How much can you trust psychology?

[CopticChristian]

If you’ve had no experience with psychiatrists, then why are you talking about brain chemistry? That’s not the expertise of a psychologist. The fact is, pschiatry has a pretty hit and miss record of actual healing anybody, but they do “effectively treat” which means the symptoms are held artificially under control by psychoactive medication, but true healing is from God or if you prefer, good psychology. It isn’t from medicine.

I have a lot to say about the way religion was taught and demonstrated when I was young. I’m not sure exactly how I’d explain my ideas on this, because I have strong preferences but never put them into words. I’ll not try too hard just now, lest I sidetrack the thread.

True, but anybody who knows me has seen the transformation, including my pastor and my psychiatrist. My experiences are completely healthy and getting even better at a rapid pace. This was something that medicine said couldn’t happen. A Federal Judge aptly found me totally and pernanently disabled due to mental illness. I’m saying that the Lord took me on a trajectory that healed me. I can also help others find comfort, and love to do it when I get the chance.

Just call me … Cinderella Man: the manic depressive who walks in the rain – Rush

Alan

You may be interested in the 60 minute expose that you can view here suggesting that the whole chemical imbalance thing is overblown and that antidepressants don’t work.

minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/02/60-minutes-antidepressants-report-may-be-explosive-its-not-new

 

[onthisrock]

There is a difference between being “esteemed” and self esteem, Just as there is a difference between humility and humiliation. One is more of a sense that all things don’t come from you alone, but you do deserve self respect and a code of ethics that you are able to stay true to. Many of us have addictions or mental illnesses that affect the self or “self esteem” by way of that person not standing for what they believe. Example…you are a Catholic, but because of a sex addiction, you have one night stands or watch pornography…You REALLY want to be a good Catholic but horrible forces either through the dark world, or pure biological mental disturbance that includes poor impulse control is an obvious issue. I do think that the etymology of “self esteem” has really gone off the grid in many of these conversations. The thread was about trusting Psychology. There have been many wonderful points for and against it. I say if you are a very informed consumer, and trust your gut, that things should be OK. The one thing about the medical/social services industry is that there should always be measurable goals, within a working time frame. If you’re seeing the same psychotherapist for years and years…and that person is not helping you stay true to your values or co-signing bad behavior, you have to run the other direction. As far as people who need medications. If your doctor puts you on multiple drugs the first time he meets you…go find someone else. You have to try one thing at a time to even see if that one med is helping. My doctor is not only an awesome minimalist in terms of meds, but is a great Catholic. that means a lot to me. God Bless everyone who is suffering

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Very meaningful…I liked the song.Nobody can steal your dreams.Maybe nobody is trying to,just they do not understand them.

That is true. That have kind of the same effect, though, depending on how they treat you.

My only concern in this thread,is that it is not advisable in my opinion and experience,to run away from psychologists/iatrist by default.Cause I may of course understand how it worked,for you,but sometimes,in my experience,God wants you to trust these areas of science as well.I have often seen how people have worsened just by seeing the devil everywhere and kind of undergoing religious gluttony to find answers,when in fact,they could have been healed by medicine.And this does not mean I am right,I am sharing my perspective only.

I would not have made it without the help of psychiatry. I agree not to avoid them.

Just know that they are specialists, and some are better at seeing beyond their own particular schooling better than others. You have a physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, sexual, and social component. A disorder among any of them can cause symptoms that look like any of the others to a specialist who sees everything from one narrow perspective. So for example, if I am demon possessed a doctor might say I was schizo or manic and give me a pill. Pill might help, but it isn’t going to fix it. Still a good idea to take it because the psychiatrist is acting based on symptoms.

Alan

You may be interested in the 60 minute expose that you can view here suggesting that the whole chemical imbalance thing is overblown and that antidepressants don’t work.

minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/02/60-minutes-antidepressants-report-may-be-explosive-its-not-new

I’ll check it out! Tyvm.

Alan

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I have had someone consistently tell me that for years, and for some reason it just doesn’t sink in.

It’s like that scene from Incredibles

Mrs. Incredible: Everyone’s special Dash.

Dash: Which is another way of saying no one is.

There shouldn’t be any doubt that God loves everybody. However, just saying those words can be quite hollow if people don’t try to at least make that love relevant to you as an individual and not just because you’re a part of a mindless, collective mass.

It has to happen in company of the Holy Spirit for it to sink in.

And as always, the self-proclaimed spiritual types of CAF recommend a magical ‘spiritual’ solution.

Good God, just what is it that you people have against wanting something more tangible?

 

[mamaslo]

It’s like that scene from Incredibles

There shouldn’t be any doubt that God loves everybody. However, just saying those words can be quite hollow if people don’t try to at least make that love relevant to you as an individual and not just because you’re a part of a mindless, collective mass.

And as always, the self-proclaimed spiritual types of CAF recommend a magical ‘spiritual’ solution.

Good God, just what is it that you people have against wanting something more tangible?

LW,
If they haven’t been there then they just cannot understand it. My point was that I do have a relationship with God. When a person hasn’t been through an actual depression, or some other mental illness, then they debunk it by saying I don’t pray enough, that I just hafta believe. That it is the unseen enemy and it must be that demon underneath every bush.

I am a child of God. I know that, but just because I reach out for help in whatever the latest study is of mental illness, and maybe there is some “guinea pig” aspect to the science of it, because of all the situations, all the chemistry, all the genetics, etc is as individual as each of us.

There are those in the field that believe that God has no part in mental health, and others who say religion is a healthy aspect, etc. If something works, well then it works.

My point was, that I have no self-esteem. I don’t like the term, either, but it is the one they use today. I am supposed to be last, I am supposed to be servant of all, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t know I have worth in God’s eyes or in your eyes (we are His hands and feet afterall!). I know He loves me, but, I feel like a disappointment to him, like I am unaffective, and unlovable to people because of so many shortcomings. I have depression. I see a therapist, I see a psychiatrist, and I take medicine. Is it helping? So far not what I thought it would do or what it helped me with last time.

Too many people, pile on the guilt already doled out to people like me by saying, you need and exorcism or you need to pray more.

There are actual chemical misfirings going on in my brain. Medicine helps but it isn’t perfect…it’s medicine. It is better than nothing at all. A diabetic uses insulin. I use an antidepressant. Both are for some kind of imbalance or improper bodily function.

Does a diabetic who uses insulin get cured? No. Does he still experience mood swings, neuropathy on his extremities? What about organ damage? Yes.

Should he still take the insulin?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

And as always, the self-proclaimed spiritual types of CAF recommend a magical ‘spiritual’ solution.

Good God, just what is it that you people have against wanting something more tangible?

If you don’t think there is a spiritual solution to problems, then your “Lost Wanderer” title is a good one because I don’t know why you’re even on a religion-based forum except to bash those who actually believe in what they are here for.

Alan

 

[mamaslo]

If you don’t think there is a spiritual solution to problems, then your “Lost Wanderer” title is a good one because I don’t know why you’re even on a religion-based forum except to bash those who actually believe in what they are here for.

Alan

Don’t read into what was said. That isn’t fair to presume.

There is more than the spiritual realm even on a religion-based site.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Don’t read into what was said. That isn’t fair to presume.

There is more than the spiritual realm even on a religion-based site.

You tell me what it means, then, when a person tells people who are religious and spiritual – at least spiritual wannabee, implies impatience at those who look for mystical solutions, how that isn’t a general dismissal of the entire concept of religion – which is a subset of spirituality which follows the laws of mysticism? What are we here for, to organize a military uprising?

Alan

 

[BenedictFTW]

Read “The Road Less Travelled” by M Scott Peck - great insight into this subject. He also wrote “Further down the Road Less Travelled”, which is also great. Then read “People of the Lie”. He wrote the first book before converting to Catholicism, but you can see that he is a seeker of truth. Psychology, as such, is in its infancy.

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

When you say different churchs? Are these Catholic? IMHO these churchs are entertaining your fears and anxiety and I don’t see how this is helping you. Certainly these are not Catholic. Have you taked to a Catholic Priest?
Mostly church with Pentecostal leanings. Which is why I question whether they are right. Those churches have been wrong about things before.
You have heard voices since childhood?
Well, no. First started having them when I was about 20. And flashbacks or something along the sort. The flashbacks actually began at about age 16.

Did you open a window for evil, satanic rituals. anything?
Yes. I would collect “Dark Magic” cards at about age 7 or 8. My brother and his friends would play the game, and I would watch. That was before I became a Chrisitan. I do know things began to fall apart about that time.
Have you sought a second opinion?
From Psychologists, who claim demons are not real.
First time with treatment? First Doctor?
In the hospital after having suicidal thoughts.
Has any med ever worked or is this the first time?
They are just starting to really work.
Are you taking the meds exactly as prescribed?
Yes
Are you self-medicating along with the meds for this situation?

Have the meds been taken long enough to take effect?
Yes
Are the auditory hallucinations increasing, decreasing, remaining the same?
Decreasing, but definetely still there.
Do you pray, use Holy Water and Sacramentals? What happens then?
Prayer, and I was anionted with oil at the church.
Have you ever been in a psychiatric unit before, or is this something new?
Pretty new.
As far as evil with Catholic’s, use the search engine here I’m sure theres a lot of info.

Well there was some things people refer to as abuse. Being locked up in my room and beaten when I didn’t necessarily do anything wrong. There was some SA as well, but i only know because they continued til adulthood. Hope this helps.

 

[mamaslo]

You tell me what it means, then, when a person tells people who are religious and spiritual – at least spiritual wannabee, implies impatience at those who look for mystical solutions, how that isn’t a general dismissal of the entire concept of religion – which is a subset of spirituality which follows the laws of mysticism? What are we here for, to organize a military uprising?

Alan

We don’t only follow the laws of mysticism. It is all a balance. We are all on a journey to figure out that balance. My point has been dismissed, also, right here.

Even the Church has said psychology is worthy of exploring.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

We don’t only follow the laws of mysticism. It is all a balance. We are all on a journey to figure out that balance. My point has been dismissed, also, right here.

Even the Church has said psychology is worthy of exploring.

Who in the world said anything against psychology? Not me.

There are too many psychiatrists and psychologists who do as much damage as good, but that’s an indictment to the way psychiatry is administered, and nothing against the field itself.

But we all follow the laws of mysticism, just as naturally and helplessly as we follow the laws of physics. Mystical Theology is a discovery of truth, not a man-made set of rules to follow. Religion is man’s attempt at guiding us in mysticism, as well as psychology is. Both try to investigate and offer assistance at programming the mind in areas of happiness and peace, but one says “the Spirit renews our hearts and minds” and the other says “becomes self-actualized.” In the mystical world, I’d call that: potayto, potahto.

Alan

 

[mamaslo]

Who in the world said anything against psychology? Not me.

There are too many psychiatrists and psychologists who do as much damage as good, but that’s an indictment to the way psychiatry is administered, and nothing against the field itself.

But we all follow the laws of mysticism, just as naturally and helplessly as we follow the laws of physics. Mystical Theology is a discovery of truth, not a man-made set of rules to follow. Religion is man’s attempt at guiding us in mysticism, as well as psychology is. Both try to investigate and offer assistance at programming the mind in areas of happiness and peace, but one says “the Spirit renews our hearts and minds” and the other says “becomes self-actualized.” In the mystical world, I’d call that: potayto, potahto.

Alan

Yes, as far as the Church goes, it amazes me the problems I have had with it and that others have, our theology is amazing.

I didn’t say you had a problem with psychology. But you seemed to be getting upset and I really don’t want this discussion to go that way, and then…it gets shut down.

Very often people, like myself, who have a low self-esteem…(which i hate the term, but will use it in this case) and suffer from depression, are told…if you pray more, if you just believe…and I actually have a physical problem in my brain, like the others who suffer from this. Prayer helps, mediation helps, Eucharist and reconciliation…help, but if you have a medical condition and God chooses not to heal it, then I have to live with this cross. The problem is that I find no joy in it. I see myself as lousy, and el-lame-o. Call it low self-esteem if you must, but regardless of the label, I don’t think God would want me to feel this way, yet, it is what it is. I have to use the resources I have. Medicine, psychology, psychiatry…

It does make me nervous a bit on the other sites, as religion is a trigger for some and it causes flasback episodes from PTSD, and depression…because of the misuse of religion and the mystical.

One person has read the writings of Ekert Tolle (sp?) and it really started to irritate me. It was like the priciples of God, the mystical things…with God stripped out. It was “funny” that I didn’t have a problem with the principles, because I thought to myself…we are taught this from day one as Catholics. More as a line of thinking than the actual theology. But I found it rather irritating as they left God out.

So a certain amount of discernment, even with misfiring synapses is required. but I need that here as well, not just over there. There are some things that are very balanced with the variety of people that meet on those sites.

now I think I am rambling.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, as far as the Church goes, it amazes me the problems I have had with it and that others have, our theology is amazing.

I didn’t say you had a problem with psychology. But you seemed to be getting upset and I really don’t want this discussion to go that way, and then…it gets shut down.

Very often people, like myself, who have a low self-esteem…(which i hate the term, but will use it in this case) and suffer from depression, are told…if you pray more, if you just believe…and I actually have a physical problem in my brain, like the others who suffer from this. Prayer helps, mediation helps, Eucharist and reconciliation…help, but if you have a medical condition and God chooses not to heal it, then I have to live with this cross. The problem is that I find no joy in it. I see myself as lousy, and el-lame-o. Call it low self-esteem if you must, but regardless of the label, I don’t think God would want me to feel this way, yet, it is what it is. I have to use the resources I have. Medicine, psychology, psychiatry…

It does make me nervous a bit on the other sites, as religion is a trigger for some and it causes flasback episodes from PTSD, and depression…because of the misuse of religion and the mystical.

One person has read the writings of Ekert Tolle (sp?) and it really started to irritate me. It was like the priciples of God, the mystical things…with God stripped out. It was “funny” that I didn’t have a problem with the principles, because I thought to myself…we are taught this from day one as Catholics. More as a line of thinking than the actual theology. But I found it rather irritating as they left God out.

So a certain amount of discernment, even with misfiring synapses is required. but I need that here as well, not just over there. There are some things that are very balanced with the variety of people that meet on those sites.

now I think I am rambling.

Mam,

Somehow labels mean something and changing a label can change the concept. Consider something that means something that is not necessarily quantitative.

Altered Self-esteem
Unsatisfactory Self-esteem
Different Self-esteem
Changing Self-esteem
Dynamic Self-esteem
Uncharacteristic self-esteem
Created self-esteem
Christ like self-esteem
Regenerated self-esteem
Prayerful self-esteem

it is your self-esteem and you can call it what you like…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I didn’t say you had a problem with psychology. But you seemed to be getting upset and I really don’t want this discussion to go that way, and then…it gets shut down.

Oh, not at all. Not at all upset. I tend to think differently than a lot of people, sometimes I’m unique in a crowd in my views on things. I love to hear alternate views because a) it helps me shape what I believe, and b) sometimes they are interesting and worth investigating or even tapping.

Very often people, like myself, who have a low self-esteem…(which i hate the term, but will use it in this case) and suffer from depression, are told…if you pray more, if you just believe…and I actually have a physical problem in my brain, like the others who suffer from this. Prayer helps, mediation helps, Eucharist and reconciliation…help, but if you have a medical condition and God chooses not to heal it, then I have to live with this cross. The problem is that I find no joy in it. I see myself as lousy, and el-lame-o. Call it low self-esteem if you must, but regardless of the label, I don’t think God would want me to feel this way, yet, it is what it is. I have to use the resources I have. Medicine, psychology, psychiatry…

Excellent. I understand you perfectly.

People who haven’t been in your shoes, tell you how you should proceed about fixing yourself. Chances are, you’re fixing yourself from a problem they have but don’t admit to it because the symptoms don’t happen to be visible like yours. If you have physical brain damage, then I still think there’s huge hope for improvement despite it,

It does make me nervous a bit on the other sites, as religion is a trigger for some and it causes flasback episodes from PTSD, and depression…because of the misuse of religion and the mystical.

I hope you can have a good discussion here. If it doesn’t work out, I have some ideas we can exchange by PM.

One person has read the writings of Ekert Tolle (sp?) and it really started to irritate me. It was like the priciples of God, the mystical things…with God stripped out. It was “funny” that I didn’t have a problem with the principles, because I thought to myself…we are taught this from day one as Catholics. More as a line of thinking than the actual theology. But I found it rather irritating as they left God out.

I don’t read much, and never that guy, but there are really two flavors of theology that interest me. One is the theology of the Church, which would be her teachings and rules. the other is Mystical Theology which I am currently reading a book about, and that is about how the human mind and heart works, so it isn’t about Church teachings; it’s about natural law.

So a certain amount of discernment, even with misfiring synapses is required. but I need that here as well, not just over there. There are some things that are very balanced with the variety of people that meet on those sites.

now I think I am rambling.

Father in heaven, I ask that you let mamaslo taste the kingdom you have where there is no judgment and no guilt, blame, or shame. Amen.

Alan

 

[mamaslo]

Thank you, Alan.

BTW, I don’t have brain damage. I have dysthymia…long term low level depression…and situational depression on top of that.

The Mystical Theology book sounds interesting. What ar you reading?

 

[graciew]

We don’t only follow the laws of mysticism. It is all a balance. We are all on a journey to figure out that balance. My point has been dismissed, also, right here.

Even the Church has said psychology is worthy of exploring.

I agree with you.We do not follow the laws of mysticism.And also that even priests go to the psychologist,etc if needed.
To tell you the truth,often times I do run away from mysticism,or "supposed"mystics,the difficult ,the complicated,the inaccesible,cause every now and then I need the simple,the basic,what I can touch,see,hear and smell.Period.And give thanks for that.
Many times I think of the people I know that are not learned,very simple in basic environments and how happy and godly they are.They are themselves and that is the best of all. I think this is the journey for balance.Go back to be grateful and simple.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thank you, Alan.

BTW, I don’t have brain damage. I have dysthymia…long term low level depression…and situational depression on top of that.

The Mystical Theology book sounds interesting. What ar you reading?

I’m reading Mystical Theology book by William Johnston.

 

[graciew]

.

Well there was some things people refer to as abuse. Being locked up in my room and beaten when I didn’t necessarily do anything wrong. There was some SA as well, but i only know because they continued til adulthood. Hope this helps.

Jesusismy friend,I did not ask these questions,but what you are going through must hurt much.
Forgiveness is a hard road when there has been such unfair treatment.
It is good to hear you are starting to note the positive effects of the treatment.
I just could not let pass your post unnoticed.
I´ll be praying for you.

 

[graciew]

That is true. That have kind of the same effect, though, depending on how they treat you.

Just know that they are specialists, and some are better at seeing beyond their own particular schooling better than others. You have a physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, sexual, and social component. A disorder among any of them can cause symptoms that look like any of the others to a specialist who sees everything from one narrow perspective. So for example, if I am demon possessed a doctor might say I was schizo or manic and give me a pill. Pill might help, but it isn’t going to fix it. Still a good idea to take it because the psychiatrist is acting based on symptoms.
Alan

Yes,I understand what you are saying.That is why I personally do have a generalist doctor who has an overview of everything and helps much to put pieces together when the time comes.And he is a man of faith,same as my psychologists have been.^probably this has helped,as you say,to see the unit and not loose pieces on a chess board.
Now I would like to ask you something frankly,just your experience,I mean.
Have you ever experienced that when you are mentally unhealthy(to put it somehow) religion,spiritual gluttony,and kind of difficult and complicated,intrincated readings/quests can become an obsession and make you worse?
I am not saying to stay away from God,nor prayer nor anything of the sort.