How Many Here Would Attend The Traditional Latin Mass If It Were Available ?

[mickeycz]

So why doesn’t Holy Mother Church call an end to it? Why does the Holy Father continue to offer Mass in the OF?

You criticize others for citing their own opinions based on their own experiences. I would ask what your facts are to prove that the OF is so badly offered? Have you attended a large percentage of OF Masses in the U.S.? Have you visited any of the OF Masses in my city or even in my diocese? I would say that you have to have a very large sample size to be justified in drawing any conclusions.

As for the list of things that you criticize, the Catholic Church has established all of these things (Sign of Peace, etc.). Is She wrong? Has She foisted sin upon Her people?

Can of worms time, perhaps?
Why does the Mass have to be corrected, and repeatedly so in the United States?

Short answer: Because changes were made to the Mass in this country outside of approval from Rome.
And the changes were rejected by Rome, which ordered correction. So changes were made again, and then submitted to Rome for approval, and again rejected. The translations kept getting farther afield as well, with truly ridiculous de-gendering of Scripture and other things having to do with politics, of all things.

In other words, there was some mischief going on with the worship of the Mass, and the abuses got worse and worse. The priest at the church nearest my home has “no problem with the ordination of women” as I heard him say on a radio program once. I can walk to Mass there, but prefer to drive a few miles to another church.

Chaucer referenced the “unclean” shepherd with clean sheep in one of his tales, and that is where we sometimes are. Although

We pray for more clergy, and we have some small increase here I think. These are men who come in at a later age and know exactly what they are doing, and I thank God for this.

The Church is in a process as I see it, of reforming itself once again, as it has had to do several times. It is reforming, though, and not making itself into something “new”, nor should it.

 

[ProVobis]

We have plenty of people in the U.S., poor and otherwise, who cannot read their own language, let along a foreign language.

The high school dropout rate in our city is at 25%. A large percentage of these are African American young men, many who do not learn to read and therefore, cannot do high school work. I think that our city is on the high side, but there are plenty of cities that have a high dropout rate.

The past is the past. Perhaps in the past, the poor understood the Latin used in the Church because of certain circumstances; e.g., they grew up with it. But the past is gone. We are living in the present and we need to deal with the poor of today, not the poor of the 13th Century.

So what are you saying? It is not the job of the Church to deal with illiteracy? I seem to recall the days when nuns worked overtime for very little pay to make sure everyone, rich and poor, understands math, religion, English, and reading. There’s more than Latin that’s involved, sure, but I can’t just seem to think that just “going with the flow” and “give them what they want” is the solution.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Report the Bishop to The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. If a priest can pray the EF in a reverent and competent manner, there is no reason to deny the rights given to those who want the EF per the SP of H.H.

That Bishop is flirting with a schismatic attitude.

And that is the decision of the Bishop to make, and his alone.
All secular priests make a promise of obedience to their Bishop, and no religious priest can do anything in a diocese without the permission of the local Bishop.

Basically, the buck stops with the local Bishop.

To say anything else would be flirting with a schimatic attitude…

 

[roadsend]

…
Basically, the buck stops with the local Bishop…

Unless his actions are in open defiance of the Pope.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Unless his actions are in open defiance of the Pope.

And my guess would be that is for the Pope to decide,
not me!

 

[Cat]

So what are you saying? It is not the job of the Church to deal with illiteracy? I seem to recall the days when nuns worked overtime for very little pay to make sure everyone, rich and poor, understands math, religion, English, and reading. There’s more than Latin that’s involved, sure, but I can’t just seem to think that just “going with the flow” and “give them what they want” is the solution.

And I can’t think that giving them something that they don’t understand is the solution either.

Here’s what I think “The Solution” is.

Excellence in the Mass.

Whether it is English, Latin, or any other language, I think the way to attract lukewarm Catholics and denomination-weary Protestants and outright non-believers to the Mass is to present the very best, the most excellent, liturgy possible.

It should all be outstanding, sublime, as close to perfect as we humans can possibly manage. The rubrics should be followed exactly so that even the most knowledgeable liturgical expert should find no fault. This is not obsessive pickiness. Adherence to rubrics is obedience to Holy Mother Church, and the Lord says in His Word that to obey is better than sacrifice.

The physical setting of the Mass should be as beautiful as we can afford, whether we are in an ancient church building with traditional architecture, or in a modern clamshell, or in a school gymnasium pending the building of a new chruch.

The music in the Mass should be as beautiful as we are capable of presenting. Whether the Mass includes contemporary songs with guitars and drums, or traditional hymns with organ or piano, or ancient chants acapella, all the music should be in synch with the liturgy of the day, and it should be ethereal, sublime, hearty, and uplifting, and done with technical excellence by a well-trained, well-prepared choir or ensemble, cantors, and instrumentalists. Not all musicians are of professional quality, of course, but all musicians can be well-prepared. We who are faithful should pray that all the musicians, amateur or professional, serving in the Mass will be used by the Holy Spirit to help present a proper liturgy that glorifies God and edifies the Church.

The homilies in the Mass should be as riveting as the priest is capable of writing and declaiming. Not all priests are good homilists, but all priests are filled with the Holy Spirit and with fire. We who are faithful should pray that the Holy Spirit would speak through our priests, even if our priests are not naturally-gifted speakers.

The faithful Christians in a congregation in a Catholic parish should be friendly and welcoming and above all else, committed to The Lord Jesus and His Church. Their deportment and attitude during Mass should be above reproach–quiet, reverent, joyful, enthusiastic, focused, and humble. They should serve as winsome examples to those Catholics who are not committed or faithful and who are only in attendance at Mass out of dreary obligation to family or tradition.

Outside of Mass, the faithful Christians should be involved in well-planned and executed educational and social programs and activities in the parish, and all members of the parish should be encouraged to find some activity or program or study outside of Mass where they feel welcome and that they can commit to and hence be involved with the parish.

I think that the main reason people drift away from the Mass is because they don’t want to face Jesus with mortal sin on their conscience. Until these Christians repent and confess, they will probably not be eager to attend any Mass in any language, Latin, English, or any other language. Latin isn’t the answer, and neither is “going with the flow.” The answer is for the faithful to continue pleading with the Holy Spirit to please convict the recalcitrant Catholic of their sin.

But I also think that many Catholics who are not guilty of any mortal sin find themselves weary week after week of tepid, merely-average (grade C-) Masses.

I think that what is most needed in our Masses in the U.S., whether Latin, English, or any other language, is excellence, pursued and carried out in the power of the Holy Spirit and for the glory of God.

I realize that for many parishes, they have no choice but to accept the musicians and priests that they have, even though these may not be the most talented people. Well, IMO, these parishes need to stop sighing for what they don’t have, and enthusiastically support the musicians and priests that they DO have! That’s what I try to do in my parish. I know that there are better musicians in many other churches, especially Protestant churches, in our city. But we have who we have, and IMO, these are the people that God wants us to have. He has His own plans, and we shouldn’t constantly be criticizing the people that He has placed in the position of “church musician.” Same for priests. We’ve had good homilists, and we’ve had not-so-good homilists in our parish. Blessed be the Lord Who has given us priests!

And above all else, I think we need to stop complaining. In the Old Testament, it was the complaining and murmuring of the children of Israel that kept them OUT of the Promised Land for 40 years (Numbers 14). I understand that seeking excellence and striving for good changes (e.g., a traditional Latin Mass) is not the same as complaining. But I think we need to continually examine our consciences and be careful that our striving and working towards changes and reforms has not turned into bitterness, complaining, and lack of charity towards those who do not see things the way we do.

 

[roadsend]

And my guess would be that is for the Pope to decide,
not me!

In order to decide, he needs to be aware of what is going on, which is why it is necessary for faithful Catholics to insure that he or folks in the Curia are informed as he has requested.

 

[ProVobis]

I realize that for many parishes, they have no choice but to accept the musicians and priests that they have, even though these may not be the most talented people. Well, IMO, these parishes need to stop sighing for what they don’t have, and enthusiastically support the musicians and priests that they DO have! That’s what I try to do in my parish. I know that there are better musicians in many other churches, especially Protestant churches, in our city. But we have who we have, and IMO, these are the people that God wants us to have. He has His own plans, and we shouldn’t constantly be criticizing the people that He has placed in the position of “church musician.”

If this were only true. But I’ve attended Mass in parishes where organists were sent away, organs and other items of reverence sold to raise money, Latin teachers pursuaded to switch careers, classical music discouraged, and more secularism encouraged. Just about everywhere the English language gets butchered and there are little attempts to correct grammar or to improve communication. And many times it may not be just a matter of apathy either.

 

[Cat]

If this were only true. But I’ve attended Mass in parishes where organists were sent away, organs and other items of reverence sold to raise money, Latin teachers pursuaded to switch careers, classical music discouraged, and more secularism encouraged. Just about everywhere the English language gets butchered and there are little attempts to correct grammar or to improve communication. And many times it may not be just a matter of apathy either.

I’m sorry to hear that.

In our parish, and indeed, in our diocese, I don’t think the decline in the quality of music was because anyone sent them away. I mentioned our gay organist a few posts back. He was incredible, the best I’ve heard in 40 years in my city. (There are others who are also good, but this guy was the best.)

But I believe the diocese made the right decision to fire him because of his refusal to renounce sinful practices.

Many good classical musicians in our city played the solidarity card and got behind the organist. I am not exaggerating when I say that a few hundred people, including many classical musicians, left the parish and the Catholic Church over this incident. And to this day, our church is on the AGO blacklist, meaning that no organist in the Guild will play at our parish. That essentially eliminates any classically-trained organist.

So IMO, it is highly unlikely that our parish will enjoy much classical music in the near future. I think it’s a shame, a dirty shame, and I think that the AGO should be kicked in the rear for their politicizing of music. But I’m not in any position to do the kicking, and neither is the Pope.

I’m guessing that many other Catholic parishes across the U.S. have seen a departure of classically-trained musicians for the same reasons–solidarity with gay artists (musicians). I’ve heard statistics from music professionals to the effect that nearly half of all artists (musicians) are gay. This means, of course, that any gay man or woman who remains faithful to the Catholic Church faces a life of celibacy, and sadly, many gay men and women are not willing to make that choice.

I would like to think that the Catholic colleges will train classical musicians who will take the place of those who have departed, and at the same time, remain true to the Church. But I don’t really know if that’s happening.

So what’s the gist? The gist is, I don’t see classical music making a return to the Catholic Church in the near future, as long as it is considered “bigoted” in our nation to teach that the practice of homosexuality is a mortal sin.

 

[Ockham]

And that is the decision of the Bishop to make, and his alone.

Actually, it’s not. The Pope lifted that requirement.

 

[choy]

That’s not a charitable way to look at this discussion.

Although I agree sermon’s in Latin wouldn’t be prudent, to suggest poor people can’t understand the language is to insult most Catholics during most of the Church’s history.

i’m just stating my observation. one guy interpreted the video one way, the other guy interpreted it another way? whats a better conclusion? obviously one of the interpretations fits a certain agenda. should i lie for the sake of charity?

its hard to compare today with 100 years ago. first off, we don’t have a ton of agressive Protestants and Restorationists who are circling Catholics like vultures, ready to pounce on the next poorly Catechized or disenchanted one. they really didn’t have a choice.

in the Philippines during the 333 years of Spanish Colonization, the poor people weren’t even taught Spanish, much less Latin. in fact, as soon as the Spanish left, we were able to drop Spanish so quickly, not many people would realize they owned the country for 333 years. unlike Mexico and parts of South America where everyone speaks Spanish 'til today.

 

[Ockham]

We have plenty of people in the U.S., poor and otherwise, who cannot read their own language, let along a foreign language.

So the TLM should be repressed because today we have illiiterate poor people?

Didn’t Jesus tell us we’d always have the poor?

Are you seriously trying to base your argument on some kind of social justice platform?

 

[Ockham]

i’m just stating my observation. one guy interpreted the video one way, the other guy interpreted it another way? whats a better conclusion? obviously one of the interpretations fits a certain agenda. should i lie for the sake of charity?

What agenda do you think is going on?

And no, I would not ask you to lie about anything.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Report the Bishop to The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. If a priest can pray the EF in a reverent and competent manner, there is no reason to deny the rights given to those who want the EF per the SP of H.H.

That Bishop is flirting with a schismatic attitude.

yes. he sure is. he has a terrible attitude towards the Traditional Mass and i know just why.
the reason so many are against the Traditional Mass is because their lives are no so holy.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

And that is the decision of the Bishop to make, and his alone…

It most certainly is NOT! Any priest who has the ability can say the EF, either publicly or privately.

From Summorum Pontificum:

Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his ordinary.

 

[Cat]

So the TLM should be repressed because today we have illiiterate poor people?

Didn’t Jesus tell us we’d always have the poor?

Are you seriously trying to base your argument on some kind of social justice platform?

I’ve never, ever said that the Traditional Latin Mass should be repressed. On the contrary, I’ve stated several times in this thread and in many other threads that the TLM should be available to those who desire it. I also believe that the study of Latin must continue because of the need to be able to correctly interpret the many Church documents that are written in Latin.

I do believe that eventually, interest in the Latin Mass will disappear almost entirely in the U.S. except for a few pockets of adherents. That’s just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

When it comes to those who are dropouts, I’m merely pointing out that it seems unlikely that the TLM will appeal to those who aren’t literate in their own language, let alone a second language. It is my opinion that the TLM will not bring the crowds, especially the crowds of dropouts, thronging into the Catholic Church. I may be wrong; it may be that those who do not read their heart language with proficiency will actually find a Mass in a foreign language appealing for some reason. I tend be skeptical about that, though. Perhaps it’s a generalization, but in our city, it seems that most people who have dropped out of school are not interested in much of anything except various kinds of popular music, especially the kind with foul langauge, hanging out and doing nothing, becoming sexually involved with others that they are not married to and bringing children into the world who will be raised by a single parent, and quite often, gang involvement which leads to criminal activities and eventually either an early violent death or prison.

 

[Ockham]

I do believe that eventually, interest in the Latin Mass will disappear almost entirely in the U.S. except for a few pockets of adherents. That’s just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

Recent surveys indicate you are indeed wrong about your predictions. I provided links to them. Did you read them?

The TLM is more complex than the NO or most other Protestant services. Perhaps if parishes offered adult catechism classes everyone could quickly learn all they need to know about the liturgy. Once you understand what is going on at the altar literacy isn’t required for participation.

Did the Church see a sudden increase in conversions from poor illiterate people when the NO became the OF?

 

[ProVobis]

So what’s the gist? The gist is, I don’t see classical music making a return to the Catholic Church in the near future, as long as it is considered “bigoted” in our nation to teach that the practice of homosexuality is a mortal sin.

Perhaps you see a connection I don’t. I’ve only known straight people with straight families being kicked out of or discouraged from such ministries in the Church.

I don’t see that much of a decline in classical music in general. Look around on youtube. There seems to be a lot of classical music there. On C-SPAN, probably the only unbiased network in the world, they appear to have nothing but classical music when they’re doing the quorum call. Or when the other party you are calling puts you on hold… you get the idea. Is there something we can do as lay, musically untrained people to bring that musical quality back to the Church at both EFs and OFs?

 

[ProVobis]

I’ve never, ever said that the Traditional Latin Mass should be repressed. On the contrary, I’ve stated several times in this thread and in many other threads that the TLM should be available to those who desire it. I also believe that the study of Latin must continue because of the need to be able to correctly interpret the many Church documents that are written in Latin.

Unfortunately we don’t have the Latin teachers required to teach all those who wish to learn it. Every study I’ve read shows this to be the case. But that shouldn’t be a surprise, seeing that Latin was so demonized and ridiculed back in the 60’s and 70’s. Don’t forget, public schools commonly taught Latin back before then and many Latinists today aren’t even Catholic. Society in general needs to examine all tools available to further education. Even if Latin is not directly used, it could serve as a stepping stone to other areas of education. Studies have shown a significant correlation between high scores on SAT and the study of Latin. Latin just simply can’t be dismissed.

 

[Cat]

Unfortunately we don’t have the Latin teachers required to teach all those who wish to learn it. Every study I’ve read shows this to be the case. But that shouldn’t be a surprise, seeing that Latin was so demonized and ridiculed back in the 60’s and 70’s. Don’t forget, public schools commonly taught Latin back before then and many Latinists today aren’t even Catholic. Society in general needs to examine all tools available to further education. Even if Latin is not directly used, it could serve as a stepping stone to other areas of education. Studies have shown a significant correlation between high scores on SAT and the study of Latin. Latin just simply can’t be dismissed.

The school that my children attended (a private prep school) offered Latin from 6th grade through 12th grade. Many of the Latin scholars at this school scored Summa cum laude and Gold Medal on the National Latin Exam. I know of at least one of those scholars, a young man who happens to be a strong Catholic, is studying Latin at a Catholic college with the goal to become a Latin scholar and professor.

So there are still places in the U.S. where classical history and Latin is taught. Unfortunately, people have to be willing and able to pay for it through the nose.

My kids didn’t take Latin, BTW. French was required of all students from Age 3 through 12th grade, so my kids took French and enjoyed it very much.