How many were killed?

[Sword_Brethren]

Please remember that before any Protestant laid hands on a Catholic under Elizabeth, many hundreds of Protestants were killed under Mary I (Bloody Mary), and these included three saintly bishops, Archbishop Cranmer, and Bishops Ridley and Lattimer. .

Cranmer I don’t think so. “Thomas Cranmer… though a priest, had taken to himself a wife, whose existence he carefully concealed.”
Church History
by FR. Laux
page 447

Cranmer, “helped build a favourable case for Henry’s divorce from Catherine of Aragon.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cranmer

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Please remember that before any Protestant laid hands on a Catholic under Elizabeth, many hundreds of Protestants were killed under Mary I (Bloody Mary), and these included three saintly bishops, Archbishop Cranmer, and Bishops Ridley and Lattimer. .

Don’t forget the crimes of Henry VIII that started it all.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

I don’t think we can extrapolate from recent genocides which side the Almighty prefers.

So true, my friend. In fact, if I ever find myself fortunate enough to be standing before the beatific vision, I’m pretty sure that even the most casual glance to my left and right will reveal the presence not only of protestants, but a large number of people who didn’t even think of themselves as Christians. And, of course, there will be MANY who have called themselves Catholics who won’t even be present (I sincerely pray I won’t be one of them!).

 

[gcnuss]

Have Lutherans ever apologized for the actions of Luther towards the anabaptists/baptists???

It is, perhaps, a bit late, but here goes:

LWF Council Unanimously Adopts Statement Asking Forgiveness from Mennonites
LWI Council Press Release No. 09/2009

Mennonites Welcome this Move toward Reconciliation, Says MWC General Secretary Miller

GENEVA, 26 October 2009 (LWI) - The Council of The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) has approved a statement that prepares for a significant action of reconciliation with churches of the Anabaptist family.

With this endorsement, the statement “Action on the Legacy of Lutheran Persecution of ‘Anabaptists’” is recommended for adoption at the July 2010 LWF Eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart, Germany. The statement expresses “deep regret and sorrow” for the legacy of violent persecution of Anabaptists, and especially for the ways in which Lutheran reformers supported this persecution with theological arguments. It asks forgiveness, “from God and from our Mennonite sisters and brothers,” for these past wrongs and also for the ways in which later Lutherans have forgotten or ignored this persecution and have continued to describe Anabaptists in misleading and damaging ways.

The statement then makes commitments with respect to how the violent history of persecution by Lutherans will be remembered, and how the Lutheran confessional legacy will be interpreted from now on in light of this action.

This LWF action was based upon the work done by the Lutheran-Mennonite Study Commission, 2005-2009. Their report “Healing of Memories: Reconciling in Christ,” was received by the Council, which commended the Commission for “its thorough and important work.”

Receiving recommendations from the Program Committee for Ecumenical Affairs today, the Council also agreed that the International Lutheran Council (ILC) is informed about the report and statement, and that ILC’s participation is invited in affirming regret and sorrow over the Lutheran persecution of Anabaptists.

The Council requested the LWF General Secretary to send this report and statement to the LWF member churches for information, study and discussion, and possible responses. Both documents would also be made available to pre-assembly delegates for discussion at their meetings.

Celebration and Prayer

After the unanimous vote, Rev. Dr Larry Miller, general secretary of the Mennonite World Conference (MWC), welcomed the action in a spirit of celebration and prayer. The July 2009 MWC Assembly meeting in Asunción, Paraguay, had warmly received the news that Lutherans might take such an action and had promised to “walk with” Lutherans in their process. Miller said that this request for forgiveness would require that Mennonites also would change.

“You are not applauding for yourselves,” said Miller. “You are applauding for the grace of God in our midst. Mennonites have learned from Lutherans that we are justified by faith alone, because we know that justification produces not only relations between oneself and God but also communion between the churches.”

LWF General Secretary Rev. Dr Ishmael Noko congratulated the Commission for its work, and expressed his hope that the Stuttgart Assembly “would be a landmark,” in view of the anticipated action. “Our children will be proud of this day,” Noko remarked. He noted that Lutherans and Mennonites already are working together around the world; this action would move such cooperation to a new level.

Referring to the MWC global conference in Asunción, attended by the LWF general secretary and his assistant for ecumenical affairs Dr Kathryn Johnson, Noko added, “[We] wept like children in Paraguay when we saw how the Mennonites would embrace us.”

The dialogue reconciliation process began in 1980 during the 450th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession, when representatives of Mennonite churches raised questions about how they could join in celebrations of a document which explicitly condemned Anabaptists and their teachings.

In 1980, the LWF Executive Committee expressed sorrow for the pain and suffering caused by the condemnations and called on member churches “to celebrate our common Lutheran heritage with a spirit both of gratitude and penitence.”

In 2002, the LWF Council established the Lutheran-Mennonite International Study Commission in partnership with the MWC.

During its work the Commission had discovered that the history of persecution consistently intervened in their efforts at theological discussion. Telling the history together would in itself be an act of reconciliation.

The Council is meeting at Chavannes-de-Bogis near Geneva, Switzerland. Its sessions conclude tomorrow, with further actions on recommendations from the respective program committees.

 

[steve53]

A little off-topic, but I just read an interesting book on the persecutions of the Christians by Nero, called “Fires of Rome” and written by John Hagan. Hagan suggests that the persecutions were instigated by Poppea Sabina, the wife of Nero, who herself was influenced by a former Temple High Priest Ismael, and possibly the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus himself! The finger also is pointed at Paul the Apostle, who was also in Rome at that time (A.D. 64), and was not shy about insulting the rich and powerful, and believed his destiny was to stand before Caesar. Hagan also suggests that Nero, who liked to sing, give musical concerts, and act in plays publicly, was not at heart a cruel man.
How many were killed? Probably one or two thousand. Rome had about a million inhabitants at that time.

 

[abucs]

Previously, people could only guess at the number of prisoners executed during the Spanish Inquisition.

Before the files were opened a few years ago the numbers guessed at were vastly exaggerated for political reasons and this is why the Spanish Inquisition had (has ??) such an elevated position in world persecution terms.

After the files were opened and scholars began to read cases and put together estimates for incomplete records, the numbers came down from millions to between 3000 and 4000. Some scholars take the number up to as high as 5000.

This was over a period of 356 years and covered all Spanish territories with an average of slightly less than 1 prisoner executed per month.

By comparison the state of Texas has executed over 450 prisoners since 1976 or on average slightly more than 1 per month.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Texas

I don’t think Catholics are “soul-searching” over the Spanish Inquisition. Especially since it is cited as the greatest act of persecution that the Catholic Church is known for but was actually run by secular Spanish authorities, often with Church opposition, and in medieval times when Spain was involved in many brutal conflicts. Unlike the Texas of today.

 

[KathleenGee]

www.pavetheway.org, a Jewish organization, was allowed, like the rest of the world, access to church documents, and after looking through several, they wondered why the Church didn’t defend itself more.

Any devout Catholic has experienced atleast once or twice, other church going nincompoops who were totally out of line and refused to obey the pastor.

The Church finally opened the documents of the Spanish Inquisition in 2003. I have had no time to go through them. But they were most highly documented. About 6,000 people died at the hands of the laity. I don’t know how many Torquemada was responsible for.

The Church exonerated most of the accused which you won’t hear about.

What you also don’t hear about is how many millions and millions of people who have died under communism…incredible people seem to ignore what they did to their own people.

It is said Islam is responsible for the death of 230 million people over a course of 1400 years…

And it is the state, not religion, that is responsible for killing more people than religion in the history of man.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It doesn’t really benefit or impact any of us in this forum to know how many lives have been slaughtered with abandon by all branches of Christianity. All have blood on their hands. I remember about 8 years ago when I was thinking of returning to Catholicism from Anglicanism I had a high-profile priest from EWTN write to me in a private email and say, “how can you in good conscience stay with Anglicans? Look at how many hundreds of lives they took from Catholic priests! How can you be a member of a body that was drawing and quartering Catholic priests and bishops? Do you want that on your conscience?”
I was blown away that he actually felt like somehow a member of a congregation has the sins of the fathers on his soul. Catholics slaughtered in the Inquisition (I know we hear the typical ‘the Church wasn’t officially in the Inquisition, it was the Spanish government’ yada yada) and they had plenty of Protestant blood on their hands. But so did the Anglicans. Bloody Mary Tudor, the Catholic Queen, killed far less Anglicans than Elizabeth I and Edward VI killed Catholics. We know that Calvin liked a high body count in Geneva, plenty of folks died in the Peasants War that deeply troubled Luther, and on and on…and many American Protestants had the blood of Native Americans to account for.

These things are in the past so argument and debate about body bags and who killed the most is fruitless. Religion has been a bloody affair.

We must focus on the theology, dogmas, history, and truth of Christianity—which church is right theologically, not which one leads the CSI body count…

 

[KathleenGee]

Gurney, agree. There is sin on all sides of conflict. What made me add is the propaganda the left wing secularists are teaching the young people, including those in junior and senior high, that religion has caused more deaths in the world than any other institution.

One thing that has helped the Jewish people is knowing that several thousand German Catholic priests were executed by the Nazis for speaking out against them.

 

[shawn38]

That is complete bull.

If one Bishop, Cardinal, Priest took part in any Inqusition it was the Roman Catholic Chruch supporting it. The fact no Pope stopped this outrage with a clear ban is enough for me to say the Church cleary supported it.

The bigger issue was that the Inquisition was by Papal decree.

Papal bulls entitled

1184 Ad abolendam, “For the purpose of doing away with.”
1231 Excommunicamus
1252 Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sacrilege of the Eucharist is the grave responsibility of the Church. It is a very grave sin against no one other than the Lord Himself.

The excesses of the inquisition were due to the temporal laity. The best source to read and understand the Inquisition are the documents themselves…

 

[Philena]

Unfortunately, the rumor persists among many Fundamentalists that the Inquisition claimed the lives of 25 million people.

 

[grace_singh]

i think it’s interesting how few responders have actually answered the question which was, simply how many people died under the Inquisitions.

i see a lot of posts about Stalin, Queen Elizabeth, Protestants, Communism, and Hitler, but not a lot of posts actually answering or attempting to answer the original question.

which is not too different from the responses i see about the sex abuse scandal within the CC. lots of posts about Protestants, secular sexual abuse, general abuse statistics across the maps, sexual abuse in other Christian churches, and human psychology, and far fewer posts actually addressing the issues as pretain to those guilty priests of the Catholic Church, and their sins and responsibilities.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_exstirpanda
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Death_tolls

**so how many people actually died under the Inquisition? that is the question.

as other have posted, a realistic number could be anywhere from 3,000-5,000 people.**

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

The bigger issue was that the Inquisition was by Papal decree.

Papal bulls entitled

1184 Ad abolendam, “For the purpose of doing away with.”
1231 Excommunicamus
1252 Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors.

Could you post a link to those please?

FSC

 

[KathleenGee]

6,000 died in the Spanish Inquisition. The Church exonerated most that were accused. These were executed by temporal rulers…

Do you know the history of Spain? It will explain the Spanish psyche.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Is an abortionist that has killed 50 babies any less of a murderer than an abortionist that has killed 500 babies.

Questioning the relevance of this thread.

 

[Dokimas]

I can tell you with confidence that the number of Christians murdered by Stalin’s regime in the USSR far exceeds the number of innocents tortured and killed by the Spanish Inquisition.

And I will note also that the Spanish Inquisition was masterminded and utilized by Their Catholic Majesties Ferdinand and Isabella (yes, that Ferdinand and Isabella), mostly from political and economic motives.

How can you compare what an atheist did to what people who represented the church did?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Is an abortionist that has killed 50 babies any less of a murderer than an abortionist that has killed 500 babies.

Questioning the relevance of this thread.

Actually thinking about this, there is some relevance in that misrepresenting numbers (whether it be 30,000 Protestant denominations or 25 million killed by the inquisition) only weakens your case and makes you look irresponsible).

But as far as moral theology goes, I fail to see how numbers (whether it be 1 killed by John Calvin or 3000 killed by the inquisition) make all that much of a difference.

 

[Ignatius]

One is too many!

You may find this interesting: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2296445

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I still say it’s a lot more productive to argue theology than body counts.