How many different Beliefs Systems are there within Post Reformation Western Christianity

[guanophore]

Historical Theology (the study of the various splits in the Church resulting from changing perceptions of theology) is a fascinating study. There are many online classes available in this area, as it is taught in most seminaries and some universities. [Here is an interesting page](http://www.apuritansmind.com/AdvancedHistoricalTheology/AdvancedHistoricalTheology-Ma(name removed by moderator)age.htm) which is open about it’s bias.

 

[JRKH]

Historical Theology (the study of the various splits in the Church resulting from changing perceptions of theology) is a fascinating study. There are many online classes available in this area, as it is taught in most seminaries and some universities. [Here is an interesting page](http://www.apuritansmind.com/AdvancedHistoricalTheology/AdvancedHistoricalTheology-Ma(name removed by moderator)age.htm) which is open about it’s bias.

Thanks for the link - I’ll look into that for sure.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for everyone who has posted so far.
It appears we now have 17 differening Doctrinal areas (More or less). They are:

Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
OSAS
The Role of Saints
Real Presence
Infant Baptism
Identity of Jesus as “God/Man”:
Saturday/Sunday Worship

Beliefs about church governance
Ecclesiology (Role of the Church)
How literally to interpret to scripture
Beliefs about free will and original sin
Beliefs about suffering (redemptive, punishment for sin, etc. )
Beliefs about healing and miracles (Word of faith movement)
Beliefs about afterlife (purgatory, permanence of hell)
Beliefs about prosperity and tithing
End time Beliefs

Just as an excersize If we assume that any given church community will agree or disagree with each item listed above (that is say yes or no to a given Doctrine) There appears to be approximately 152 different possible combinations. At least that’s what I get by my rough guestimate. If we have any “Math” types out there let me know if that is about right. In any event it appears that, at least theologically and doctrinally, we are a long way from that 33,000 number that gets tossed about.
Of course this doesn’t take into acount possible permutations of the various Doctrines (The “Yes but it really means this” sort of answers.)

Peace
James

 

[1edyson]

I think that when most people throw around the number 33,000 different denominations they may be speaking to the non-denominational, community church of XXXX, independent Churches. I can easily see that many, if not more NDN churches as a possibility. And in as much as each one of the NDN church is a separate denomination of its own adhering to their particular pastors beliefs and interpretations, I believe the 33k number to accurate.

 

[JRKH]

I think that when most people throw around the number 33,000 different denominations they may be speaking to the non-denominational, community church of XXXX, independent Churches. I can easily see that many, if not more NDN churches as a possibility. And in as much as each one of the NDN church is a separate denomination of its own adhering to their particular pastors beliefs and interpretations, I believe the 33k number to accurate.

Well considering that, in the study sited, the Catholic Church in Communion with Rome is counted as a seperate entity in each country studied, we can see that there is at least some error in the number.

However, let’s not confuse the point of this thread which is to develop some rough Idea of what the actual Doctrinal Differences among the various Christian communities in the West. In this it seems that there are far fewer choices though I’m sure there are a great many permutations on the Basics.

Of course as someone already said, any number higher than one is wounding to our Lord.

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

Well considering that, in the study sited, the Catholic Church in Communion with Rome is counted as a seperate entity in each country studied, we can see that there is at least some error in the number.

However, let’s not confuse the point of this thread which is to develop some rough Idea of what the actual Doctrinal Differences among the various Christian communities in the West. In this it seems that there are far fewer choices though I’m sure there are a great many permutations on the Basics.

Of course as someone already said, any number higher than one is wounding to our Lord.

Peace
James

James,
Many of us agree with you that any number higher than one wounds Christ, and the ministry of His Church. The question that is always on my mind (some here might say ad nauseum ) is what do we do now. How do we come together to bring His Church back to unity?

Jon

 

[JRKH]

James,
Many of us agree with you that any number higher than one wounds Christ, and the ministry of His Church. The question that is always on my mind (some here might say ad nauseum ) is what do we do now. How do we come together to bring His Church back to unity?

Jon

I guess we keep talking - In Christian Fellowship and understanding. I try to do my part as teh spirit prompts me by starting threads like this one where-in we can cut through some of the “rhetoric” and think about actual differences. Mine is but a smnall voice but it tries to speak to understanding one another. Thus, in a small way, I hope to gently draw others closer to The Church; to see her in a less “adversarial” sense.

Mostly we need to pray for those in the Church who are charged with engaging others in the work of reunification.

Peace
James

 

[CDNowak]

Just as an excersize If we assume that any given church community will agree or disagree with each item listed above (that is say yes or no to a given Doctrine) There appears to be approximately 152 different possible combinations. At least that’s what I get by my rough guestimate. If we have any “Math” types out there let me know if that is about right. In any event it appears that, at least theologically and doctrinally, we are a long way from that 33,000 number that gets tossed about.
Of course this doesn’t take into acount possible permutations of the various Doctrines (The “Yes but it really means this” sort of answers.)

Peace
James

Hmm, assuming binary (yes or no) total permutations would be: 2^17=131,072. The 33,000 number would only necessitate 15 binary options (2^15~32,768). Of course many of these aren’t binary (the rapture, only a division of End Times beliefs, alone has at least 4 options).

 

[JRKH]

Hmm, assuming binary (yes or no) total permutations would be: 2^17=131,072. The 33,000 number would only necessitate 15 binary options (2^15~32,768). Of course many of these aren’t binary (the rapture, only a division of End Times beliefs, alone has at least 4 options).

Thank you Novak for stopping by. I knew my math Skills were not up to the task. Thanks for straightening me out.

Your results are surprising because I was assuming we would come up with a significantly lower number than 30,000 by addressing the actual doctrinal beliefs rather than the “church names”/affiliations etc. Perhaps we still could, but obviously not by the mathamatical model I proposed.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

Hmm, assuming binary (yes or no) total permutations would be: 2^17=131,072. The 33,000 number would only necessitate 15 binary options (2^15~32,768). Of course many of these aren’t binary (the rapture, only a division of End Times beliefs, alone has at least 4 options).

Dern! You beat me to this! I had the math problem all worked out, (courtesy of my 16 yr old daughter) using the factorial equation 17C17 and the number she came up with was a grand total of 131, 071.

Now, that of course is if we even accept that there’s really only 17 different belief systems.

As Nowak pointed out, there’s even 4 different theologies on the Rapture alone.

I believe the number of denominations is much closer to 40,000. See this webpage (bottom of the page) for its daily count: today it’s 41,022

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks for everyone who has posted so far.
It appears we now have 17 differening Doctrinal areas (More or less). They are:

Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
OSAS
The Role of Saints
Real Presence
Infant Baptism
Identity of Jesus as “God/Man”:
Saturday/Sunday Worship

Beliefs about church governance
Ecclesiology (Role of the Church)
How literally to interpret to scripture
Beliefs about free will and original sin
Beliefs about suffering (redemptive, punishment for sin, etc. )
Beliefs about healing and miracles (Word of faith movement)
Beliefs about afterlife (purgatory, permanence of hell)
Beliefs about prosperity and tithing
End time Beliefs

Just as an excersize If we assume that any given church community will agree or disagree with each item listed above (that is say yes or no to a given Doctrine) There appears to be approximately 152 different possible combinations. At least that’s what I get by my rough guestimate. If we have any “Math” types out there let me know if that is about right. In any event it appears that, at least theologically and doctrinally, we are a long way from that 33,000 number that gets tossed about.
Of course this doesn’t take into acount possible permutations of the various Doctrines (The “Yes but it really means this” sort of answers.)

Peace
James

Here’s a list compiled by Prodigal Son1 on this post:

There are many different doctrines.

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. unitarianism
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves)

 

[JRKH]

Here’s a list compiled by Prodigal Son1 on this post:

There are many different doctrines.

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. unitarianism
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves)

OY - then that would be 2 to the 21st??? :hypno:

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

OY - then that would be 2 to the 21st??? :hypno:

Peace
James

No…I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s a factorial equation, written as 21!.

Example: 4! means 4 x 3 x 2 x 1

so 21! means 21 x 20 x 19 x 18 etc etc etc

So, to find combinations when order doesn’t matter, say how many combinations of 3 letters could be made from 10 letters, we use this formula nCr or 10C3.

However, we don’t have a certain # of ways, so we have to do this for all the numbers up to 21…

21C1
21C2
21C3
etc etc etc!!

Mind boggling!

Just what the Devil ordered, in my opinion!

 

[JRKH]

No…I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s a factorial equation, written as 21!.

Example: 4! means 4 x 3 x 2 x 1

so 21! means 21 x 20 x 19 x 18 etc etc etc

So, to find combinations when order doesn’t matter, say how many combinations of 3 letters could be made from 10 letters, we use this formula nCr or 10C3.

However, we don’t have a certain # of ways, so we have to do this for all the numbers up to 21…

21C1
21C2
21C3
etc etc etc!!

Mind boggling!

Just what the Devil ordered, in my opinion!

I knew there was a reason I liked theology better than math…

Peace
James

 

[Anna_Scott]

Here’s a list compiled by Prodigal Son1 on this post:

There are many different doctrines.

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. unitarianism
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves)

Numerous times I have seen the number of denominations bandied about with many different viewpoints on the validity of the number (usually 30,000 or more).
What bothers me personally about this number is that it doesn’t necessarily reflect the actual differences in Christian thought. So I want to reframe the question in order to discern better just how many doctrinal differences there are floating around out there.

So - - - -

Just what are the doctrinal differences among the various Christian sects in the Post Reformation Western Church(es)?
How many of these are truly contradictory and how many are more of a matter of understanding, emphasis or “semantics”?

Please make sure that the items posted are actual “Doctrinal beliefs” and not merely practices or “personal devotion” in nature.
Please - Lets keep this civil and let’s learn from each other.

I’ll begin with some of the more obvious differences and hope that I don’t post any errors.

• Sola Scriptura
• Sola Fide
• OSAS
• The Role of Saints
• Real Presence
• Infant Baptism

These are the ones I can think of off hand. Please add any others that I missed.
From this perhaps we can better understand how many different belief systems there Actually are in Wester Christianity.

Peace
James

James:

This is an interesting Thread.

I will add Solo Scriptura to the list. This is not a typo. It is “Solo.”

From what I have read, the debate over the meaning of Sola Scriptura became so heated and divisive, within the Protestant Sector, a new term was born: Solo Scriptura—which excludes all tradition, and interpretation is left strictly to the individual and the “Holy Spirit”–which is what many people thought was the definition of Sola Scriptura. (As a protestant, I do know how disturbing this sounds.)

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Did anyone mention:

Sola Gratia
Observance of Jewish Festivals as fulfilled by Christ?
Continued Revelation

 

[CDNowak]

No…I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s a factorial equation, written as 21!.

Example: 4! means 4 x 3 x 2 x 1

so 21! means 21 x 20 x 19 x 18 etc etc etc

So, to find combinations when order doesn’t matter, say how many combinations of 3 letters could be made from 10 letters, we use this formula nCr or 10C3.

However, we don’t have a certain # of ways, so we have to do this for all the numbers up to 21…

21C1
21C2
21C3
etc etc etc!!

Mind boggling!

Just what the Devil ordered, in my opinion!

To have a factorial you would need 21 options for the first, 20 for the second, etc… Usually it is used for ordered permutations (when it matters which comes first)

To determine the un-ordered possibilities it is a simple matter of multiplying number of options for each question together which if all questions are binary (either-or) gives 2^21.

BTW 21! gives more options than there are people (51 million trillion options). 2^21 gives short of 2.1 million.

What is problematic is finding how to reduce from the shear mathematical possibilities. certain teachings tend to go together, so including them both falsely inflates the number, and not every combination is held (ordination and no church leadership, for example).

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t think the straight mathematical calculation is going to give a good answer.

First of all, because many of these doctrines are related. So you will find that groups that adhere to one version of some are restricted in what others they can choose. I seem to recal that there is some mathematical name for that, but I don’t remember.

As well, within the individual systems there may be “room” for a certain amount of variation without losing the character of the system. Or they may be controversial, such as women as priests within Anglicanism, which is common in some places and not allowed at all in others.

Perhaps it would be useful to think about it historically? Like a family tree? So for example the Anglican Reformation in England produced Anglicanism, which has certain differences from Catholisism - it accepts justification by faith alone, it says that the information that is contained in the Bible is what is necessary for salvation, it accepts the veneration of saints but does not make them, etc.

Anglicanism produced Methodism which differs in…

With a family tree one could them look at grouping them together functionally.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t think the straight mathematical calculation is going to give a good answer.

First of all, because many of these doctrines are related. So you will find that groups that adhere to one version of some are restricted in what others they can choose. I seem to recal that there is some mathematical name for that, but I don’t remember.

As well, within the individual systems there may be “room” for a certain amount of variation without losing the character of the system. Or they may be controversial, such as women as priests within Anglicanism, which is common in some places and not allowed at all in others.

Perhaps it would be useful to think about it historically? Like a family tree? So for example the Anglican Reformation in England produced Anglicanism, which has certain differences from Catholisism - it accepts justification by faith alone, it says that the information that is contained in the Bible is what is necessary for salvation, it accepts the veneration of saints but does not make them, etc.

Anglicanism produced Methodism which differs in…

With a family tree one could them look at grouping them together functionally.

A good response Bluegoat.
My original intent WAS to try to get a handle on jsut what ARE the various Serious doctrinal differences. The ones where each side would definitely say the other is wrong and risks salvation because of their error.
Your point about how certain doctrines can lead into or preclude certain other doctrines is a point well taken.

The application of the simple mathmatical calculation was just my poor effort at testing the 33,000 number. Obviously it is not that simple.

I also think your idea of the “family tree” is an itneresting one as well, though I’m afrais that when we got into the 19th and 20th century ti would begin to look less like a tree and more like a “hairball”.

Another process that might be interesting would be to list all of the Doctrines on one side and the churches by denomination on the other. Then draw line from the denomination to each belief. Sort of like the old “connect the picture to the word” sheets we had in grade school. Of course I realize that this too would become overly complex but could aid in grouping.
Something approximating this idea could be created on a computer spreadsheet with each belief numbered and then each denomination with appropriate numbers next to them. Then they could be ordered by major groups, then subdivided by the permutations of the various doctrines. Oh My, I’m going to be dizzy again…:hypno::whacky:

In any event I think this has gotten some of us to look at the differences in a more productive way than just 33,000 different blah blah blah…

Peace
James

 

[CDNowak]

The historical method has been used (Who founded your Church?), though usually vaguely (and note that most of the early sects died out and their teachings recently have been brought back).

Of course that can get very complicated when you try looking at some of the protestant sects (for example the PCUSA history).

Wiki has some good resources: another graph of the major groups, and a listing of Christian denominations.

Again, however, there is little notion of how doctrine is shared by these groups as they have historically divided and combined in every imaginable combination and may bear nothing in common with their original founders (find me a Calvinist with Marian devotion).