking you to be greatful.
It is a fact the states tortured and killed people who did not adhere to the state religion. Christians were tortured and executed for not renouncing Jesus as the Messiah by Roman emperors. Nero used Christians as human torches. St. Lawrence was roasted on a spit. St Peter is reputed to have been crucified upside down because he did not feel worthy to share the same death as Jeses. Many Christians were sewn into animal skins to be devoured by wild beasts for public entertainment.

Christians were even persecuted by SOME Jews in 523
In the sixth century the Christians were brutally persecuted by the Jewish King Dunaan, at least five thousand were executed

"*Yūsuf Dhū Nuwas, (Arabic: يوسف ذي نواس) (also called Yūsuf Asar Dhū Nuwas[citation needed], Dhu Nowas and Dhu Nu’as[1] and Dunaan[2]); fl. 510s) was the last king of the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen.

Dhū Nuwas announced that he would persecute the Christians living in his kingdom because Christian states persecuted his fellow co-religionists in their realms; a letter survives written by Simon, the bishop of Beth Arsham in 524 CE, recounts Dhū Nuwas’ (where he is called Dimnon) persecution in Najran (modern al-Ukhdud in Saudi Arabia).[4] The persecution is apparently described and condemned in the Qur’an (al-Buruj:4).

According to the contemporary sources, after seizing the throne of the Himyarites, in ca. 518 or 523 Dhū Nuwas attacked the Aksumite (mainly Christian) garrison at Zafar, capturing them and burning their churches. He then moved against Najran, a Christian and Aksumite stronghold. After accepting the city’s capitulation, he massacred those inhabitants who would not renounce Christianity.** Estimates of the death toll from this event range up to 20,000 in some sources.***

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_Nuwas

So PLEASE, has the OP been answered? We could sling mud all over the place.

 

[peary]

I have meet Jews who hated me. The word Goy comes to mind. Just because WWII happened does not give every Jewish guy from a poor neighborhood the excuse to be racist against everyone else. Racism is wrong no matter who does it. I have enough to worry about with Billy Bob Baptist burning Crosses in my front yard and don’t need to be hearing Goy thrown around. I understand enough Hebrew to know what it means.

**What the heck is a goy?? **

Catholicism is a Semetic Religion. Our first Liturgical Language was Syriac and it continues to be used by most Semetic Catholics to this day.

**I thought it was Aramaic. **

Catholics worship a Jewish man as GOD. I could argue that random protestant 5673 who hates Catholics is Anti-Semetic because Catholicism is a Semetic Religion. Israel was WRONG to expell the Catholics. They are still wrong for not allowing Catholics to return. They are wrong for occupying our Churches and for desecrating our sanctuaries. This is objectively wrong, only someone who is blindly anti-Catholic or blindly Pro-Israel will not see that.

Huh? Please elaborate on the historical veracity of this. This is the first time I have heard this.

What was wrong with the Spanish Inquisition? They tortured people. The gave entire towns intense fear at a time. But, they did not kill anyone. The expelled people from Spain, they siezed property, they tortured, the separated families and they impossed sever mental damage but they did not kill anyone. Now, they didn’t have to kill anyone to be going completely outside the limits of what they were allowed to do. They broke those limits many times and were called to task by the Pope. Don’t believe me… Then learn Latin and read the Documents for yourself. Or better yet, show me one piece of proof tha the black legend invented in England at a time when they were at war with Spain is true. If we actually look at Spain’s record and the record of the Protestant kingdoms, most notably English, we will see that Spain was the much better place to be. English slaughter Catholics and Jews publically for entertainment and the killings went into the Houndreds in a day and the thousands in a year. This is public record. Spain’s hands are remarkably clean compared to England. But everyone wants to see England as Good and Catholics as bad, so you lie. Shame on you if you do that.

**I have to agree. **

And I do stand by what I wrote earlier. Government should supress fake religions that preach violence, racism and hate.

One would find that difficult to do in the U.S. with first amendment rights. If the action is not there, prosecution cannot proceed efficiently. You cannot create a “thought police” and expect other liberties to continue to exist.

 

[Sepharad]

Eden,

I’d never heard of this King before, and since your link was from Wikipedia, I decided to Google him to see what I could find.

I only found info on him at Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Muslim sites. I found nothing at impartial/secular, or Jewish sites. I even checked the online Jewish Encyclopedia.

I’m not saying what you posted is incorrect; I just wanted to see what was said about him by secular and/or Jewish sources, but found nothing. I’d rather see how he is portrayed by both sides, rather than just rely on one side’s “spin”, so to speak, on it.

In one piece you posted, it said he did that because of the Christian persecutions of Jews, so it doesn’t seem as if he did it out of the blue (but regardless, it was absolutely wrong for him to do it even if he felt justified as payback!)

But if that was the only real major case of Jews killing Christians en masse you could find, I’d say in light of the much more involved, much longer history of Christians persecuting Jews, we’ve been doing a far better job of turning the other cheek than Christians have.

 

[Sepharad]

peary: “Goy” is a Hebrew word which means, “nation”. Plural is “goyim”, meaning, “nations.”

It is a term used to refer to ANY group of people, including the Jewish people (in the Torah the Jews are referred to in the original Hebrew as a “goy kadosh”, or “holy nation”.)

In modern times it is usually but not exclusively used to mean a member of a non-Jewish, or Gentile people.

 

[qui_est_ce]

But if that was the only real major case of Jews killing Christians en masse you could find, I’d say in light of the much more involved, much longer history of Christians persecuting Jews, we’ve been doing a far better job of turning the other cheek than Christians have.

Is this thread about atrocities against nations or about the OP

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

Has the OP been answered? YES! You haven’t found a SINGLE person here who agrees with that statement, and more importantly it has been proven to you that the Catholic Church does not teach this.

---

 

[Lapell]

you didn’t answer my question you said you don’t like catholics because the mistreated your ancestor in the Spanish Inquisition but everyone here have giving you prove that it wasn’t the Church it was the Spanish Monarchy who happen to be Catholics, but I see hating the Holy RCC and I was wandering if you hate Spain or the Spanish People since after all it was their King and Queen who started the inquisition, can you tell me if you do hate them too.

Where did Sepharad say that she doesn’t like Catholics? or what makes you say that?

 

[Lapell]

There are lots of individuals with various different prejudices. But to say that “all Spaniards” do this or that, or that it is characteristic of Spaniards to do this or that (other than things like living in Spain, speaking Spanish, and participating in Spanish culture) is, itself, prejudiced, and no better than the people you’re criticizing.

Where did you read that she said “all Spaniards”?

 

[Lapell]

peary: “Goy” is a Hebrew word which means, “nation”. Plural is “goyim”, meaning, “nations.”

It is a term used to refer to ANY group of people, including the Jewish people (in the Torah the Jews are referred to in the original Hebrew as a “goy kadosh”, or “holy nation”.)

In modern times it is usually but not exclusively used to mean a member of a non-Jewish, or Gentile people.

It’s the very first time I hear or read that the word “goy” can be said about the Jewish people. Have you ever personally heard it (other than from a reading of the Torah) when it would not designate non-Jews exclusively?

 

[Sepharad]

It’s the very first time I hear or read that the word “goy” can be said about the Jewish people. Have you ever personally heard it (other than from a reading of the Torah) when it would not designate non-Jews exclusively?

Yes I have, many times, often in sermons by Orthodox rabbis. Its used quite a bit to refer to the Jewish people. Unfortunately, the true meaning of the term has been misunderstood because so many Jews will use it as a catch all term for Gentiles, and so many people assume it means *only *Gentiles.

 

[Lapell]

Yes I have, many times, often in sermons by Orthodox rabbis. Its used quite a bit to refer to the Jewish people. Unfortunately, the true meaning of the term has been misunderstood because so many Jews will use it as a catch all term for Gentiles, and so many people assume it means *only *Gentiles.

Well, I have learned something…

 

[Eden]

Eden,

I’d never heard of this King before, and since your link was from Wikipedia, I decided to Google him to see what I could find.

My link was to the Catholic League website. What king do you mean? I think you are confusing me with another poster, Qui est ce post #232 perhaps?

 

[Sepharad]

My link was to the Catholic League website. What king do you mean? I think you are confusing me with another poster, Qui est ce post #232 perhaps?

I’m sorry! Yes, you’re right!

 

[Eden]

I’m sorry! Yes, you’re right!

I thought so! No problem.