How many people are going to bail out of the Anglican Communion?

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I was trying an attempt at humor. My real point was not addressing Roman Catholics, but people who say they are Anglicans yet deny the importance of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
That would be me.

Anglicanism is not based on, founded on, or dependent on +Cantaur. It is founded on apostolic succession, Creedal Christianity, and a recognisable liturgy/formularies. Not whether one is in communion with Canterbury.

Else the Non-Jurors, from whom ECUSA first received the episcopacy, were not Anglicans.

Which, of course, they were.

GKC
 
I was trying an attempt at humor. My real point was not addressing Roman Catholics, but people who say they are Anglicans yet deny the importance of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Yeah, that’s why I thought your post was “just silly”.
 
As apparently the most liberal Episcopalian on the board, I think your thoughts about the viability of the AC and the ECUSA are spot on. More and more women (and married couples!) are being ordained as Episcopal Priests. From my vantage point, it looks like even those churches and dioceses that are leaving the ECUSA are in areas where they have to compete with more conservative denominations such as the Southern Baptists or RCs. I agree we will have to see how it turns out, but I predict the losses of these parishioners and churches will eventually be made good by new members drawn to the ECUSA by tolerance, compassion and understanding. My church is thriving, supporting four Sunday services, a mid-week healing service, and an active, aggressive outreach program to the homeless. The few members we have seen leave our Church in the past have gone to the Methodist Church to participate in their wonderful youth activities. Our parish has taken a leaf from their book and is beefing up our own youth groups.

I just don’t see vast numbers of Episcopalians jumping ship to the RC Church, except for the few who are influenced by their more conservative neighbors. I am sad to see them go, but I hope they find what they are seeking.

God Bless!
Welcome to the board, Emmy,and hope to hear a lot from you! The Voice of Reason–any voice of reason, for that matter-will be most welcome!
 
I’m sorry but this is just silly.

You think you can’t have legitimacy without the successor of St. Augustine of Canterbury, who was elevated by Pope Gregory the Great?

What about the successor of Pope Gregory the Great? Doesn’t he have some legitimacy?
If I followed someone with the name “Greg” into a position of power within the ecclesial body, I would have reservations about my own legitimacy.
 
But without the Archbishop of Canterbury, where does Anglicanism derive its legitimacy from? After all, the Archbishop of Canterbury can trace Apostolic Succession back to St. Augustine of Canterbury (who was elevated by Pope Gregory the Great), but the Archbishop can also trace a measure of authority since they sit on the Chair of St. Augustine. Does Roman Catholicism have that? 🙂
No we have the Chair of Saint Peter who gave Saint Augustine his Chair in Canterbury!!😃
 
So therefore the first Archbishop of Canterbury Saint Augustine and all later ones up to the Reformation were Roman Catholic!.🙂
 
No we have the Chair of Saint Peter who gave Saint Augustine his Chair in Canterbury!!😃
So therefore the first Archbishop of Canterbury Saint Augustine and all later ones up to the Reformation were Roman Catholic!.🙂
Obviously, I was being a bit humorous with that post and trying to respond to GKC and others who claim to be Anglican but are not in communion with +Cantuar. As I said earlier, Anglicans tend to have respect for Roman Catholicism (the elder brother in the faith) and, officially, the Anglican Communion recognizes Roman Catholic Holy Orders (including the Pope’s as Bishop of Rome).

But my question stands: how can one claim to be Anglican, yet refuse to be in communion with +Cantuar? I am not trying to be offensive or flippant, but it is a serious question.
 
But my question stands: how can one claim to be Anglican, yet refuse to be in communion with +Cantuar? I am not trying to be offensive or flippant, but it is a serious question.
Well I would point out that some Anglicans (along with some Orthodox, for that matter) call themselves “Catholic” even though they’re not in full communion with the Pope.
 
As I said earlier, Anglicans tend to have respect for Roman Catholicism (the elder brother in the faith) and, officially, the Anglican Communion recognizes Roman Catholic Holy Orders (including the Pope’s as Bishop of Rome).
It is kind of a funny situation. I mean, we Catholics say that Anglicans don’t have valid orders whereas Orthodox do. On the other hand, our orders are recognized by Anglicans but not by Orthodox.
 
Well I would point out that some Anglicans (along with some Orthodox, for that matter) call themselves “Catholic” even though they’re not in full communion with the Pope.
Yep.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
It is kind of a funny situation. I mean, we Catholics say that Anglicans don’t have valid orders whereas Orthodox do. On the other hand, our orders are recognized by Anglicans but not by Orthodox.
Yep. And the Orthodox, generally, treat our orders, and yours, the same. Not so much as valid/invalid, as empty, incapable of conveying the grace of the sacraments,outside the Church.

GKC
 
Obviously, I was being a bit humorous with that post and trying to respond to GKC and others who claim to be Anglican but are not in communion with +Cantuar. As I said earlier, Anglicans tend to have respect for Roman Catholicism (the elder brother in the faith) and, officially, the Anglican Communion recognizes Roman Catholic Holy Orders (including the Pope’s as Bishop of Rome).

But my question stands: how can one claim to be Anglican, yet refuse to be in communion with +Cantuar? I am not trying to be offensive or flippant, but it is a serious question.
And I told you, above, seriously.

Anglicanism is not a result of being in communion with +Cantaur.

At one time, Anglicanism was the Church of England, pure and simple. As the British Empire expanded, and colonial sees were established, under Canterbury as primate, the family grew. But after the independence of the colonial Churches as the current constituent Churches of the Communion, each Church had its own, independent Primate. The association, like the British Commonwealth, was a voluntary one.

Assuming the apostolic succession/valid orders, creedal Christianity and Anglican liturgy/formualries, what you have is an Anglican Church. Sometimes/often such will be in communion woth +Cantaur, and lately, sometimes not. TEC, by is abondomanent of a large portion of the creedal componment, and its use of invalid matter in the case of orders, is becoming a non Anglican Church, in communion with Canterbury, which is on the same path. It’s not with whom one is in communion that defines Anglicanism, but the content and expression of the faith.

I again recall the Non-Jurors to your mind. Where you had an Anglican group, including the previous Archbishop of Canterbury, not in communion withn the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Eventually, I expect the Anglican Communion to be an association of liberal, post Christian entities, likely still in communion with Canterbury. With Anglicanism being limited to the letterhead.

GKC
 
It is kind of a funny situation. I mean, we Catholics say that Anglicans don’t have valid orders whereas Orthodox do. On the other hand, our orders are recognized by Anglicans but not by Orthodox.
I’ll bet that Muslims find this hilarious.
 
And I told you, above, seriously.

Anglicanism is not a result of being in communion with +Cantaur.

At one time, Anglicanism was the Church of England, pure and simple. As the British Empire expanded, and colonial sees were established, under Canterbury as primate, the family grew. But after the independence of the colonial Churches as the current constituent Churches of the Communion, each Church had its own, independent Primate. The association, like the British Commonwealth, was a voluntary one.

Assuming the apostolic succession/valid orders, creedal Christianity and Anglican liturgy/formualries, what you have is an Anglican Church. Sometimes/often such will be in communion woth +Cantaur, and lately, sometimes not. TEC, by is abondomanent of a large portion of the creedal componment, and its use of invalid matter in the case of orders, is becoming a non Anglican Church, in communion with Canterbury, which is on the same path. It’s not with whom one is in communion that defines Anglicanism, but the content and expression of the faith.

I again recall the Non-Jurors to your mind. Where you had an Anglican group, including the previous Archbishop of Canterbury, not in communion withn the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Eventually, I expect the Anglican Communion to be an association of liberal, post Christian entities, likely still in communion with Canterbury. With Anglicanism being limited to the letterhead.

GKC
But the definition of the Anglican Communion is that is a group of provinces/churches that are in full communion with the Church of England. And the Primate of the Church of England is the Archbishop of Canterbury. I agree that TEC and other provinces are doing things that are challenging historical orthodoxy, but a key component of historical Anglicanism is that connection to the Church of England (which can, both through AS and Tradition, trace that connection to Pope Gregory the Great and St. Augustine of Canterbury).

I do have to ask though: what happened to that glorious province that was founded by Pope Gregory and St. Augustine of Canterbury? Maybe Anglicanism needs another St. Gregory and St. Augustine to reform, reinvigorate and restore it.

On the main subject of the necessity for communion with +Cantuar, remember although Apostolic Succession is traditionally important, there is also the issue of spiritual authority. Only +Cantuar sits on the Chair of St. Augustine created Pope Gregory I. Even if one disagrees with the theology or manner of +Cantuar, he still holds that ceremonial importance that, if denied, reduces Anglicanism to simply another denomination (as oppsed to a Rite with a connection to the Early Church).
Well I would point out that some Anglicans (along with some Orthodox, for that matter) call themselves “Catholic” even though they’re not in full communion with the Pope.
Remember, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox recognize a key difference between Catholic and Roman Catholic. Catholic, in its plain definition, means Universal. Since we all agree that there is one Universal Church, or One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, then all true (i.e. Saved) Christians are part of the Catholic Church.

It is unfortunate for discussions-sake that Roman Catholicism uses Catholic as part of its name for it causes a lot of confusion. After all, most people do not know that Catholic simply means Universal, but instead they automatically connect it to Roman Catholicism (the Latin Rite). In fact, I remember the first time I was at an Anglican service and the Nicene Creed was recited and we got to that part about ‘One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church’. I was a little confused (I was thinking ‘wait a sec! we’re not Roman Catholic, why do say we are?’) until I realized that Catholic simply means Universal. Obviously, all Christians are part of that Universal Church.

Look at it this way:

All Christians are Catholic, but not all Christians are Roman Catholic.
 
But the definition of the Anglican Communion is that is a group of provinces/churches that are in full communion with the Church of England. And the Primate of the Church of England is the Archbishop of Canterbury. I agree that TEC and other provinces are doing things that are challenging historical orthodoxy, but a key component of historical Anglicanism is that connection to the Church of England (which can, both through AS and Tradition, trace that connection to Pope Gregory the Great and St. Augustine of Canterbury).
Yes. That is the definition of “The Anglican Communion”. It is not the definition of “Anglican”.
I do have to ask though: what happened to that glorious province that was founded by Pope Gregory and St. Augustine of Canterbury? Maybe Anglicanism needs another St. Gregory and St. Augustine to reform, reinvigorate and restore it.{/quote]
Sounds like a good idea to me, keeping in mind that the Church in England predates both Gregory and Augustine. Meanwile, Anglcains who hold to the Crredal and historical tenets, not only Anglicanism, but mere Christianity, will be looking elsewhere.
On the main subject of the necessity for communion with +Cantuar, remember although Apostolic Succession is traditionally important, there is also the issue of spiritual authority. Only +Cantuar sits on the Chair of St. Augustine created Pope Gregory I. Even if one disagrees with the theology or manner of +Cantuar, he still holds that ceremonial importance that, if denied, reduces Anglicanism to simply another denomination (as oppsed to a Rite with a connection to the Early Church).
Apostolic succession is the key, not the See.
 
Yes. That is the definition of “The Anglican Communion”. It is not the definition of “Anglican”.
Okay. How would you define ‘Anglican’ then?
Apostolic succession is the key, not the See.
I would say ‘yes and no’. Isn’t that spiritual authority important as well?
 
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