How many traditional Catholics here like both forms of the Mass?

[rpp]

Extempore;4726128:

Hopefully I don’t get attacked for this, but I think the quickest answer is that the theology that inspired the two forms are, in many ways, at odds.

A few quick examples are the “pro-multis” translation, the new emphasis of ecuminism, the changes in the catechisms, etc.

The “pro-multis” translation is a red herring argument. First of all, it is primarily an issue in English. Second, the official missal for the OF, which is in Latin, has always said “pro multis”.

We do include more prayers for people of other faiths in the Mass so I’ll grant you that one - not that I think it is necessarily a bad thing.

The changes in the Catechism are a parallel result of Vatican II but do not really have anything to do with the differences in form. It is the same faith expressed in both forms.

Indeed the “pro-multis” translation is a “red-herring”, and affect, predominantly, English. However, one must not ignore the fact that throughout the world, English is a dominant language, only one other language, Mandarin Chinese, is spoken by more people.

But it is also a “red-herring” because in the new translation, which will be implemented in 2010, the translation has been altered to the more accurate “for many” instead of “for all”. (Although the most accurate translation would be “for many men”.)

 

[Virgile]

I have no real “preference”, because EF and OF are both the same rit of the Catholic Mass.

If you speak about “preference” then it should be more like “what kind of OF do you like?” (actually, there are many…)

The OF according to the interpretation of the priest of my parish and in line with the “free Spirit of Vatican II”, or the OF according to the official documents of the Catholic Church?

When I will have the occasion to see an OF and an EF in the church where I go, I will let you know and be able to answer the question in appropriate terms.

Have a nice day.

V.

 

[I_Believe]

Since I’m a convert, I knew the NO long before I ever attended a TLM, so the NO is what I’m used to. However, I like the TLM more and more each time I attend it. Since I’m in the Latin Mass choir, I’m really starting to appreciate the Gregorian chants that we do. Also, the homilies are much better at the TLM, and they’re longer.

One thing I wish that they would do at the TLM is give the priest a mic throughout the Mass, so that I can hear what is being said in Latin. In the choir loft, it’s extremely difficult for me to make out what the priest is saying most of the time.

Josh, we are so blessed to have Fr Charles praying the TLM at St Martin of Tours. Fr Paul is a fine young priest as well of course, but Fr Charles is a treasure.

He shared his thoughts in a letter to the Oxford Review a few years ago… it’s a reponse to a letter/article by another priest.

I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.

The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?

Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.

My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.
Louisville, Kentucky

He spent some 20 years in Bermuda, or the Bahamas, can’t recall exactly, but the Bishop there sent him home because he was “too traditional”. Fr Charles asked his Superior what he wanted him to do and his Superior said " whatever you want".

And so he’s doing what he was called to do, and again, we are so blessed to have him here.

May Our Father in Heaven grant Fr Charles many more years,

 

[weepixie71]

i think that the two masses are so different that they are not comparable except they both have a valid priest and consecration. one mass is of pure instinct and witnessing and the other is of participation.
so it stands to reason, that some are going to like one and others are going to like the other mass. i can especially see protestant converts who want to stick to what they know.

since i was raised in the vat II era, i never heard of a tridentine mass. though my mother would recollect a time when mass was done in latin and she always looked wistful when she mentioned it.
when i learned that the novus ordo was the same as many of the protestants it bothered me. a lot. a whole lot, because i thought it odd that we would even want to worship in the same way as people who protested against the truth. i was afraid that worshiping like a protestant would in God’s eyes be offensive because i feel that being a Catholic holds us to a higher standard.
it is one thing to kick back and enjoy prostestant music and what not in our own time but the mass is set aside specifically for Christ.
the tridentine is harder. you have to keep your children quieter, you have to dress a certain way, it can be harder to follow depending on the priest, mass times and places in many areas are a struggle to get to, etc. but these are sacrifices that we get to offer up to Christ and hopefully get graces for trying to please him. its a selfless mass with only Christ in mind.
i hear and read too many people who attend the novus ordo saying they like the participation, it makes ME feel good to participate in the mass, they like the music, etc. i do not hear or read them saying because this is what i feel makes Christ happy. now dont get me wrong, if we didnt want to make
Christ happy then none of us would be looking for ways to do so on this site. all im saying is can you really look at the novus ordo as a whole (not at the novus ordo you had to hunt down so you can feel reverent) and say this is good?
i know as the tridentine stands today, i can. i can go to any tridentine mass and it will be done just as reverent as the one in the next town or state or country next to it. it doesnt matter if the parish has money or not, or if the priest has some strange ideas, in knowing this, i know it is pleasing to God.
also i want to state this: when i met a man from argentina, he spoke of how poor it was. i said, “why dont you sell all the gold that is in your churches to help you get on you and your friends get on your feet.”
he said, “if we stripped our church and things didnt work out what would we have for Christ?” if your church is built before vatican II does it looked stripped?
i attend the novus ordo if i absolutely can not make it to a tridentine mass. the mass is valid and it is more important to receive Christ in the Eucharist. than to be prideful and not attend a mass at all. if you feel what they are doing at a novus ordo is irreverent then you have a catholic obligation to say so to your priest and bishop and higher if need be.

 

[SourGrape]

When my husband and I lived in Chicago, we attended the EF at Saint John Cantius (which, IMO, offered the best Tridentine Mass I’ve ever been too, although I’ve only been to 3 different parishes offering that Mass). Since we’ve moved to Monterey, CA, though, we attend a OF Mass at the Carmel Mission because they offer several reverant Sunday Masses (their daily Masses are wonderful too), although we occassionaly make the long drive to San Juan Bautista for the EF of Mass, since that is our prefered type of Mass. Neither of us can stand the guitar , rock-n-roll Masses, or even worse shudder parishes purposely built without kneelers as no one is expected to kneel during the Consecration!

 

[PittSteve]

I would consider myself among that younger generation of Catholics that people are talking about lately, turning to orthodox Catholicism and traditional beliefs, embracing the Church’s history, love our Papa Ben and miss JPII. We’re longing for Bible Studies with our orthodox Catholic peers, and may be a little disappointed with the way we were “catechized” as we are now discovering the beauty of the Catholic faith that we were not given in CCD. The more I learn and discover about Catholicism, the more I love it.

Having said that…

I’ve only been to one Tridentine Mass in my entire life, this past fall in Aliquippa, PA at St. Titus. I LOVED it. It was so different, that I really understood why so many older folks I knew felt so angry when the church “switched” from Latin to English in the 1960’s. But, having said that, I don’t think I would “enjoy” the TLM every Sunday as I do the NO. I’m a reader, and I love the responses. The quiet of the Mass was hard to follow, yet amazingly beautiful at the same time. But, I only went once. I’d love to go again.

I also really enjoy the NO Mass. At my parish, it’s reverent and I don’t know of any abuses (again, the EMHC thing would be the biggest, but we have a pretty big parish and only 2 priests).

And, I’ve been to my share of Charismatic Masses…and that’s where I feel at home. At the risk of making traditionalists angry, I love the Charismatic feel; with the newer music, clapping, guitars and drums, lest we forget hands raised in prayer. I wouldn’t prefer that type of worship every Sunday though, either.

I think the BEAUTIFUL thing about being Catholic is that there are so many traditions, and types of Masses. We can go to one parish for a youthful, Charismatic Mass one week, and to another parish for the TLM the next Sunday. Or, in our town, we can go to a Ukranian Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, or Roman Catholic Church. There’s also 2 or 3 different Orthodox Churches. The variety is awesome, in my opinion.

I think a perfect Catholic parish would offer the TLM, NO and Charismatic Masses every weekend. Variety is the spice of life, and the old hymn says…“Sing a new song unto the Lord…”

 

[porthos11]

I love both forms, especially since I served for several years at OF Masses, and I pushed so hard, with Father’s support to bring in the Latin propers and ordinaries, even if just starting with the Graduale Simplex. We were told that Father liked our choir because it was “Catholic.” I would still attend if I could find one like it in Calgary, but I’ve looked in several places, and all I’ve seen are altar girls and standing during the consecration in most everywhere.

But when I attended the EF, I knew that this was the Mass I had to attend, alternating with the Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy at the beautiful Assumption parish. I love the EF for its own merits, and not out of any disappointment over the sloppy treatment of the EF here.

Although I agree with much of the OF’s reforms, including the simplification of the structure, the restructuring of the Divine Office, the correction of some of the saints’ biographies in the Calendar, and the expansion of Biblical readings in both the Mass and Office, I do not agree with the innovations that have made their way into common practice, such as versus populum, EMHC’s and altar girls. Moreover, the EF has nourished countless saints and martyrs for centuries, so that has to mean something as well.

 

[jmcrae]

I love both forms, especially since I served for several years at OF Masses, and I pushed so hard, with Father’s support to bring in the Latin propers and ordinaries, even if just starting with the Graduale Simplex. We were told that Father liked our choir because it was “Catholic.” I would still attend if I could find one like it in Calgary, but I’ve looked in several places, and all I’ve seen are altar girls and standing during the consecration in most everywhere.

We don’t stand during the consecration at Sacred Heart.

 

[porthos11]

We don’t stand during the consecration at Sacred Heart.

Oh, that’s great to know. Haven’t been there yet.

But I’m now addicted to the EF at St. Anthony, so I think I’ll stick with that and the Ukrainian DL. I’ll try to check out Sacred Heart when I get a chance.

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, that’s great to know. Haven’t been there yet.

But I’m now addicted to the EF at St. Anthony, so I think I’ll stick with that and the Ukrainian DL. I’ll try to check out Sacred Heart when I get a chance.

I like St. Anthony’s, too. I often go to Father B. for Confession - I like him very much.

 

[brigid12]

I do, especially when the OF is in Latin (with scripture in the vernacular) and/or the EF is one with music (with scripture also in vernacular).

 

[Michael_Neal]

I celebrate and like them both

 

[psr13]

I don’t like the OF. At least the ones I’ve been to seem way to similar to the Protestant churches I came from.

 

[bubba451]

I have become devoted to the TLM. That said, I do not discourage or disparage the OF. There is room for both in my opinion. As a former attendee of the OF on an exclusive basis, At one time I viewed the EF as the home of the overly religious/pious–in short, the nutters. There were a few things I didn’t like that happened at my local OF mass, but I still attended.

I was bothered by having 2 deacons and 2 priests, 6 acolytes, and 6 to 8 Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion for 200 people. I was bothered by the cell phones and the talking and the bulletin reading instead of worship or at least silence. I was bothered by the very late arrivals and leaving early. It disturbed me while I was trying to focus on my own worship. Admittedly, it’s hard to focus when the person direclty in front of you is literally having a cell phone conversation durring the homily.

A friend asked me to attend the EF and see for myself what it was like. I really enjoyed it (suprisied myself) and I began to read and study. I continued to attend both and began to feel drawn to the EF. I also observed many of the issues I mention above rarely happened at the EF. In short, many of the things that nagged at me no longer were issues. We now attend the EF almost exclusively as I have the option where I live. I am sure that excellent OF masses exist and if you are happy in your parish home, great. Please don’t begrudge me the TLM. The Church has said EITHER, not this or that. The EF meets the needs of my soul best based on my experience and now the Church has said that is, in fact, the teaching of the Church.

 

[Candace_Alexis]

I am a “nutter”. I am getting nuttier. I was glancing at the Orthodox (Greek) bible and was arrested by a certain passage in Romans. Remember Paul wrote in Greek. I looked in my Catholic bible. It was significantly different. I then looked at my old bible in Greek. It has the literal translation underneath. The same as the Orthodox translation (i guess so). Now the Greek translation is pretty clear and does support the position of the Catholic Church. The “Church” translation I have is rather vague and somewhat misleading.
My point is that words matter. The ceremony around the Eucharist matters. Adopting a liturgy based on a heretical one so people feel better is suspect. Does the Church want to become Episcopalian to attract more members? Where does that lead? Whose interests are we serving here?
Should the Church remain faithful to its traditions and let cosy lovers go elsewhere? Should it try to satisfy both? In any event this spiral back to tradition has excited the younger priests in my area. They are inspired. I see inspired young men in the pews. What are you seeing?

 

[bubba451]

I see that the whole thing is overheated and like a cake, needs to cool a bit. Flipping a switch to make either form “go away” will not happen in my opinion. It did not work last time and should not be applied as the solution this time to “undo”. The emotions of young men are always stirred in times of change. It is hoped that we will look to the wisdom of older men like His Holiness, who are showing prudence, patience, and charity.

 

[MONKROCK]

By going (nearly exclusively) to the Traditional Latin Mass for 4 years - while growing in better understanding of the Catholic Faith through “Traditional” sources - I grew to appreciate and love the Novus Ordo (and the Council) more than ever. Of course, HOW the Mass is offered is always key in BOTH forms. There are good elements in both forms that the other does not have. I agree with the Holy Father that they are mutually enriching.

Though things are not ideal (as they are not anywhere), I am very blessed (and spoiled) to be living in St. Louis - the “Rome of the West” - where I have St. Francis de Sales Oratory - the “Cathedral of the South” (St. Louis) - and the Cathedral Basilica of Saint Louis. For those who have been to one or both of these, you know the great privilege I have.

 

[Clevelander]

All the Masses that I appreciate have one thing in common, i.e., the absence of any invitation or temptation to focus on me, and the dedicated focus on the saving action of God. I guess that’s two things. This characterizes almost all of my EFs, and hardly any of my OFs, but they do happen, and like others here, I sure am grateful for them and I never forget where they occurred. I’m a big proponent of something that St. John Cantius in Chicago does (among other things) every Sunday: Ordinary Form, ad orientem, in Latin (with chant, it goes without saying). I refer to it informally as the “Mass of Father Fessio,” after that little red booklet published a couple of years ago by Ignatius Press called “The Mass of Vatican II.” If you want to do the world a favor, buy an armload from Ignatius Press (they give quantity discounts), and indiscriminately leave them lying around your OF parish. Heck, put them on people’s windshields in the parking lot.

 

[The_Smiter]

At my parish, I feel like a minority, because most people who go to the TLM seem to dislike the NO, even though the NO in our parish is celebrated very reverently. Most Sundays, I try to attend both our NO and our TLM. How many others here feel the same way?

I loke both because there is something to be seen in both that I think we all need. The problem most people usually have (at least that I have heard and read) is that the OF is not reverent. Admittedly, there is far too much latitude given as to what is considered reverent and I think that the term should be battened down a bit by TPTB. However, I enjoy both forms and as I would like more people who have not been exposed to the EF become educated and attend one now and then, I would also encourage those who prefer the EF to attend one and see what it might have to offer them.

As I have gotten older (now a grandfather) I find myself preferring the EF because I see far too much of our tradition slipping away (this has always surprised me because I grew up after Vatican II and did not attend my first TLM until high school). However, I do find that a reverently celebrated NO Mass with a great homilist can be uplifting as well.

I think that the fullness of our Catholic tradition at this time in our history offers us both, and I believe that it is up to us to seek out good celebrations of both to experience all of what our Church has to offer us.

Just my $0.15 worth - just filed my taxes and it is going up fast!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I am traditional in doctrine and morals. In Mass attendance, I attend a so-called “Novus Ordo” parish. I enjoy and appreciate the vernacular Mass at my parish.

That being said, if there were a Tridentine/1962 Latin Mass available at a reasonable travel distance from my home, I would attend that one instead, simply from an aesthetic point of view.

Going further, my ideal would be the Tridentine Rite
done entirely in English – the English on the right-hand side of the page of the 1962 Missal, that is !! Certainly NOT an
ICEL translation of the Tridentine Mass – I think THAT would be a disaster.

Jaypeeto4