How Many Here Would Attend The Traditional Latin Mass If It Were Available ?

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Perhaps you see a connection I don’t. I’ve only known straight people with straight families being kicked out of or discouraged from such ministries in the Church.

I don’t see that much of a decline in classical music in general. Look around on youtube. There seems to be a lot of classical music there. On C-SPAN, probably the only unbiased network in the world, they appear to have nothing but classical music when they’re doing the quorum call. Or when the other party you are calling puts you on hold… you get the idea. Is there something we can do as lay, musically untrained people to bring that musical quality back to the Church at both EFs and OFs?
It’s a good question. I, too, would like to see better music quality, at my parish, but I think I differ from you in that I’m willing to take contemporary along with classical. But we hear very little classical music at the parish.

I’m not sure what the answer is. I know that in my city, the really good classical musicians are generally not involved in Catholic churches because they don’t get paid, and they DO get paid at Protestant churches. That’s probably the answer–if the Church wants better music in the U.S., they have to accept that music doesn’t come for free anymore. The Catholic Church wouldn’t expect doctors to give their services free to parishioners, or plumbers, or hair stylists, or teachers. Why do they expect musicians to play and sing and conduct for free?

I feel that I can speak with some degree of expertise because I am very involved in the local music club (classical), which happens to be the oldest music club in the United States. (I’m very proud of that–we don’t have much to be proud of in our city, but that’s one thing we can brag about.) I know a lot of musicians, and they aren’t Catholic, or if they are Catholic, they don’t attend Masses anymore, but play/sing/conduct at other churches who pay them.

Also, as I said in the earlier post, there are a great many gay musicians (some say as many as 50% of professional musicians are gay), and those musicians who are not gay tend to stand behind their gay associates–there’s a lot of solidarity among musicians. There is an actual music professional union that is apparently very tight. If a church or organization teaches that gay people can’t “be” with each other, this doesn’t just offend the practicing gays, it offends their friends. I honestly think this is why you don’t see a lot of classical musicians in Catholic churches–they do not wish to give up living a gay life, and their friends support them in this. So Catholic Churches tend to be off limits, UNLESS a particular Catholic church has a reputation of musical excellence and provides an opportunity for the professional musician to network and play for the “right” people.

Also, I’ve heard over and over from various professional classical musicians that there are too many restrictions on the music that is allowed during Mass. I’m not saying that the Catholic Church should back down. I’m just saying that when the diocese ban many of the great classical musicians and pieces, or when certain traditional Catholic populations frown upon “Protestant” composers like Handel, Bach, etc.-- well, that’s not going to set well with musicians who usually believe in complete freedom of artistic expression and believe that any kind of censorship is a grave evil. (You have to understand how musicians think!)

So IMO, the best way for Catholic Churches to build up a quality music program is to recruit the few classical musicians who are willing to come through the doors and play/sing/conduct, and treat them like fine gold (and pay them fine gold!). A comprehensive music program should be developed in each diocese that would encourage the parishes to point children to professional teachers who will teach them music with the goal of playing/singing/conducting at Mass. It has to start with families and children–we need to start giving our children music lessons and giving them the opportunity to use their skills in actual Masses. Children’s Masses (often frowned upon by traditionalists, it seems) are a great place for young musicians to practice playing/cantoring. And there are certain Masses that are less formal (e.g., Saturday vigil Masses) where young musicians can be invited to help out, and the congregation hopefully will be tolerant of mistakes and fumbles while the young musician learns.

I could go on and on with this, because I was taught by a music teacher who trained me to play in church. To her, that was the finest use of my talents–not a concert stage, not a record contract. She wanted to see me playing in church. And my church was very patient with me while I was growing up–the music pastors worked with me to help me learn how to be a church musician.

I don’t think Catholic churches have any clue about that sort of thing nowadays, and I think they should get a clue. Otherwise, many parishes will continue to hear all those easy to play Gather hymns that so many of you despise, because that’s the kind of musicians that you are raising.

Bottom line–the parish that wants good music has to pay for it. It’s not going to be given to them.
 
My kids didn’t take Latin, BTW. French was required of all students from Age 3 through 12th grade, so my kids took French and enjoyed it very much.
Sounds like you are giving your children a fantastic education. Why French though? Up here in the Great White North we have it as an official language so it’s taught in all public schools. However, unless one seeks employment in the government or Quebec there isn’t much use for it. In the US I’d think Spanish would be a better language to have or for business purposes Mandarin, Japanese, German,heck maybe even Russian. Latin gives a great base for careers in law, medicine, theology, and literature.
 
Latin gives a great base for careers in law, medicine, theology, and literature.
not really. Latin is used mostly in terminologies. you can’t even form a sentence with the Latin used in Medicine and Law
 
not really. Latin is used mostly in terminologies. you can’t even form a sentence with the Latin used in Medicine and Law
Agita ante sumendum.

Durum hoc est, sed ita lex scripta est.
 
not really. Latin is used mostly in terminologies. you can’t even form a sentence with the Latin used in Medicine and Law
So “Nemo dat quod non habet” doesn’t make a sentence?
 
amazing what Google can give you
but really, how many of those are actually in use today?

and phrases are not sentences
 
I am a little confused.
You say:
It most certainly is NOT! Any priest who has the ability can say the EF, either publicly or privately.

Then qoute from Summorum Pontificum: which says

Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his ordinary.
My understanding of this is that if a priest wants to celebrate it privately he does not need “permission”
but, if it was to be done publicly he would need the permission of the Bishop, only insofar as that the Bishop feels the priest is “competent” in the rubrics and form of the 1962 Missal.
You wouldn’t want someone who may introduce abuses into the EF, would you?😉
 
I am a little confused.
You say:

My understanding of this is that if a priest wants to celebrate it privately he does not need “permission”
but, if it was to be done publicly he would need the permission of the Bishop, only insofar as that the Bishop feels the priest is “competent” in the rubrics and form of the 1962 Missal.
You wouldn’t want someone who may introduce abuses into the EF, would you?😉
Art. 4. Celebrations of Mass as mentioned above in art. 2 may – observing all the norms of law – also be attended by faithful who, of their own free will, ask to be admitted.

Art. 5. §1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonizes with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favoring the unity of the whole Church.

§4 Priests who use the Missal of Blessed John XXIII **must **be qualified to do so and not juridically impeded.

Can. 392 §1. Since he must protect the unity of the universal Church, a bishop is bound to promote the common discipline of the whole Church and therefore to urge the observance of all ecclesiastical laws.

§2. He is to exercise vigilance so that abuses do not creep into ecclesiastical discipline, especially regarding the ministry of the word, the celebration of the sacraments and sacramentals, the worship of God and the veneration of the saints, and the administration of goods.

Abuses of ANY SORT, whether in the OF or in the EF, are a different matter; if the Priest has the ability to say the EF of Mass competently and according to the rubrics, and there are people that ask for it to be available for attendance, the Bishop doesn’t have the authority to suppress it or stop it.
 
Sounds like you are giving your children a fantastic education. Why French though? Up here in the Great White North we have it as an official language so it’s taught in all public schools. However, unless one seeks employment in the government or Quebec there isn’t much use for it. In the US I’d think Spanish would be a better language to have or for business purposes Mandarin, Japanese, German,heck maybe even Russian. Latin gives a great base for careers in law, medicine, theology, and literature.
The school has been in existence for 80 years, and French is traditional in the school. French is the official language of business in much of the world. French is spoken in Europe, Asia, and much of Africa. Many international sporting events, including figure skating, are announced in French and English.

The school also offers Spanish and German, along with Latin. Many of us have asked for Greek.
 
French is the official language of business in much of the world. French is spoken in Europe, Asia, and much of Africa.
Interesting. That’s not the case in Canada where it is actually an official language.
 
amazing what Google can give you
but really, how many of those are actually in use today?

and phrases are not sentences
The three quotes above are not phrases. They are complete sentences.
 
not really. Latin is used mostly in terminologies. you can’t even form a sentence with the Latin used in Medicine and Law
Boy, have you got a hardened heart. Latin is the basis for international Law in our Western civilization. And over 50% of our current vernacular has Latin roots and most Western languages USE THE LATIN ALPHABET. If you don’t think that’s a big deal, fine, go learn some Biblical Greek or Hebrew.
 
my wife was a law student and my sister and brother-in-law are doctors
i will surely tell them
And if you’re going to try to persuade us to use only the vernacular, could you at least do us a favor and learn to capitalize in the vernacular? It’s not cute or funny to hear or read butchered English. :mad:
 
Art. 4. Celebrations of Mass as mentioned above in art. 2 may – observing all the norms of law – also be attended by faithful who, of their own free will, ask to be admitted.

Art. 5. §1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonizes with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favoring the unity of the whole Church.

§4 Priests who use the Missal of Blessed John XXIII **must **be qualified to do so and not juridically impeded.

Can. 392 §1. Since he must protect the unity of the universal Church, a bishop is bound to promote the common discipline of the whole Church and therefore to urge the observance of all ecclesiastical laws.

§2. He is to exercise vigilance so that abuses do not creep into ecclesiastical discipline, especially regarding the ministry of the word, the celebration of the sacraments and sacramentals, the worship of God and the veneration of the saints, and the administration of goods.

Abuses of ANY SORT, whether in the OF or in the EF, are a different matter; if the Priest has the ability to say the EF of Mass competently and according to the rubrics, and there are people that ask for it to be available for attendance, the Bishop doesn’t have the authority to suppress it or stop it.
And I am not denying that at all.

However, there are certain conditions, as you state.

I do not believe that a Bishop should (or would) allow a regularly scheduled EF Mass for a “handful” (less than 100 maybe), of people. Maybe as a once a year or for special occaisions but it seems silly to me to schedule a weekly EF if only a small number actually want it.

I live in a diocese of about 350,000 people. We have a weekly EF Mass that attracts about 300-400 per week, which amounts to about 1/10th of 1% of the Catholics in my Diocese, therefore, I do not see any reason to offer the EF anymore than it is already being done.
 
“As you may be aware, Pope Benedict XVI recently eased restrictions
on the use of the older Latin Tridentine Mass, as celebrated just
before the Second Vatican Council in the mid-1960’s. Do you
favor as an alternative to the newer Mass, bringing back the older
Latin Tridentine Mass for those who would prefer this option?”

Favor 25%
Oppose 12
No opinion 63

cara.georgetown.edu/pr082409.pdf
 
My kids didn’t take Latin, BTW. French was required of all students from Age 3 through 12th grade, so my kids took French and enjoyed it very much.
When I was doing graduate work in physics, the lingual requirements at that time for a doctorate were proficiency in two of the following languages: French, German, Russian. They have since dropped this requirement. I don’t know what the reasons were but I’ll bet it had something to do with not being able to recruit enough scientists to study for doctorates. Pity they needed to do that.
 
Every Sunday evening there is the traditional Latin Mass at the chapel of the local Catholic hospital here. In the beginning, after Pope Benedict made the use of it easier again, it was celebrated in the normal parish church but has been moved to the small chapel since then. I guess there weren’t a lot of people attending. 🤷 Anyway, at the end of the month I will become Catholic and can’t wait to go the TLM and have a look. I’m really curious! 🙂
 
“As you may be aware, Pope Benedict XVI recently eased restrictions
on the use of the older Latin Tridentine Mass, as celebrated just
before the Second Vatican Council in the mid-1960’s. Do you
favor as an alternative to the newer Mass, bringing back the older
Latin Tridentine Mass for those who would prefer this option?”

Favor 25%
Oppose 12
No opinion 63

cara.georgetown.edu/pr082409.pdf
All I think this survey shows is that the vast majority of Catholics are just plain indifferent. 😦
 
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