How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

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Matthew 26: 26-29. The same no real presents here.
They all, except Matthew, state that the bread isa symbol of his body which is given up for our sins. Aand the wine is a symbol of his blood that will be shed for our sins and is a new covenant between God and man. Now were does it mean that it is his real body and blood. It clearly states what it means.
*I have to rush out in 15 minutes and thought I would answer your quotation from Matthews 26. For this purpose I decided to use a Protestant bible and see nothing about symbols. I quote from the New Living Tradition bible (same with the New Revised Standard Version)

"As they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread and asked God’s blessing on it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples saying, “Take it and eat it, for this is my body”. (27) And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said “Each of you drink from it (28)for this is my blood which seals the covenant…”

Both the Protestant bibles did not mention symbols. The Catholic bible (let me check…) naturally it does not speak of symbols. So…???

Cinette:)*
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]
Matt 26:[SIGN]29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it [/SIGN]anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Gen 49:18-12 A dying Jacob at a great distance saw Christ’s day, and it was his comfort and support on his death-bed. Jesus is the true Vine; wine is the appointed symbol of his blood, which is drink indeed, as shed for sinners, and applied in faith.
You lost me here shawn. What does Matt 29 have to do with you denying Christ as the living bread.

In 26-29 Jesus is saying that although his death will interrupt the table fellowship he has had with his disciples. Jesus CONFIDENTLY PREDICTS his VINDICATION by GOD and a new table fellowship with them at the banquet of the kingdom.🤷
 
You seem to ignore the main reason the Jews walked out, which was because they rejected Jesus as the Messiah from God the Father… That rejection was the main sin of the Jewish nation. They did not accept that Jesus came down from heaven. They insisted that Jesus was the son of Joseph, whose mother and father they knew. They did not accept Jesus’ claim of being the Son of God, which would make Jesus equal to God.

Look at Peter’s reply to Jesus’ question about whether the twelve would go away also.
“Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and we are sure that thou art that Christ (the Messiah), the Son of the living God.”
Notice that Peter’s confession is about believing that Jesus is the Christ and not about literally eating Jesus’ flesh etc.
The primary reason why the other unbelieving disciples left was that they could not accept Jesus as the Messiah as Peter and the other apostles did (excepting Judas).
But the reason they left him after the Bread of Life discourse in John 6 is because they could not accept his hard saying.
 
"rinne:
You lost me here shawn. What does Matt 29 have to do with you denying Christ as the living bread.
Rinne,

I’m not sure either. Here is my conversation with shawn so far on this point:
Matt 26
27Then he took the cup…
28This is my blood…
29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine…

So we go from wine to blood and back to wine. If were expected to accept the transubstantiated wine as blood as verse 28 indicates, but not take verse 29 literally too. This would seem inconsistent.
shawn,

Just out of curiosity what is the literal interpretation of verse 29 (the whole verse) ?

Thanks,
VC
In a nut shell

I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine. He is done with earthly rites, and this moment points them to a future reunion, Christ’s return, at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
That is the literal interpretation? Also, what do you make of the rest of that verse?

Thanks,
VC
I’m still not sure why “He is done with earthly rites” is the literal interpretation of this verse. Also, the final portion “until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.” hasn’t been addressed yet, as far as I know.

VC
 
*I have to rush out in 15 minutes and thought I would answer your quotation from Matthews 26. For this purpose I decided to use a Protestant bible and see nothing about symbols. I quote from the New Living Tradition bible (same with the New Revised Standard Version)

"As they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread and asked God’s blessing on it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples saying, “Take it and eat it, for this is my body”. (27) And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said “Each of you drink from it (28)for this is my blood which seals the covenant…”

Both the Protestant bibles did not mention symbols. The Catholic bible (let me check…) naturally it does not speak of symbols. So…???

Cinette:)*
That’s because it was so obviously meant metaphorically. No one there expected to eat flesh or drink blood. And they didn’t, either. There is not need for him to add,“And I don’t mean this literally.”

Transubstantiation, a later idea, is what I consider to be a rather convoluted attempt to reconcile the lack of literal evidence for consuming of body/blood with a more pagan and deeply personal and psycho-somo ritual of actual animal sacrifice and its consummation. By the time of John’s gospel, there is a real drive to separate believers from non-believers, and I think that John adds this more literal and “pagan” test as a separator to further identify the worthy from the unworthy. Unfortunately, IMO, this more extreme language later is latched upon and adds to the motivation to develop the idea of transubstantiation (literal body without the details of the body) which then becomes more difficult for some people to believe in as we move further and further from the mysteries of the past. It is one of the weaker “explanations” of Biblical language.
 
That’s because it was so obviously meant metaphorically. No one there expected to eat flesh or drink blood. And they didn’t, either. There is not need for him to add,“And I don’t mean this literally.”

Transubstantiation, a later idea, is what I consider to be a rather convoluted attempt to reconcile the lack of literal evidence for consuming of body/blood with a more pagan and deeply personal and psycho-somo ritual of actual animal sacrifice and its consummation. By the time of John’s gospel, there is a real drive to separate believers from non-believers, and I think that John adds this more literal and “pagan” test as a separator to further identify the worthy from the unworthy. Unfortunately, IMO, this more extreme language later is latched upon and adds to the motivation to develop the idea of transubstantiation (literal body without the details of the body) which then becomes more difficult for some people to believe in as we move further and further from the mysteries of the past. It is one of the weaker “explanations” of Biblical language.
*I do not understand transsubstantiation but I believe because Jesus said it was his flesh and blood and I trust Jesus. Of course the appearance is bread and wine but the substance has changed.

We humans (except for some scientists) can only conceive of 4 dimensions - height, width, length and time. In the Eternal world there is no time and other dimensions of which we cannot conceive.

Faith is believing without doubt whatever God has revealed - Faith is trust. You say your wife is Catholic. Well can she explain transsubstantion? Can she explain the Trinity? Can she explain miracles? Can she explain the divinity of Jesus? Does she believe?

Well my friend I cannot give you an explanation because my Faith is based on the love and trust I have in Jesus.

I have evidence of the existence of God in my heart and I see evidence in creation. I KNOW and I BELIEVE and I am so pleased. I look at my husband coming back from receiving the Eucharist and I am filled with wonder! He was atheist and a cinic and I just can’t believe how things have changed.

:)*
 
So not to be misrepresented, could a Catholic explain that which is in red! Catechism 1383 references this too. Why is a holy angel asked to take the sacrifice offered to the Lord’s alter in heaven? What is meant by this?

Anamnesis, Offering, and Intercessions:

Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son. We, your people and your ministers, recall his passion, his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into glory; and from the many gifts you have given us we offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice: the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation.

Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek.

Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm
 
Hi, Larkin31,

How silly of me!! 😃 This explains it all - “…it was soooooooooooooooo obviously meant metaphorically” - :rolleyes: Let’s try this again … and this time with feeling…😃
That’s because it was so obviously meant metaphorically. No one there expected to eat flesh or drink blood. And they didn’t, either. There is not need for him to add,“And I don’t mean this literally.”

Now, just run this line of reasoning through all of John 6 and let’s see how it plays out. This chapter of John can be divided into three parts - (1) feeding the 5,000, (2) calming the storm and, (3) Eucharistic Discourse … or… the ‘Misunderstood Metaphor’ as you may want to rename it…

Now,it could be that there really weren’t 5,000 people there (much less 5,000 men). This number is really a metaphor for how we hungar for Christ. There was just a few more then the 12 Apostles who had probably already eaten, And, Christ sees this handfull of hungry people and this kid shows up with some food … and they were careful to share and portion out the food that was presented … well, everyone got something to eat. Now, the 12 baskets of fragments was obviously a metaphor for the 12 Tribes of Israel - and they were a metaphor for the 12 Apostles. That wasn’t too hard, eh? :rolleyes:

Now the storm is going to a bit harder of a metaphor … but, in keeping with your approach - here goes: Christ had really gotten into the boat without the Apostles knowing it (maybe He hid under a sail or something) Well, this mild rain shower comes in on them … and some waves and just as the storm was going to pass - Christ appears in front of them (a metaphor for us not knowing the day or the hour when we will meet Christ…) and this scares the Apostles who think they have seen a ghost! Peter is obviously so upset, he falls overboard (no one can walk on water - another metaphor, I’m sure) and Christ lends a hand and pulls the old man back in the boat. Now, this is an obvious metaphor for how we all will surely sink without Christ’s Hand to bring us to safety! :rolleyes: How am I doing so far?

And, since you have handled the part about, “My Flesh is REAL food and My Blood is real drink” as either a misquote or a metaphor for something else… we have it all explained away! 😉

But, as I withdraw my tongue from my cheek… I am left wondering - never in any of the Gospels did people become offended by a metaphor used by Christ. While some may have been offended with Him calling Himself a: door, vine, sheepgate, sower of seeds, good shepherd, etc - the departure of these offended souls is just not recorded. So, here we have this issue - why would they be offended if called Himself a loaf of bread?

The answer is - no one thought he was calling himself a load of bread - they thought He was crazy! They understood what He had been saying. How do I know this? Simple. These 1st Century Jews (and their followers in the 16th Century…and, then their followers…) said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Notice, they did not wait around for the answer. This rejection type response is a little different from the 16th Century crew who simply rejected the Church founded by Christ on Peter, threw out the guidance given by the Holy Spirit for the past 1600 years, abridged the Bible that had been approved since the 5th Century and decided to follow men who claimed to be following Christ rather then Christ through the Church He founded and lead by the Holy Spirit. You see, there’s the rub. One either conforms one’s behavior to match one’s belief - or we just change our belief to conform to our behavior.

The statements Christ uttered in: John 6, in the Last Supper Narrative and as reported by Paul in a private revelation as recorded in 1st Corinthians either are the inspired Word of God to be taken literally or they are a big joke! From the founding of Christ’s Church on that First Pentecost Sunday - the Catholic Church has always taught that the Consecrated Host is the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. If you reject this, then you in total accord with those 1st Century Jews who said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” and walked away. :eek:

Ultimately, this is a matter of Faith. We are not required to understand how this happens. We are required to believe that Christ meant what He said. When we all get to the White Throne we will not be tested on our understanding.

Why are we required to believe? Christ said, “Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, you have no life in you.” So, do you want to be: alive or dead? There is no third alternative.:eek:

God bless

Transubstantiation, a later idea, is what I consider to be a rather convoluted attempt to reconcile the lack of literal evidence for consuming of body/blood with a more pagan and deeply personal and psycho-somo ritual of actual animal sacrifice and its consummation. By the time of John’s gospel, there is a real drive to separate believers from non-believers, and I think that John adds this more literal and “pagan” test as a separator to further identify the worthy from the unworthy. Unfortunately, IMO, this more extreme language later is latched upon and adds to the motivation to develop the idea of transubstantiation (literal body without the details of the body) which then becomes more difficult for some people to believe in as we move further and further from the mysteries of the past. It is one of the weaker “explanations” of Biblical language.
 
Specificly what? Fruit if the vine?
Hi shawn,

I mean this:

“I will not drink . . until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

What is your literal interpretation of that?

Thanks,
VC
 
I can’t believe you are really taking some selected writings from certain ECF and claiming that they spoke for the Catholic Church.
These select writings are of those considered ECF and must be considered when looking at the big picture. Lets not selectively dismiss certain works and claim others from the same ECFs.

If the “Real Presence” was the common understanding why didn’t transubstantiation become official Catholic doctrine earlier than 1215 AD, with Pope Innocent III, in the Fourth Lateran Council?
 
If the “Real Presence” was the common understanding why didn’t transubstantiation become official Catholic doctrine earlier than 1215 AD, with Pope Innocent III, in the Fourth Lateran Council?
For the same reason that the dogma of the “Trinity”, not fully articulated in Scripture, did not become a dogma until later.

God revealed the doctrine of the Trinity to the Church, not to the New Testament. It developed.

Just like our understanding of the 2 natures of Christ, the hypostatic union.

Now, if you had asked the first century Christians if they believe in the Trinity, in the Real Presence, in the hypostatic union, they would have said, “Amen!” although they would not have used those terms perhaps.
 
These select writings are of those considered ECF and must be considered when looking at the big picture. Lets not selectively dismiss certain works and claim others from the same ECFs.

If the “Real Presence” was the common understanding why didn’t transubstantiation become official Catholic doctrine earlier than 1215 AD, with Pope Innocent III, in the Fourth Lateran Council?
The real presence is not intrinsically tied to transubstantiation. Transubstantiation is an attempt to explain in what way Christ is present in the eucharist. Clearly, in order for them to even discuss the subject at Lateran, the belief in the real presence had to already have existed. But, as demonstrated by the Eastern Church, as well as Lutheranism, the doctrine of the real presence exists without philosophical methods of explaining it.
 
Please explain, then, what you mean by this. It sounds like you’re saying “symbols are not arbitrary, they’re symbolic.” That sounds like a “needless repetition of an idea”, like “widow woman”. A tautaology.

But please explain what “symbols are symbolic” means. :confused:
sym·bol·ic
–adjective
  1. serving as a symbol of something (often fol. by of ).
  2. of, pertaining to, or expressed by a symbol.
  3. characterized by or involving the use of symbols: a highly symbolic poem.
  4. (in semantics, esp. formerly) pertaining to a class of words that express only relations. Compare notional ( def. 7 ) .
  5. Computers . expressed in characters, usually nonnumeric, that require translation before they can be used ( opposed to absolute).
Symbol
–noun
  1. something used for or regarded as representing something else; a material object representing something, often something immaterial; emblem, token, or sign.
  2. a letter, figure, or other character or mark or a combination of letters or the like used to designate something: the algebraic symbol x; the chemical symbol Au.
  3. a word, phrase, image, or the like having a complex of associated meanings and perceived as having inherent value separable from that which is symbolized, as being part of that which is symbolized, and as performing its normal function of standing for or representing that which is symbolized: usually conceived as deriving its meaning chiefly from the structure in which it appears, and generally distinguished from a sign.
example: Symbol
Rev 17:7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns
Translation
9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
12“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom
 
sym·bol·ic
–adjective
  1. serving as a symbol of something (often fol. by of ).
  2. of, pertaining to, or expressed by a symbol.
  3. characterized by or involving the use of symbols: a highly symbolic poem.
  4. (in semantics, esp. formerly) pertaining to a class of words that express only relations. Compare notional ( def. 7 ) .
  5. Computers . expressed in characters, usually nonnumeric, that require translation before they can be used ( opposed to absolute).
Symbol
–noun
  1. something used for or regarded as representing something else; a material object representing something, often something immaterial; emblem, token, or sign.
  2. a letter, figure, or other character or mark or a combination of letters or the like used to designate something: the algebraic symbol x; the chemical symbol Au.
  3. a word, phrase, image, or the like having a complex of associated meanings and perceived as having inherent value separable from that which is symbolized, as being part of that which is symbolized, and as performing its normal function of standing for or representing that which is symbolized: usually conceived as deriving its meaning chiefly from the structure in which it appears, and generally distinguished from a sign.
example: Symbol
Rev 17:7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns
Translation
9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
12“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom
So saying “symbols are symbolic”, like you did here, is a tautology, yes?

That’s all I’m saying. Your post I referenced above was a “needless repetition of an idea, esp. in words other than those of the immediate context,** without imparting additional force or clearness” 🤷**
 
Hi,Shawn38,

Time out! 😃

There is no promise of infallability associated with the Early Church Fathers - some did well and some went off the deep end (e.g., Turtulian and Origin). They all started out good, but, still they just give us a historical reference for the development of the Catholic Church. None of the ECF pronounced definitive Church Doctrine.

This is really an important concept. The Pope and Bishops untied with Pope are guided in any pronouncement involving Faith and Morals. Ultimately, when you look back and see all of the official statements - those binding the faithful Catholics throughout the world - we believe that Christ - Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity - is contained in the Conscrated Host under the appearance of Bread and Wine. For 2000 this has been believed and taught.
These select writings are of those considered ECF and must be considered when looking at the big picture. Lets not selectively dismiss certain works and claim others from the same ECFs.

I am not dismissing them - those ECF who strayed fromt the Truth have made contributions - but, not all of them are consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Please note, the Catholic Church was not a collection of ECFs that had no leader (Pope). Christ did not give the power to bind and lose to the ECF (Matt 16). The writings of these men are still with us today - but, note, when they deviate from defined Catholic Doctrine they have left the path.

If the “Real Presence” was the common understanding why didn’t transubstantiation become official Catholic doctrine earlier than 1215 AD, with Pope Innocent III, in the Fourth Lateran Council?

The problem is how you set up your first phrase. The Real Presence was not the common UNDERSTANDING - rather, it was the common belief. In our curiosity and quest for knowledge we are trying to come closer to a understanding - but, this is THE MYSTERY OF FAITH and it will NEVER be understood. Don’t be shocked… we still do not UNDERSTAND how our weather patterns really work so that we can predict what will tomorrow be like. When we get to the White Throne, we will not be judged on our understanding - but, rather our belief and how we put it into practice.

I can not honestly answer for the timing of Church Councils. Most are brought about because of a question that needs to be definitively addressed… and this is usually brought on by a wide-spread heresy.

Note the very first gathering - under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - was the Council of Jerusalem that was held for the purpose of resolving a religious dispute: the need for circumcision and following of the Mosaic Law. This matter was resolved - NOT by following Scripture (all they had at that time was the OT and God clearly had establihsed circumcison) but by praying, discussing and then Peter made the definitive ruling which no one disputed. The matter was settled.

God bless
 
Hi, Shawn38,

Actually,it was the Holy Spirit that guided the early Catholic Church to adopt the Canon of the Bible before the 5th Century. So, between the 5th and 16th Centuries - there was no dispute as to who determined which books were Inspired by God.

It is interesting that, at least in viewing the KJV, all of the NT books - and the words - are the same (Luther tried to get rid of James, but only succeeded in getting 7 books removed from the OT - but, that is off-topic…:D)

It was the Catholic Church that determined what is in the Bible - so when it comes to the Bible, you have the Catholic Church to acknowledge for what you mostly hold in your hands.

ON ANOTHER TOPIC … My wife and I will be starting our vacation tomorrow… and chances are I will not be able to contribute any posts for a while. If I don’t get packed … she will just throw me in the suitcase and off we will go! 😃

God bless - and continue to pray for everyone on the list.

Tom
No. That’s where the Bible fits in along with the Holy Spirit!
 
*What is your definition of a disciple then?

In my understanding when the word disciple is used in the NT it refers to those who were follows of Jesus. I have never heard of any other definition.

Cruisin - I don’t swear or use fowl language - not my habit. If you think that squiggleys are to cover up for fowl language that is your “definition”.

Cinette:)*
a follower doesn’t neccassarily believe all that the master teaches… IE: Judas

You are making athe ssumption that because John uses the word disciples, he is claiming that those who left, believed Jesus was the Messiah. If you read through the 4 gospels you will find that Jesus had a lot of people following him but can you prove that those who followed Him and fell away accepted Him to be THE messiah. again IE Judas. Peter, John, and those who stayed with Him did not understand all that Jesus was teaching either, but they stayed with him, why? because Peter believed Him to be the Messiah.

In this instance i do not believe these people believed Him to be Messiah. they where following Him for what they can get physically. In this instance food. In a modern sense, Food stamps…or a handout.

Please take into concideration what John says about Judas and what he beleived, in the last part of ch.6 Juda continued to follow ( loose term but that is what he did) but did not accept Jesus as Messiah. ( the Holy one of God as Peter put it throught he words of John.)

How does John 6 fit with what John said was his purpose for this letter later. he said**" I write theses thing so that you may know that Jesus is the Messiah"? **to extrapulate comunion out of this passage becomes a stretch, and was not Johns intent when taking the above quote into concideration. The cup and wine where far off at this time and John doesn’t even include this during is rendition of the upper room.

Squiggley lines are concidered explatives( inapproprate language) in literary circles, used to try not to offend someone who might read them. especially public forums.
ex: newspapers…

If you don’t swear why use them( the squiggleys)? Not following your logic here.
I can change D***** to darn… but in the context of the type of sentence which D**** is usually being used, they are both being used for the same purpose.
Therefore both words become inappropriate.:)👍 think about it.
 
So not to be misrepresented, could a Catholic explain that which is in red! Catechism 1383 references this too. Why is a holy angel asked to take the sacrifice offered to the Lord’s alter in heaven? What is meant by this?

Anamnesis, Offering, and Intercessions:

Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son. We, your people and your ministers, recall his passion, his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into glory; and from the many gifts you have given us we offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice: the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation.

Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek.

Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm
What part of it do you not understand? ITs seems to be quite clear:shrug:
 
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