How many Protestant apologetic books have you read?

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BarbaraG:
…Pages 439 to 446 contains a patristic exegesis of the Rock of Matthew 16:18. Peter was not necessarily thought of as the Rock, for many Fathers it was Christ, or our faith, etc…
Ms. G,
Have you read what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about “the rock”?
**881 **The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the “rock” of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. “The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head.” This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
**552 **Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” Christ, the “living Stone”, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.
**424 **Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.
Please let me know if you are surprised at all that the Church interprets “the Rock” being
  1. Peter
  2. Peter’s faith
  3. The confession of faith by Peter.
    This is in harmony with what you have said about the Early Church Fathers and their interpretation. Did you consider the polyvalence of interpretations before you left?
Peace be with you,
RyanL
 
OK we have some books, guess what, read them all. Webster/King, White, Svendsen, is that all you got? Figures! 😃

BarbG << Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of our Faith. Vol I is a Biblical defense of Sola Scripture, Vol. 2, (the BEST) An Historical Defense of the Reformation Principle of Sola Scriptura, and Vol 3, The writings of the Church Fathers Affirming the principle of Sola Scriptura. >>

OK, I’ll agree this was a very valiant effort by evangelicals to “prove” the sola scriptura doctrine is pervasive through all the Fathers. But that’s only when you define sola scriptura as something like “prima scriptura” (Scripture as primary) since even these volumes by Webster/King admit the Fathers used tradition as either an “interpretive grid” (how Scripture should be interpreted) or referred to customs and practices or even (minor) doctrines like prayers for the dead, infant baptism, etc.

For example, they deal with I think 2 or 3 passages at most from Athanasius on tradition. I give all the relevant and clear Athanasius passages here:

St. Athanasius on Scripture and Tradition

I do not see how one can get “sola scriptura” out of Athanasius after looking at the above.

I began a huge rebuttal to these volumes shortly after they came out, but it would take a lot of work responding to all their material on the Fathers.

The “biblical evidence” for sola scriptura is admittedly weak since in that first volume by David King he concentrates on basically two passages (2 Tim 3:15-17 and 2 Peter 1:19-21) and makes one oblique reference (but no commentary) to 1 Cor 4:6 (“do not go beyond what is written…”). THAT’S IT. Very weak.

They quote a lot of Yves Congar in the book, but they need to quote more from Congar. See my unfinished review.

They also cite Philip Schaff, JND Kelly, and Jaroslav Pelikan, but they neglect to give the citations from Schaff, Kelly, and Pelikan I present showing the Fathers did not accept “Scripture alone.” And the same ones in Not By Scripture Alone by Sungenis, etc.

BarbG << Pages 439 to 446 contains a patristic exegesis of the Rock of Matthew 16:18. Peter was not necessarily thought of as the Rock, for many Fathers it was Christ, or our faith, etc. >>

Neither does the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 881, 586, 552, 442, 424, 756. For example, Augustine appears to give four different views (Rock is Peter, Rock is Peter’s successors, Rock is faith or revelation about Christ, and Rock is Christ). St. John Chrysostom also said Rock is Peter, and Rock is faith of Peter. See John Chapman’s exhaustive study here. Also articles by Joe Gallegos and Steve Ray pretty much hammer Webster on the point.

BarbG << A couple of other books by Eric Svendsen are Evangelical Answers and Who is My Mother? on the role and status of Mary in the New testament and Catholicism. >>

My opinion? Interesting biblical material, but I wouldn’t give these books anything above 2 out of 5 stars, perhaps 1 1/2 stars.

Svendsen makes the indefensible claim in both these books that (and I quote) “Mary is mother of only the non-God part of Jesus.” Any way you slice that, it is Nestorianism (Christ is two persons), but I’ll acknowledge Svendsen accepts the early Councils, he just has a very confused Christology. I’m telling you none of this stuff is very convincing or challenging, although I’ll agree its probably the “best” that modern evangelical anti-Catholicism can do.

Phil P
 
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BarbaraG:
I’m the one who first posted this thread and didn’t think that anyone would want me to respond, but I will because I think some people expressed an interest in this.
I originally posted this because there is an in-built reluctance on the part of all of us NOT to question our beliefs. I just wanted people to listen to both sides and let God work on their hearts.
Just because some author attempts to rebut Catholic beliefs, doesn’t make them mean spirited. Most of you are Anti-Protestant in that you deny the various SOLAS of the Reformation, justification by faith alone, etc. You are honestly against these dogmas and in that sense are anti-Protestant. Do I think that you’re a horrible person, no. Too many people on each side confuse being against certain beliefs with a person who is ready to light the fires and burn the heretic.
James White is generally disliked on this forum and it is through his forum that I found out about this Catholic Answers one. I never met the man, and might not like to have him as a husband (he doesn’t like Italian food - I’m Polish, but cook Italian) but I agree with most of what he says theologically. I only ask that in the future people criticize his specific assertions on dogma, not on his personality. You may say that White or other Protestants make personal attacks so why can’t we. Well, I think that Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, whatever, should just debate dogma, no game playing, “just the facts.”
Anyway, I thought I’d provide a list of Protestant apolgetic books that I found interesting. They are no more mean-spirited than a Catholic book by Scott Hahn, etc.
The best for me was Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of our Faith. Vol I is a Biblical defense of Sola Scripture, Vol. 2, (the BEST) An Historical Defense of the Reformation Principle of Sola Scriptura, and Vol 3, The writings of the Church Fathers Affirming the principle of Sola Scriptura. Pages 439 to 446 contains a patristic exegesis of the Rock of Matthew 16:18. Peter was not necessarily thought of as the Rock, for many Fathers it was Christ, or our faith, etc.
A couple of other books by Eric Svendsen are Evangelical Answers and Who is My Mother? on the role and status of Mary in the New testament and Catholicism.
I don’t plan on being a regular poster on this or any Forum, Cath. or Prot., but I just wanted those who might be interested to read other works. I am conservative politically, but sometimes read articles written by liberals just to broaden my knowledge and to discern if the opposition is seeing something that I’m not.
Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria
Have you seriously read any of the Catholic Apologetics and make it sink in? It doesn’t seem so. It seems that you had an attraction to protestant services and rituals and were disatisfied with the Catholic, so you decided to look for anything that would try to defend that attraction. Give Catholic Apologetics another try. Do it with an open mind and heart and get rid of the pride and attraction to Protestantism, so you can get it better. Also, have you bothered going straight to the sources of these Protestant Apologists and reading the entire text instead of taking abbreviations as authoritative and infallible? Here’s an interesting scripture:

“1 1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who willjudge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: 2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. 3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, 2 will accumulate teachers 4 and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.” -2Tim.4:1-4 (NAB)

Source: usccb.org/nab/bible/2timothy/2timothy4.htm

**This clearly proves Apostolic Succession. St. Paul wrote this to Timothy. It also prophesies and condemns Protestantism and other schisms, heresies, and apostacies. **

**Why do you want to leave? Please, stay. No one bites here. **

:blessyou:
 
Here’s what I mean about tricky abbreviations:

A Protestant recently used this line to try to prove that the Church is going beyond scripture in declaring certain dogmas:

"6 I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, 2 so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another." 1 Cor. 4:6

Now Read all the text preceding and proceding that line:

"1 Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Now it is of course required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God. 6 1 I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, 2 so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another. 7 Who confers distinction upon you? What do you possess that you have not received? But if you have received it, why are you boasting as if you did not receive it? 8 You are already satisfied; you have already grown rich; you have become kings 3 without us! Indeed, I wish that you had become kings, so that we also might become kings with you…" 1 Cor. 4:1-8

Clearly here St. Paul is talking about accusing, criticizing, and judging people, he is not saying anything about how to teach faith. That is going “beyond what is written.” We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us.

Here’s another one:

Many times Protestants use this line to attack the intercession of the saints in Heaven:


“For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus…” -1 Tim. 2:5

However again read all the text preceding and proceding:
usccb.org/nab/bible/1timothy/1timothy2.htm

Now notice how St. Paul said “himself human, who gave himself as ransome for all.” He is mediator between God and the Human Race because he is the only God-Man, he is both man and God. Also, look what directly precedes that line of text, we can offer supplication, prayers, petitions, thanksgiving for everyone including people in high authority.

**Proceding the line he states: **“It is my wish, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands, without anger or argument.” Notice, he says in “every place” including heaven. Also, he states “holy hands.” Saints are holy and lift up holy hands.

**Also, in this same text he condemns women having authority within the Church, in which most protestant denominations do have women in high authority. **
 
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Eden:
By the way, the name Protestant comes from the fact that these first Reformation churches formed as a protest to Catholicism. In other words, Protestant means “against Catholic”. This is why the term anti-Protestant makes me chuckle. Protestants could not exist without being opposed to Catholicism. Yet the existence of the Catholic Church depends on nothing other than Christ. With the understanding of what Protestant means, an accurate synonym for anti-Protestant is “anti-Anti-Catholic” which makes the original term simply :whacky: . If being anti-Anti-Catholic" is a crime, let me be guilty!
I hadn’t thought of it that way before…but you’re exactly right.
The Catholic Church has existed right along from the beginning.
We don’t base our existence on being “anti” anything.
The whole point of protestantism is to “protest” or to be “anti-catholic” That is why they came into existence in the first place.

I guess that is why I have NEVER heard a priest give a homily on why protestants are wrong.

The few occasions I have heard a protestant preach either in person, on the radio, or just informal conversations - the topic inevitably circles back to how WRONG the Catholic Church is.
 
Thank you for responding Barbara,

I do have a question about a book you mentioned,

“Vol 3, The writings of the Church Fathers Affirming the principle of Sola Scriptura.”

As others would suggest and have, I too will stress that many times Early Church Fathers are quoted and used to promote ideas such as Sola Scriptura. We can quote Early Church Fathers to the contrary.

To be fair, I would , if you are truly seeking the truth and will follow Christ anywhere, read the Early Church Fathers for yourself. It is fairly easy to get a book not just quotes but entire writings and see if the particular denomination you are a part of consistantly agrees with historical Christianity.

If you indeed have the restored, (reformed) Christianity in all the fullness of truth then it should consistantly be supported by early Christianity. As many people are hesitant to believe a Catholic perspective in case it might be corrupt feel free to check out something like, Penguin’s Classics edition of Early Christian Writings.
us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,0_0140444750,00.html

God Bless and feel free to visit back and contribute,
Scylla
 
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Mijoy2:
From the perspective of a Catholic revert, following 35 years of not giving a darn.

When I took an inventory of my life and realized something went dratically astray, I began to investigate the philosophies of “holy molies” (as I used to call the church going people who would cause traffic on Sunday mornings) .

In doing this I was more exposed to the evangelicals, such as R.C.Sprowl, John McCarthur, Hank Hannegraff…others (who I still respect and admire).

These well intentioned men told me that everyone I knew was going to hell. The neighborhood Jewish woman who baked cookies for all the children in the neighborhood; all my friends who never gave God more then a passing thought; ALL Muslims; All Mormons: All JW…nearly everyone.

When I pictured this loving wonderful caring 80 year old Jewish woman swimming a lake of molten lava for eternity I knew somethign was wrong.

I was devistated beyond comprehension. Thank the merciful God I went a step further and reconsidered the love and understanding of the Catholic Church.

Some Traditional Catholics will tell you the same thing.:o

Now I have hope.

–Mike
 
To the Catholics who have read
“Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences
by Norman L. Geisler and Ralph E. MacKenzie”

I would like to ask,
  1. What were your opinions of this book?
  2. Would you recommend it to Catholics?
  3. Would you recommend it to Protestants?
  4. Would you recommend it to Orthodox Christians?
 
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Mijoy2:
From the perspective of a Catholic revert, following 35 years of not giving a darn.

When I took an inventory of my life and realized something went dratically astray, I began to investigate the philosophies of “holy molies” (as I used to call the church going people who would cause traffic on Sunday mornings) .

In doing this I was more exposed to the evangelicals, such as R.C.Sprowl, John McCarthur, Hank Hannegraff…others (who I still respect and admire).

These well intentioned men told me that everyone I knew was going to hell. The neighborhood Jewish woman who baked cookies for all the children in the neighborhood; all my friends who never gave God more then a passing thought; ALL Muslims; All Mormons: All JW…nearly everyone.

When I pictured this loving wonderful caring 80 year old Jewish woman swimming a lake of molten lava for eternity I knew somethign was wrong.

I was devistated beyond comprehension. Thank the merciful God I went a step further and reconsidered the love and understanding of the Catholic Church.

Now I have hope.

–Mike
Unfortunately, many Traditional Catholics will tell you the same thing…😦
 
in the segment of the James White debate bringyou.to/apolonio/truth.htm
  1. Who is James White debating?
  2. What was the first question? I hear the first part “Did the people in Jesus’ day practice sola scriptura…” but couldn’t make out the rest of it?
I heard the question that was asked after it “did the Apostles practice sola scriptura” where James White surprisingly says “no”.
 
Sola Scriptura never existed. It is impossible for it to have existed. The apostles did not yet have the entire Bible. All the Christian community had to work with were the word of mouth and letters from the Apostles. Not even in the Middle Ages did Sola Scriptura exist. Not even durring the Rennaisance Age did it exist. The printing press did not exist back then, people gave their whole trust to the Apostles and their successors. Then 1600 AD came, the printing press was invented, rulers were becomming more opposed to Rome for contradicting and condemning their evil actions and beliefs, so then Martin Luther came along with the backing of the kings, princes, and queens. Protestantism allowed people to subtract and add what they wanted to their beliefs. Rulers loved this so they can try to control the illiterate people. Protestantism consisted mostly of poor theologically illiterate people. But, most stayed loyal to Rome.
 
Maybe I should put a transcript up. You can hear it clearly if you have external speakers and crank up the volume. 👍

anon << 1) Who is James White debating? >>

Gerry Matatics vs. James White, this is “Great Debate 2”, the year 1997, the place New York I think. The audio I’m pretty sure is still available from StraitGate.com, it was played in 2 Parts in full on White’s Dividing Line online program by Richard Pierce of Alpha/Omega a couple of years ago.

The video and/or DVD is still available from Alpha/Omega Ministries, see www.aomin.org 😃 uh oh, don’t click the link. I played a nasty trick on you. 😛

Now that I got that out of the way, here is the transcript

anon << 2) What was the first question? I hear the first part “Did the people in Jesus’ day practice sola scriptura…” but couldn’t make out the rest of it? >>

Very close. The exact transcript would be

Matatics: Did the people in Jesus’ day practice sola scriptura? The hearers of our Lord, Yes or No, Mr. White.

White: I have said over, and over, and over again, that sola scriptura –

M: It’s a Yes or No.

W: – is a doctrine that speaks to the normative condition of the church, not to times of enscripturation.

M: So your answer is No?

W: That is exactly what my answer is.

M: Thank you.

W: It is no.

M: Did the apostles practice sola scriptura, Mr. White? Yes or No?

W: No.

M: Thank you.

anon << I heard the question that was asked after it “did the Apostles practice sola scriptura” where James White surprisingly says “no”. >>

To be fair to James, I think he did that since Gerry pushed him for a simple Yes or No. But James at times will argue Yes, sola scriptura is at least implied in 2 Tim 3:15-17 or 2 Peter 1:19-21 or Matthew 23 “have you not read what God spoke to you saying…” Also since the Catholic Church cannot produce “another infallible rule of faith” therefore sola scriptura is true by default. That’s the logic at least.

Strictly speaking, Sola Scriptura meaning “the entire 66 books of the Protestant Bible” as “the only infallible rule of faith” could not be practiced by Jesus or His apostles since that “rule of faith” was at that time coming into being. White is being honest there.

BUT, supposedly, sola scriptura “became true” immediately after the last apostle died. Doesn’t make sense to me, but that seems to be the position. The “normative condition of the church” begins immediately after the last apostle dies. The apostles are the only ones with the authority to reveal inspired truth orally (cf. 1 Thess 2:13; 1 Cor 2:4,7,13; etc), so when they die, all “oral tradition” dies with them, or is soon “forgotten.” Again, that appears to be the logic, perhaps I’m streching it a bit.

Of course many Catholic theologians can agree with this when they assert the “material sufficiency” of Scripture, but that’s another whole discussion. If you say Scripture as the only material deposit as interpreted by the Church, then we can agree.

For more elaboration of the Protestant positions, I recommend either James White’s short book Scripture Alone (2004) or the longer book by Keith Mathison The Shape of Sola Scriptura (2001), or some even longer argumentation along the same lines, check the Webster/King volumes. But I don’t recommend these to “beginners” but “experienced” apologists. 👍

Phil P
 
And to get the stataments of Schaff, Kelly, and Pelikan “on the table” – here is what these Protestant scholars say about the Fathers and sola scriptura

Philip Schaff, Presbyterian/Reformed –

“The church view respecting the sources of Christian theology and the rule of faith and practice remains as it was in the previous period, except that it is further developed in particulars. The divine Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, as opposed to human writings; AND the ORAL TRADITION or LIVING FAITH of the catholic church from the apostles down, as opposed to the varying opinions of heretical sects – TOGETHER FORM THE ONE INFALLIBLE SOURCE AND RULE OF FAITH. BOTH are vehicles of the same substance: the saving revelation of God in Christ; with this difference in form and office, that the church tradition determines the canon, furnishes the KEY TO THE TRUE INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures, and guards them against heretical abuse.” (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, volume 3, page 606)

JND Kelly, Anglican

“It should be unnecessary to accumulate further evidence. Throughout the whole period Scripture AND tradition ranked as complementary authorities, media different in form but coincident in content. To inquire which counted as superior or more ultimate is to pose the question in misleading and anachronistic terms. If Scripture was abundantly sufficient in principle, tradition was recognized as the SUREST CLUE TO ITS INTERPRETATION, for in TRADITION the Church retained, as a legacy from the apostles which was embedded in all the organs of her institutional life, an UNERRING GRASP of the real purport and MEANING of the revelation to which Scripture AND tradition alike bore witness.” (Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, page 47-48)

“Thus in the end the Christian must, like Timothy [cf. 1 Tim 6:20] ‘guard the deposit’, i.e. the revelation enshrined in its completeness in Holy Scripture and CORRECTLY interpreted in the Church’s UNERRING tradition.” (Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, page 51)

Jaroslav Pelikan, Lutheran (now Orthodox), The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine

“The catholic response to this claim [of the Gnostics], formulated more fully by Irenaeus than by any other Christian writer, was to appeal to ‘that tradition which is derived from the apostles.’ Unlike the Gnostic tradition, however, this apostolic tradition had been preserved publicly in the churches that stood in succession with the apostles…Together with the proper interpretation of the Old Testament and the proper canon of the New, this tradition of the church was a decisive criterion of apostolic continuity for the determination of doctrine in the church catholic. Clearly it is an anachronism to superimpose upon the discussions of the second and third centuries categories derived from the controversies over the relation of Scripture and tradition in the sixteenth century, for 'in the ante-Nicene Church…THERE WAS NO NOTION OF SOLA SCRIPTURA, but neither was there a doctrine of traditio sola [tradition alone].’…So palpable was this apostolic tradition that even if the apostles had not left behind the Scriptures to serve as normative evidence of their doctrine, the church would still be in a position to follow ‘the structure of the tradition which they handed on to those to whom they committed the church.’ This was, in fact, what the church was doing in those barbarian territories where believers did not have access to the written deposit, but still carefully guarded the ancient tradition of the apostles, summarized in the creed – or, at least, in a very creedlike statement of the content of apostolic tradition…The term ‘rule of faith’ or ‘rule of truth’ did not always refer to such creeds and confessions, and seems sometimes to have meant the ‘tradition,’ sometimes the Scriptures, sometimes the message of the gospel.” (Pelikan, The Christian Tradition, volume 1, page 115-117)

“…To identify orthodox doctrine, one had to identify its locus, which was the catholic church, neither Eastern nor Western, neither Greek nor Latin, but universal throughout the civilized world (oikoumene). This church was the repository of truth, the dispenser of grace, the guarantee of salvation, the matrix of acceptable worship. Only here did God accept sacrifices, only here was there confident intercession for those who were in error, only here were good works fruitful, only here did the powerful bond of love hold men together and ‘only from the catholic church does truth shine forth.’…[It was] the tendency of heretics to teach doctrines that were not contained either in Scripture or in tradition. But the church of the four Gospels and the four councils [Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon] was faithful to Scripture and to tradition and was universal both in its outreach and in its authority.” (Pelikan, The Christian Tradition, volume 1, page 334-335)

Webster/King no surprise left these statements out of their 1,100+ pages, I wonder why? :confused: Afraid of the truth? 😃

Phil P
 
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BarbaraG:
Code:
 The best for me was Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of our Faith.
Interesting, St. Paul the Apostle didn’t seem to think Scripture was the pillar and ground of our faith: “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15, King James Version). Of course, though, our faith is that of Christ and the Apostles and yours is that of Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli . . .
 
Anima << Interesting, St. Paul the Apostle didn’t seem to think Scripture was the pillar and ground of our faith >>

Ah ha, you’ve just been caught by the Webster/King trap. I knew immediately what Webster/King were referring to when they called Scripture “the pillar and ground of our faith” as the sub-title for their books. Theirs is a reference to a direct quote from St. Irenaeus who indeed refers to Scripture as the pillar and ground here:

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” (Against Heresies 3:1:1)

However, St. Irenaeus also clearly said:

“For how should it be if the Apostles themselves had NOT left us their writings? Would it not be necessary to follow the course of the TRADITION which they handed down to those whom they did commit the Churches?” (Against Heresies 3:4:1)

And

“Wherefore it is incumbent to OBEY the presbyters who are in the Church…those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of TRUTH…” (ibid 4:26:2)

And

“In this order, and by this SUCCESSION, the ecclesiastical tradition from the Apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is MOST abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed down in truth.” (ibid 3:3:3)

And Jaroslav Pelikan comments on the above:

“…So palpable was this apostolic tradition that even if the apostles had not left behind the Scriptures to serve as normative evidence of their doctrine, the church would still be in a position to follow ‘the structure of the tradition which they handed on to those to whom they committed the church.’ This was, in fact, what the church was doing in those barbarian territories where believers did not have access to the written deposit, but still carefully guarded the ancient tradition of the apostles, summarized in the creed – or, at least, in a very creedlike statement of the content of apostolic tradition…” (Pelikan, The Christian Tradition, volume 1, page 115-117)

So yeah, I agree, the Church is the pillar and foundation (or bulwark) of truth according to 1 Timothy 3:15, while Irenaeus called the Scriptures the pillar and ground of faith. And Vatican II for good measure says:

“It follows that all the preaching of the Church, as indeed the entire Christian religion, should be nourished and ruled by sacred Scripture. In the sacred books the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them. And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life.” (Dei Verbum 21)

Yep, Vatican Council II is teaching Sola Scriptura, just as firmly as St. Irenaeus and the rest of the Fathers did.

We need to be precise and don’t fall for the White, Svendsen, or Webster/King traps. I know their anti-Catholic evangelical stuff just a little too well… :rolleyes: 😃

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
Anima << Interesting, St. Paul the Apostle didn’t seem to think Scripture was the pillar and ground of our faith >>

Ah ha, you’ve just been caught by the Webster/King trap. I knew immediately what Webster/King were referring to when they called Scripture “the pillar and ground of our faith” as the sub-title for their books. Theirs is a reference to a direct quote from St. Irenaeus who indeed refers to Scripture as the pillar and ground here:

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” (Against Heresies 3:1:1)

However, St. Irenaeus also clearly said:

“For how should it be if the Apostles themselves had NOT left us their writings? Would it not be necessary to follow the course of the TRADITION which they handed down to those whom they did commit the Churches?” (Against Heresies 3:4:1)

And

“Wherefore it is incumbent to OBEY the presbyters who are in the Church…those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of TRUTH…” (ibid 4:26:2)

And

“In this order, and by this SUCCESSION, the ecclesiastical tradition from the Apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is MOST abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed down in truth.” (ibid 3:3:3)

And Jaroslav Pelikan comments on the above:

“…So palpable was this apostolic tradition that even if the apostles had not left behind the Scriptures to serve as normative evidence of their doctrine, the church would still be in a position to follow ‘the structure of the tradition which they handed on to those to whom they committed the church.’ This was, in fact, what the church was doing in those barbarian territories where believers did not have access to the written deposit, but still carefully guarded the ancient tradition of the apostles, summarized in the creed – or, at least, in a very creedlike statement of the content of apostolic tradition…” (Pelikan, The Christian Tradition, volume 1, page 115-117)

So yeah, I agree, the Church is the pillar and foundation (or bulwark) of truth according to 1 Timothy 3:15, while Irenaeus called the Scriptures the pillar and ground of faith. And Vatican II for good measure says:

“It follows that all the preaching of the Church, as indeed the entire Christian religion, should be nourished and ruled by sacred Scripture. In the sacred books the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them. And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life.” (Dei Verbum 21)

Yep, Vatican Council II is teaching Sola Scriptura, just as firmly as St. Irenaeus and the rest of the Fathers did.

We need to be precise and don’t fall for the White, Svendsen, or Webster/King traps. I know their anti-Catholic evangelical stuff just a little too well… :rolleyes: 😃

Phil P
You indeed do know their stuff well Phil. But, as I see it, if there is a debate with sola scriptura guys over the bible or a Church Father, the bible trumps the Father. So I don’t see it as the trap that they think that they have set.

MP
 
Well, I can’t list books for you, but would a B. A. in Bible and religious education from an Assemblies of God Bible College fit the bill?

I was deeply involved in Protestant apologetics long before it was called that, and I can tell you that most of what they say about Catholic teaching and the Church is either wrong or misleading or both.

Protestantism has rejected the heart of Christianity–intimate union with Christ in the Eucharist. Evangelicals have rejected it for mere feelings. Protestantism is so deeply divided on vital issues as to be laughable. The only thing all Protestants really have in common is that they aren’t Catholics.

As to reading the Bible, you do know that if the Catholic Church hadn’t decided the canon of the Bible and preserved it down through the centuries, through the Dark Age, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment period in which man began to reject God as a direct result of the Reformation, you wouldn’t have it to read. Think about that.
 
Well, I can’t list books for you, but would a B. A. in Bible and religious education from an Assemblies of God Bible College fit the bill?

I was deeply involved in Protestant apologetics long before it was called that, and I can tell you that most of what they say about Catholic teaching and the Church is either wrong or misleading or both.

Protestantism has rejected the heart of Christianity–intimate union with Christ in the Eucharist. Evangelicals have rejected it for mere feelings. Protestantism is so deeply divided on vital issues as to be laughable. The only thing all Protestants really have in common is that they aren’t Catholics.

As to reading the Bible, you do know that if the Catholic Church hadn’t decided the canon of the Bible and preserved it down through the centuries, through the Dark Age, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment period in which man began to reject God as a direct result of the Reformation, you wouldn’t have it to read. Think about that.
 
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BarbaraG:
I left the Catholic Church, well into my middle age, after being convinced that the Protestants have it right, although it was really the grace of God that led me out of the Catholic church.
It is not the grace of God that would lead one out of Christ’s Church.
'Satan is ‘the treacherous and cunning enchanter, who finds his way into us by way of the senses, the imagination, lust, utopian logic, or disorderly social contacts in the give and take of life, to introduce deviations…’" (CCC)
 
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