How many Catholics think this way?

[qui_est_ce]

I find this statement so funny and yet so arrogant at the same time. It really disgusts me that Catholics think this way. I am a former Catholic converted

Your profile state you are Catholic - you are guilty of false witness. Oops - am I being judgemental?

to a Methodist

Can you tell me who started the Methodist Church Church. The Methodist movement traces its origin to the evangelical awakening in 18th century Great Britain. Methodism followed from the work of John Wesley

The Catholic Church claims to be infaliable and they go one step further claiming the Pope is infaliable. The only thing that is infaliable is God Himself, not a church run by men or a man who runs the church.

The Church is run by the Holy Spirit working through it’s members. You know the part about Peter getting the keys? Matt 16:18?

Yes I acknowldge that the Catholic Church was the first church although not known as the Catholic church back then)

Did you know that the word “catholic” came into use in 106 by St. Ignatious of Antioch in his letters to the Smyrnaeans?

but the Church is not infaliable.

Why should I believe you? I believe Jesus when he told Peter he was Rock and gave him the keys.

What happend to the idea of limbo? This was not a doctrine but was a very highly held belief yet the Catholic Church came out last year and said “we are doing away with the idea”.

Could you provide me with a source for that quote, please? Also, can you tell me which kind of Methodist you are? I had trouble when I looked it up because there are several branches. Why is that?

Anyway, the point of this post is, if you believe that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church then you are nuts! By the way, isnt that known as judging? Shouldnt be doing that:shrug:

:hypno: that’s me.

Nowhere does the Church say you must be Catholic in order to be saved, so I don’t know where you get the judgement thing. The statement that salvation is in the CC means that the Church has guarded the fullness Truth handed her by Jesus himself. If there had been no CC, you would have no Bible today, and you certainly wouldn’t have a Methodist Church, because knowledge of all things Christian would have been long forgotten.

 

[Lapell]

Your profile state you are Catholic - you are guilty of false witness. Oops - am I being judgemental?

Say, did somebody elsewhere inspire you this one?

 

[Lapell]

I find this statement so funny and yet so arrogant at the same time. It really disgusts me that Catholics think this way. I am a former Catholic converted to a Methodist Church. I cant believe that I used to think the Catholic Church is the only REAL church there is.

The Catholic Church claims to be infaliable and they go one step further claiming the Pope is infaliable. The only thing that is infaliable is God Himself, not a church run by men or a man who runs the church. Yes I acknowldge that the Catholic Church was the first church (although not known as the Catholic church back then) but the Church is not infaliable. What happend to the idea of limbo? This was not a doctrine but was a very highly held belief yet the Catholic Church came out last year and said “we are doing away with the idea”.

Anyway, the point of this post is, if you believe that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church then you are nuts! By the way, isnt that known as judging? Shouldnt be doing that:shrug:

Dear Drew C, the “Outside the Church there is no salvation” statement has more inclusive implications than you would think from the wording of it. Look into the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, par. 846-7-8 !!
Then, about the infallibility of the pope, it’s not about everything in him, it’s only regarding his teaching office on faith and morals, NOTHING ELSE, O.K.? As for the rest, he can fall into sin just like the rest of us. That’s what it truly means. And you understood something else from that expression, please delete it!
God bless you!

 

[Aydan]

Bravo I couldn’t have said it better myself:clapping: :bowdown: . Guys like Drew C. are why I ran away from the Protestant churches I have of family full of Protestants in my own godmother is a former Catholic who now vehemently opposes the Catholic Church every time I hear arguments such as these it just makes me that much more grateful that I’m Catholic and that I can enjoy the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Your profile state you are Catholic - you are guilty of false witness. Oops - am I being judgemental? Can you tell me who started the Methodist Church Church. The Methodist movement traces its origin to the evangelical awakening in 18th century Great Britain. Methodism followed from the work of John Wesley
The Church is run by the Holy Spirit working through it’s members. You know the part about Peter getting the keys? Matt 16:18? Did you know that the word “catholic” came into use in 106 by St. Ignatious of Antioch in his letters to the Smyrnaeans?
Why should I believe you? I believe Jesus when he told Peter he was Rock and gave him the keys. Could you provide me with a source for that quote, please? Also, can you tell me which kind of Methodist you are? I had trouble when I looked it up because there are several branches. Why is that?
:hypno: that’s me.

Nowhere does the Church say you must be Catholic in order to be saved, so I don’t know where you get the judgement thing. The statement that salvation is in the CC means that the Church has guarded the fullness Truth handed her by Jesus himself. If there had been no CC, you would have no Bible today, and you certainly wouldn’t have a Methodist Church, because knowledge of all things Christian would have been long forgotten.

 

[Sepharad]

Sepharad do you have any more resources on the history of the Zionist movement that first web site you provided was good information but I still don’t understand the whole Zionist movement very well. As a matter of fact I’d never heard of it until you talked about it I’ve had Zionist was what Muslim extremist called Jewish people.

The first zionists were actually antireligious Jews who sought to use zionism to pull Jews away from keeping Torah. Consequently, many (non-religious) Jews today feel that as long as they act as cheerleaders for the zionist entity every now and then and send it money, they have done their duty to Judaism, and don’t have to keep Torah.

This is why the very religious Jews reject zionism…because, like communism, it was set up to be a vehicle to draw Jews away from Judaism. The whole issue is very complicated, but if you click around that site I gave you, and also nkusa.org you can find out the fuller picture.

I always found it interesting that zionism is actually the n umber one cause for antisemitism in the world today…because people see the way the zionists behave toward the Arabs and they think the Jewish religion teaches that. When people professing to be Jews act like barbarians, destroying the homes of poor people, it bring disgrace upon the Jewish religion, even though the Jewish religion has nothing to do with zionism.

 

[Aydan]

wow I did not know any of that very interesting! I will check out those two web sites you gave because I’m very interested in finding out more information about this subject you learn something new everyday . Thanks for information. I have to confess that I was one of those people that thought they were following Judaism because I really don’t know that much about it I’m glad it came up in this discussion.

The first zionists were actually antireligious Jews who sought to use zionism to pull Jews away from keeping Torah. Consequently, many (non-religious) Jews today feel that as long as they act as cheerleaders for the zionist entity every now and then and send it money, they have done their duty to Judaism, and don’t have to keep Torah.

This is why the very religious Jews reject zionism…because, like communism, it was set up to be a vehicle to draw Jews away from Judaism. The whole issue is very complicated, but if you click around that site I gave you, and also nkusa.org you can find out the fuller picture.

I always found it interesting that zionism is actually the n umber one cause for antisemitism in the world today…because people see the way the zionists behave toward the Arabs and they think the Jewish religion teaches that. When people professing to be Jews act like barbarians, destroying the homes of poor people, it bring disgrace upon the Jewish religion, even though the Jewish religion has nothing to do with zionism.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The first zionists were actually antireligious Jews who sought to use zionism to pull Jews away from keeping Torah. Consequently, many (non-religious) Jews today feel that as long as they act as cheerleaders for the zionist entity every now and then and send it money, they have done their duty to Judaism, and don’t have to keep Torah.

This is why the very religious Jews reject zionism…because, like communism, it was set up to be a vehicle to draw Jews away from Judaism. The whole issue is very complicated, but if you click around that site I gave you, and also nkusa.org you can find out the fuller picture.

I always found it interesting that zionism is actually the n umber one cause for antisemitism in the world today…because people see the way the zionists behave toward the Arabs and they think the Jewish religion teaches that. When people professing to be Jews act like barbarians, destroying the homes of poor people, it bring disgrace upon the Jewish religion, even though the Jewish religion has nothing to do with zionism.

This is fascinating. This explains why my Jewish friend is an atheist. Of course wouldn’t be able to explain it as you have.

I think we need you to give a talk to our parish and educate us! Especially the parts about using gender neutral language like “G-d” instead of “He” and “Lord”, etc (which you mentioned elsewhere). If we understood Judaism, we would certainly have a better understanding of our faith

 

[qui_est_ce]

Say, did somebody elsewhere inspire you this one?

Bravo I couldn’t have said it better myself

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown2: :bowdown2:Thank you.

I’ve only been active on CAF for about a year. Amazing, after 12 months, stuff I never heard of just rolls out as second nature.

Guys like Drew C. are why I ran away from the Protestant churches I have of family full of Protestants in my own godmother is a former Catholic who now vehemently opposes the Catholic Church every time I hear arguments such as these it just makes me that much more grateful that I’m Catholic and that I can enjoy the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I know. My mom is Catholic, (she’s 84) and some of the stuff she comes up with makes me cringe. Like, “I don’t need to go to Confession, I don’t commit any sins.”

 

[Sepharad]

This is fascinating. This explains why my Jewish friend is an atheist. Of course wouldn’t be able to explain it as you have.

I think we need you to give a talk to our parish and educate us! Especially the parts about using gender neutral language like “G-d” instead of “He” and “Lord”, etc (which you mentioned elsewhere). If we understood Judaism, we would certainly have a better understanding of our faith

I’m sure your parish could ask a rabbi from Torah Jews Against Zionism to speak on this! They’re in NYC but I’m sure they have reps elsewhere: jewsagainstzionism.com for more info.

As for gender neutrality, most Orthodox Jews use male terminology for Hashem out of habit, but in actuality (and they too recognize this), G-d is both male and female in essence. Jesus even alluded to this when he used feminine imagery in his language when he said, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem…how I would have loved to gather you as a hen gathers her chicks…” (but this is all probably another topic!)

The Shekinah (The Divine Presence) is thought by Jewish mystics to be the feminine aspect of G-d…the Shekinah is also referred to as the Ruach HaKodesh, or Holy Spirit…usually symbolically represented in Jewish thought as a dove (sound familiar?)

 

[thecoach]

I think that in an ideal world, everyone would want to belong to the Catholic (Universal) Church, and so it wouldn’t be a matter for debate.

I also understood that the world we live in is not ideal, and that people have different ideas about the truth, and that forcing a single religion on unbelievers does nothing for anyone.

In that way, I depart from the “traddies” even though I agree with them on a great many other things.

You CANT be serious

 

[ibkc]

You CANT be serious

You disagree with me? You think the Catholic Church SHOULD be forced on everyone? Allrighty then. Actually I think you have misread what I wrote. Slow down, take a few breaths, then re-read.

 

[TDiGaetano]

What has greater value?

The Human Soul

or

The Human Body

 

[rtconstant]

(I want to thank everyone for their responses; I truly do appreciate all of them, esp. those that reassure me that not all Catholics, or even most Catholics, hold the views I was referring to!)

I wanted to address something to CB…you said you grew up in Catholic schools in the USA pre-V2. I have used 1940s and 1950s pre-V2 Catholic school textbooks (to a limited degree) in my homeschooling (I use whatever books I can find that I feel express traditional morality)…and I have noticed in those books a very patriotic American fervor, which is one reason I use them.

When I shared this info with a friend offline who is a Traditionalist Catholic, she said that the church in the 1940s and 1950s (and its textbooks) was “infected with the heresy of Americanism”. Anyone know what she means by that?

What I have figured is that many Traditionalists adhere to what I call the medieval, “Deus vult” mentality, and see the softening of that mentality amongst Catholics in the USA as a “heresy”. Which means they probably see the medieval mindset as the “authentic” Catholic worldview.

I think your friend might have over exagerated that a little. Like Jews in American history have always tried to display their patriotism to show that they believed in the American ideals of freedom as much as Anglo-saxon protestants. Catholics also tried to show that even though they were Catholic they also were all about the “American Dream”.

Actually the Knights of Columbus took the name of Columbus to remind Americans that this land was discovered by a Catholic. Since the major influx of Jews and Catholics into the states started around the same time they followed similar approaches to demonstrate that they were true Americans, as the knee jerk reaction was that Jews as non-Christians and Catholics as papists could not truly be “American”.

The sad thing is that these two groups while being mistrusted were very often at the for front of trying to defend the ideals of the US. For persecuted groups I think that dispite the history they saw in America a hope of something that could become better.

Anyway, I think it was these things that the writers had in mind in the text books you’re refering to. I don’t think they were trying for Americanism or that they really held to an idea that America was G-d’s new chosen nation.

As to Traditionalist Catholics some (not all) Traditionalist see the middle ages as great because of the elevated position The Church enjoyed at that time. Most Traditionalists simply admire the historic methods of devotion of that period but some go overboard and actually start to espouse the cultural ideals of the period as well which don’t really have anything to do with The Faith. As you’ve seen in your discussion of the Spanish Inquisition sometimes it can be difficult to see where prevalent culture ends and Faith begins.

 

[rtconstant]

I know this. If you read back to the posts where I mentioned it, you will see I referenced Catholics (as in Catholic monarchs), not the church itself.

But what baffles me is, Ferdinand and Isabella were known to be devout, committed Catholics. I would think that if the Pope had told them to stop what they were doing, they would have listened.

That leaves me to think one of two things: Either they were not that devout, or the Pope never tried to stop it.

I can see why you would ask these questions. To me I think that this has more to do with politics than anything. I think most people of faith would agree that politics and faith more often than not make for uncomfortable bed fellows.

Leaders of State usually feel obligated to make decisions that are at root immoral. To defend one’s borders one might declare war which ultimately results in the loss of many innocent lives. When riots are happening in the streets a leader is forced to act to restore peace. Usually this involves picking a side or crushing all offenders.

I don’t say any of that to excuse national leaders but it is the nature of the beast so to speak. The very fact that we gather ourselves into groups and draw borders in the sand, implies that we’re saying: “This is ours, you have no right to it, and as we are intentionally excluding ourselves from everyone else we believe our ways are better.” The idea of nations is really at root kind of wrong to begin with.

In the middle ages these ideals were exagerated. The aristocracy and royals in particular viewed themselves and were viewed as “different” than everyone else. The rules didn’t apply to them the way they did to everyone else. Heck they were the rules. I think it is possible that Issabella and Ferdinand did see themselves as devout but being monarchs honestly probably influenced them more.

Monarchs in the middle ages had one approach to perceived threats. Crush it. The most important thing to a monarch is internal stability, outward expansion and solidifying the dynasty. While it is true that the Church was powerful in those days it is sometimes misunderstood that this made it all-powerful. In truth the Church lived in fear of the monarchs surrounding it as much as those monarchs sought its favor to validate their rule and actions.

Look at Henry VIII he was a “devout Catholic” who even wrote treatises defending The Church from protestant reformers. The Pope granted him the title “Defender of the Fatith”, so fervant were his objections to the reformers. Yet when The Church intefered with his actions to solidify his royal line he declared himself head of the church in england which kicked off an avalanche of reformists traditions that really makes Luther in the grand scheme of things seem like a foot note.

To be clear I’m not excusing anything that happened in Spain, nor am I making light of what your family went through just to find a stable home. I’m just saying that we’re taking about a savage past which while having its moments is a period of time I think we can all agree (regardless of religion) we’re better off on this side of. Could The Church have tried to do more for the jews during this time? I say so yes. Still I’m not sure we can really fairly judge all factors of that from where we are today.

However, I do understand though, that you having come from a family that suffered from it could naturally give you a different perspective and I’m not denying that.

 

[Lapell]

What has greater value?

The Human Soul

or

The Human Body

To God Himself, both are important, aren’t they?

 

[Lapell]

I can see why you would ask these questions. To me I think that this has more to do with politics than anything. I think most people of faith would agree that politics and faith more often than not make for uncomfortable bed fellows.

Leaders of State usually feel obligated to make decisions that are at root immoral. To defend one’s borders one might declare war which ultimately results in the loss of many innocent lives. When riots are happening in the streets a leader is forced to act to restore peace. Usually this involves picking a side or crushing all offenders.

I don’t say any of that to excuse national leaders but it is the nature of the beast so to speak. The very fact that we gather ourselves into groups and draw borders in the sand, implies that we’re saying: “This is ours, you have no right to it, and as we are intentionally excluding ourselves from everyone else we believe our ways are better.” The idea of nations is really at root kind of wrong to begin with.

In the middle ages these ideals were exagerated. The aristocracy and royals in particular viewed themselves and were viewed as “different” than everyone else. The rules didn’t apply to them the way they did to everyone else. Heck they were the rules. I think it is possible that Issabella and Ferdinand did see themselves as devout but being monarchs honestly probably influenced them more.

Monarchs in the middle ages had one approach to perceived threats. Crush it. The most important thing to a monarch is internal stability, outward expansion and solidifying the dynasty. While it is true that the Church was powerful in those days it is sometimes misunderstood that this made it all-powerful. In truth the Church lived in fear of the monarchs surrounding it as much as those monarchs sought its favor to validate their rule and actions.

Look at Henry VIII he was a “devout Catholic” who even wrote treatises defending The Church from protestant reformers. The Pope granted him the title “Defender of the Fatith”, so fervant were his objections to the reformers. Yet when The Church intefered with his actions to solidify his royal line he declared himself head of the church in england which kicked off an avalanche of reformists traditions that really makes Luther in the grand scheme of things seem like a foot note.

To be clear I’m not excusing anything that happened in Spain, nor am I making light of what your family went through just to find a stable home. I’m just saying that we’re taking about a savage past which while having its moments is a period of time I think we can all agree (regardless of religion) we’re better off on this side of. Could The Church have tried to do more for the jews during this time? I say so yes. Still I’m not sure we can really fairly judge all factors of that from where we are today.

However, I do understand though, that you having come from a family that suffered from it could naturally give you a different perspective and I’m not denying that.

Yes, it was a matter of pickets and fences, but on a much larger scale! And in such matters there always are victims… it often befell on the Jewish people. Perfect scapegoats in the eyes of many… for centuries and centuries! Had i not been a Catholic, I guess I would not have minded to be a Jew, for the reasons saint Paul gave in his letter to the Romans in chapters 9, 10 and 11!

 

[Sepharad]

rtconstant: Thanks for your replies; they enabled me to see the situation in a more rational way (!) Maybe due to my past experience and background (and what I know of the Traditionalist movement from personal experience), they can be worrisome. For those of us who are historically knowledgeable non-Catholics, there are times when some of us can truly fear the idea of a resurgence of a militant Catholicism that aspires to temporal power again (as a number of Trads seem to.)

It makes people like me look at things such as the French Revolution, the Protestant Reformation and the downfall of the Papal States as rather comforting in some ways (though I realize to Catholics they were anything but.)

 

[Sword_Brethren]

That is what muslims believe. Thank God the USA was founded on Protestant principles.

Yes, thank God, Porn is legal in this country, abortion legal, divorce is common, and contraception is legal.

 

[Sepharad]

I think they mean separation of church and state, and liberty of conscience. It was to gain these two things (mostly the latter) that many of the Founding Fathers and others came to this country in the first place. I think that is why they are called “Protestant” principles…because most of the first Americans were Protestants who came here to escape the church domination of the state which had been so prevalent in Europe.

In fact, my state (Pennsylvania) was established by William Penn largely as a refuge for religious dissenters (such as 7th Day Baptists, Old Order Amish, Hutterites, Mennonites, etc), a fact I am very proud of.

I just love the United States so very much, this country is the first in history that has truly proven to be a genuinely safe haven for my own people as well! Jews of my generation and before will never forget this. It is for this reason, as well as others, that the United States flag never ceases to fly outside my home.

 

[Lapell]

Yes, thank God, Porn is legal in this country, abortion legal, divorce is common, and contraception is legal.

:tiphat: