How Much Is Too Much? (Regarding Material Wealth)

[E.E.N.S]

Jay Leno actually has a car collection that he actively drives that easily exceeds 42.

Otherwise, do you have practical advise? In your amassed wisdom, how do you make sure you are not turning your back on your brother in need? Do you follow a tithe policy (10%)? Do you identify essentials in your budget and then allot the remaining amount to primarily charity and a small amount to luxury?

Right now, I have such a small income with so many essentials (student loans, gas money, car insurance, health insurance, etc.) that I have hardly anything left to work with when it’s all said and done. Right now I’m struggling to figure out how to spend my money in a way that doesn’t ignore the great needs of others while still enjoying the fruits of my labor.

While I do know that I don’t agree with collecting tons of material wealth, I don’t know how to draw the line. It’s easy to see that owning 5 cars and four houses for personal use is excessive. At the same time, I also recognize that it’s ok to own some luxuries. Personally, my hobbies are my luxuries and one of them in particular, video games, can get really expensive if I’m not careful.

After reading your posts, I would have to say that you and I think alike.

When I ask myself this question “How much do I give? When is enough, enough?”, I give a saintly answer (that I don’t adhere to ), “When there is nothing left to give.” I really makes one appreciate the vow of poverty that religious take.

 

[mary_bobo]

Jay Leno actually has a car collection that he actively drives that easily exceeds 42.

Otherwise, do you have practical advise? In your amassed wisdom, how do you make sure you are not turning your back on your brother in need? Do you follow a tithe policy (10%)? Do you identify essentials in your budget and then allot the remaining amount to primarily charity and a small amount to luxury?

Right now, I have such a small income with so many essentials (student loans, gas money, car insurance, health insurance, etc.) that I have hardly anything left to work with when it’s all said and done. Right now I’m struggling to figure out how to spend my money in a way that doesn’t ignore the great needs of others while still enjoying the fruits of my labor.

While I do know that I don’t agree with collecting tons of material wealth, I don’t know how to draw the line. It’s easy to see that owning 5 cars and four houses for personal use is excessive. At the same time, I also recognize that it’s ok to own some luxuries. Personally, my hobbies are my luxuries and one of them in particular, video games, can get really expensive if I’m not careful.

There are many ways to help the poor and less fortunate. Money is one way, but volunteer work is another. There are many organizations that need help, literacy, hospices, hospitals, right to life organizations. There are so many more, but you get the idea. Our pastor always encourages us to give of our time, talent and treasure. If one can’t do a lot in one area, perhaps another area would fit the bill.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

There are many ways to help the poor and less fortunate. Money is one way, but volunteer work is another. There are many organizations that need help, literacy, hospices, hospitals, right to life organizations. There are so many more, but you get the idea. Our pastor always encourages us to give of our time, talent and treasure. If one can’t do a lot in one area, perhaps another area would fit the bill.

You are absolutely right! I must admit that I am much more charitable in my time than I am with my money!!

After reading your posts, I would have to say that you and I think alike.

When I ask myself this question “How much do I give? When is enough, enough?”, I give a saintly answer (that I don’t adhere to ), “When there is nothing left to give.” I really makes one appreciate the vow of poverty that religious take.

I have lots of saintly answers! (Ignore my life)

It’s kinda’ funny but I was thinking about the possibility of becoming a religious brother and I thought to myself “I’m pretty much ok with giving up almost everything, heck, even my video games, but how can I honestly give up my mountain bike?!?!?!”

Call me shallow but I LOVE mountain biking and have a hard time justifying giving it up (although medical accidents would surely be less of a concern if I were give up my hobby.)

 

[contemplative]

I think that C.S. Lewis offers a good rule of thumb. His focus isn’t so much on material wealth in lump sum personal savings but rather how and why and how much wealth is distributed…or should be in a real Christian society.

Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis

Social Morality

One more point and I am done. In the passage where the New Testament says that every one must work, it gives as a reason ‘in order that he may have something to give to those in need’. Charity—giving to the poor—is an essential part of Christian morality: in the frightening parable of the sheep and the goats it seems to be the point on which everything turns. Some people nowadays say that charity ought to be unnecessary and that instead of giving to the poor we ought to be producing a society in which there were no poor to give to. They may be quite right in saying that we ought to produce this kind of society. But if anyone thinks that, as a consequence, you can stop giving in the meantime, then he as parted company with all Christian mortality. I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare. In other words, if our expenditure on comforts, luxuries, amusements, etc., is up to the standard common among those with the same income as our own, we are probably giving away too little. If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things we should like to do because our charities expenditure excludes them. I am speaking now of ‘charities’ in the common way. Particular cases of distress among your own relatives, friends, neighbors or employees, which God, as it were, forces upon your notice, may demand much more: even to the crippling and endangering of your own position. For many of us the great obstacle to charity lies not in our luxurious living or desire for money, but in fear—fear of insecurity. Sometimes our pride also hinders our charity; we are tempted to spend more than we ought on the showy forms of generosity (tipping, hospitality) and less than we ought on those who really need our help.

So I think the OP’s thread question would serve all better if it focused more on charity rather than individual savings accounts.

 

[bankerdavid]

Thanks for the insight. Could you refer me to the passage that says “God helps those who help themselves” please… ??

OOPS! I fell into an old Protestant thing, and quoted something that’s not there. It does have truistic value though…

Does God help those who help themselves? In regards to salvation - no one is capable of helping themselves. God has provided for our salvation through Jesus Christ. We are utterly helpless in achieving our own salvation. In regards to the Christian life - sometimes yes. God will help us to accomplish His will in and through our lives…but God expects us to be active and energetic while seeking to accomplish His will. God rarely “helps” a person who is unwilling to participate in the process.

 

[E.E.N.S]

You are absolutely right! I must admit that I am much more charitable in my time than I am with my money!!

I have lots of saintly answers! (Ignore my life)

It’s kinda’ funny but I was thinking about the possibility of becoming a religious brother and I thought to myself “I’m pretty much ok with giving up almost everything, heck, even my video games, but how can I honestly give up my mountain bike?!?!?!”

Call me shallow but I LOVE mountain biking and have a hard time justifying giving it up (although medical accidents would surely be less of a concern if I were give up my hobby.)

Eh?! You sound just like me! I was considering becoming a religious brother as well, lol, (though now it looks like I am going to go a differen’t direction ) …also I LOVE mountain biking as well. I live in the Phoenix Metro area (AZ) and I ride a GF GED hardtail (with a full SAINT conversion, yeah, I like the name )…oh, and I like video games too, lol.

Okay, back to the topic.

 

[bankerdavid]

College Catholic… I think I understand what you are trying to get across. At what amount do we justify an earnable wage? Is it necessary for both parents to work just so they can afford a huge house, 2 cars, luxurious vacations and tons of extracurricular activities for the children and all the new toys and gadgets for the children. Money does matter when it is wasted on material things that do not matter in regards to our faith.

In my opinion, many Catholics are pretty darn greedy!

The last generalization applies to most Americans. Let’s look a little at where it comes from? I think you define “poor” as the inability to give normal comfort to those you’re supposed to protect-food, clothing, warmth and a roof to your family, in other words. Yet look at the majority of “poor” in this country. VCRs and DVDs and very nice TV’s, designer clothing (even if bought at Ross!). Most of the ones we consider poor in this country are not, at least not by world standards.

As for your assessment-does the average American family need both parents to work to maintain that nice home, both cars, golf, jewelry, etc. at the expense of the family unit? Most probably not. Maybe in the SF Bay Area (where a median home costs close to $600,000 or more), but having visited Atlanta, where a much larger home costs more like $300,000, and most of the rest of the land, you’re right. It is a mighty greedy country.

 

[Della]

My simple question is why is it ok to hold fellow Catholics accountable in so many ways and yet finances are a particular area in which no accountability is allowed. Also, accountability can’t be about becoming a better Christian youself, but loving your brothers and sisters enough to tell them when they are wrong in a loving and charitable way so that THEY may grow. Also, I’m not saying assume the worst but if someone has three vacation homes and just bragged about a pair of $300 shoes they just bought maybe it’s a good opportunity to bring up issues of poverty.

And to be eager to judge another’s heart and “tell them” what you think they are doing wrong is also a sin–and a pretty big one, too. Why not leave it to them and their confessor? Especially if you don’t know them and their situation as well as you may think you do. Whenever we are to warn a sinner about his sin our very first motivation ought to be for that person’s welfare, not out of any sense that we are implementing God’s justice on another. If you aren’t motivated by charity, then don’t do it–that’s the cardinal rule in this or any other issue.

Also, the bolded line worries me because this is the same line used to justify almost all of the sins of the world. If what someone did with their money had no effect on the rest of humanity then you might be justified in saying this but since that’s not reality, we need to turn to the very nature of sacramental reconciliation: Reconciling with both God and the community.

Because the distribution of one’s property is a private matter–that no one is privileged to know except the person, his confessor (if necessary) and God. We don’t have the right to poke our noses into people’s pocketbooks and tell them what they ought to be doing with their money. Maybe you are in a parish in which your priest(s) never mentions the needs of the poor and good stewardship of our resources, but I doubt it. Most priests do a very good job of preaching about this issue, if only more would be as bold about contraception and other such matters of sexual morality. That’s just as much about selfishness as hoarding of wealth, and just as grave a sin.

 

[leonie]

Okay, I think that material goods ownership is going to be different depending on state in life. I think that there are certain obligations to provide security for a family. For example, I think that an emergency savings account is essential. You should never be in a position that a couple of missed paychecks or a broken furnace might put you out on the street.

Also, I think that certain purchases can be justified to improve quality of life. For example, I think it would be okay to buy a second car or a labor saving appliance so a person can use that energy and time in spending more time on family or spiritual reading or fellowships.

As far as other extra purchases, I think they must be evaluated carefully. For example, I would like to have a bigger house so we have more room to entertain and more space for our kids so we are not bumping into each other. Certainly, though, the space we have is adequate.

One of the big problems I think is that we don’t deny ourselves even in little things. I am terrible at this. I usually buy some candy for myself when I shop. It would be much better to make that mortification and give that little bit of money to charity. How many little sacrifices could we make weekly? daily? It would strengthen us to better deny ourselves materially.

I’m terrible at this. I am trying though to keep some resolutions to do better.

Father Thomas Dubay in his book* Happy We Poor* says that it is not enough to be detached. We actually have to live evangelical poverty. He recommends looking to the lives of the saints as a model.

 

[bankerdavid]

That’s awesome if his work is that valued by customers. Again, it’s my personal opinion that income has nothing to do with it (aside from necessity of income for basic needs) and everything to do with what we do with the money. At the same time, hopefully people see a clear difference between the spending habits of a non-Catholic and a Catholic who earn the same per year.

That’s a good point about the tithe as well. At my income, 10% is huge as I have hardly anything left after I pay the essential bills. If I were making a whole lot more money the amount left after the essentials increases drastically.

“Essentials” can also be muddled easily. I pay close to the minimum insurance on my '96 Saturn with liability only coverage and yet if I own a luxury car, the insurance rate would rise drastically.

One problem I ran into, in your situation, was that it was easy to grow into the income. For example, I used to drink cheaper wine than I do now. I used to have no pets, but now I have a large fish tank. I used to drive a Hyundai, very unsafe car, now I have a nicer car-no Bently or Jaguar, but still a nicer car.

 

[E.E.N.S]

And to be eager to judge another’s heart and “tell them” what you think they are doing wrong is also a sin–and a pretty big one, too.

Actually there is a difference between judging someone’s heart and telling them that they may be doing something wrong. While judging a person’s heart (if it’s even possible) could be considered a sin, warning a person of a sinful habit is something we a Christians are supposed to do.

Della:

If you aren’t motivated by charity, then don’t do it–that’s the cardinal rule in this or any other issue.

In the very post you quoted CC said, “Also, accountability can’t be about becoming a better Christian youself, but loving your brothers and sisters enough to tell them when they are wrong in a loving and charitable way so that THEY may grow.” So it is very evident that CC was talking about being motivated by charity.

 

[LSK]

Jay Leno actually has a car collection that he actively drives that easily exceeds 42.

Otherwise, do you have practical advise? In your amassed wisdom, how do you make sure you are not turning your back on your brother in need? Do you follow a tithe policy (10%)? Do you identify essentials in your budget and then allot the remaining amount to primarily charity and a small amount to luxury?

Right now, I have such a small income with so many essentials (student loans, gas money, car insurance, health insurance, etc.) that I have hardly anything left to work with when it’s all said and done. Right now I’m struggling to figure out how to spend my money in a way that doesn’t ignore the great needs of others while still enjoying the fruits of my labor.

While I do know that I don’t agree with collecting tons of material wealth, I don’t know how to draw the line. It’s easy to see that owning 5 cars and four houses for personal use is excessive. At the same time, I also recognize that it’s ok to own some luxuries. Personally, my hobbies are my luxuries and one of them in particular, video games, can get really expensive if I’m not careful.

Father Mitch Pacwa on EWTN recently interviewed a man who wrote a book for Catholics about finances. I could be wrong but believe the name of the book is 7 steps to Financial Freedom. Perhaps this book would help you discern what is best for you in terms of helping your brother in need, meeting your obligations, planning for the future and learning to be concerned with your finances in a manner that is in line with Catholic teachings.

 

[LSK]

First of all, it’s important to note that I did say that I can care less about initial income. There’s a big difference between using a massive income to fund charitable causes versus using a massive income to buy luxury yachts. My question to you would be: At what point do we hold our brothers and sisters accountable? Excuse me if I’m wrong but your message says to me “Never.” In this day of political correctness and “how dare you offend me” mentalities, has the very important issue of wealth been handed over to the world, even by us Catholics?

Accountable to WHAT?

The reality is you are asking us to put a specific dollar amount and/or possession amount on people and that smacks of communism and fascism.

I am not being politically correct if I tell you that it is not my place to publicly chastize someone for being wealthy because I don’t think I see them behaving in a Catholic manner - I don’t see them giving enough money away, or being generous enough, or I decide that they have too much stuff. What I am being is loving and generous.

Your message says to me that at some point I am supposed to walk up to someone I assume is not living according to the teachings of the Church as it pertains to their fiscal managment and publicly chastize them.

And no I do not believe this has anything to do with political correctness. In fact, in my opinion, that phrase is a cop-out one, used as a club to try and get people to ‘prove’ how Catholic they are…and that is sinful. In my opinion.

 

[thechrismyster]

THERE was a man in our town, and he was wondrous rich;
He gave away his millions to the colleges and sick;
And people cried: “The hypocrite! He ought to understand
The ones who really need him are the children of this land.”
When Andrew Croesus built a home for children who were sick,
The people said they rather thought he did it as a trick,
And writers said: “He thinks about the drooping girls and boys,
But what about conditions with the men whom he employs?”
There was a man in our town who said that he would share
His profits with his laborers, for that was only fair,
And people said: “Oh, isn’t he the shrewd and foxy gent?
It cost him next to nothing for that free advertisement.”
There was a man in our town who had the perfect plan
To do away with poverty and other ills of man,
But he feared the public jeering, and the folks who would defame him,
So he never told the plan he had, and I can hardly blame him.

-Franklin Pierce Adams

which leads us to the other side…

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need.”
Karl Marx

if your marxist, at least admit it. i won’t judge you. ')

 

[lcalise]

I tend to look at it in terms of what is the purpose of wealth accumulation. If it is a hording of material comforts for selfish reasons, then it is greedy. If it is supplying livelihood to another person, then it is practical, necessary and, if not good, then at least neutral.

Consider that without the exchange of material goods, there would be no economy and everyone’s lives would be horrible.

It is a fine and dangerous line, which is why I think the Lord cautioned against wealth. It is very easy to lose poverty in spirit when you’re rich in material. However, I think with a few conditions, you can be a good Catholic and not ‘cap’ your income.

1. You tithe
2. You do not immorally obtain your wealth (such as denying someone a just wage for the material or service you acquired)
3. You do not reject, diminish or avoid serving God because it might inconvenience your comfort level.

 

[Della]

Actually there is a difference between judging someone’s heart and telling them that they may be doing something wrong. While judging a person’s heart (if it’s even possible) could be considered a sin, warning a person of a sinful habit is something we a Christians are supposed to do.

Only if we KNOW the person is guilty of a wrongdoing not just if we don’t approve of what we think we know about their lives.

In the very post you quoted CC said, “Also, accountability can’t be about becoming a better Christian youself, but loving your brothers and sisters enough to tell them when they are wrong in a loving and charitable way so that THEY may grow.” So it is very evident that CC was talking about being motivated by charity.

Saying it and living it are also two different things.

 

[THutch04]

I don’t ever like to judge, but I do have some opinions about this subject:

-I expect someone with a higher income to live in a nicer house, drive a nicer car, go on more, fancier vactions ect.
-I also expect someone with more financial resources to contribute more to things such as college expenses. I see you’re a college student. I don’t know if this is true where you go to school, but at least at my college, there is a fairly good percentage of students who come from very well-off families, weren’t offered financial aid as a result, and then say that college is too expensive.

Some people may think that my family is well-off because we have multiple cars and that I go to a private college. Anyone who thinks that would be very wrong. We own multiple (used) cars because with two parents working at least two jobs, we need the vehicles to get all of income earners to and from work. And without generous financial aid (in scholarships AND in loans) a private college education would not even be a possibility. We’re much better off than so many people, and we’ve been very blessed that many of the luxuries we enjoy have come at little or no cost (we try our best to buy a lot of used things).

I think we really have to ask if we need the luxuries we insist on having. Do I “need” a new car, or go on an expensive vacation, or, even in my own life, a $3.00 cup of coffee everyday? Or instead, could I use that money towards something directed more to God?

 

[Gertabelle]

Look, I’ll be honest, I haven’t had the time to read all the other posts. But here’s my two cents’ worth (no pun intended).

I want to be wealthy. I want money, money, money. Why? In our society money is power. I want the power to start scholarship foundations. I want the power to create a family retreat center. I want the power to write a check for $20,000 for the charitable cause of my choice.

And here’s the flip side: I don’t make a lot of money. I’m a teacher, a single mom, and I play the piano at church (they pay me, for which I am grateful). Even all the good things I want to do with the money I want – I don’t need money to do them. I need only to choose which one I want to create first and start gathering people in my community to help create it.

Blessed Mother Teresa observed that in America we have a poverty that is much deeper than in India. We have a poverty of spirit. A large part of that is the illusion that I need only take care of my family, and that it’s bad or dangerous to help another person directly. (“I give money to the homeless shelter - I don’t need to offer our spare bedroom to the college student sleeping in their car.”)

How much is too much? Truly, God alone has the answer. He whispers it in the silence of my heart, and yours, and yours, and yours. The answers may not be the same.

But the REAL question is, what are you doing with the wealth of possessions you already own?

Gert

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

A book I found helpful on this subject is not a Catholic book, or even a book about grown-ups persay. It is about avoiding raising spoiled, materialistic brats. It’s called How Much Is Enough? by a group of psychologists, one named Bredehoft.

The book is useful to adults, in my opinion, because I think as adults in our society we tend to overindulges ourselves as well as our children. One good aspect of the book shows that what is “enough” for one person or family might very well be too much for another. It also shows clearly the too much in a lot of lives.

I also read an interesting article in This Rock that covered being poor in spirit versus providing for a family. I think it puts things in perspective.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am no thologian, but I try to pay attention to what the Church teaches. I would be considered wealthy by most people in the U.S., but not by most of the wealthy. (If that makes sense to you). So I am not an expert on wealth either. Still, I’ll give this topic a go.

Earning is one thing, and I agree it is irrelevant to the question at hand. Spending is relevant if it is wasteful. But clearly, we have obligations to others, and others are in need. The question is, really, what priorities should we have, and to what degree?

Seems to me we have an obligation not to be a burden on others. I might be mistaken, but I have little faith in the ability or willingness of the government to support me if I give away everything. In any event, that’s a zero sum game. If I live off the government, I am burdening someone else. Therefore, it seems to me that if I do not have a pension plan (which I do not) I have to have more wealth than those who do. I have grave concerns about the future of young people now. They are facing a huge burden not to long from now, in supporting the baby boomers. If I help my daughter buy a starter house, am I sinful in doing that, knowing others in Africa are starving? Should I not help my daughter?

I think I should donate to the starving, but I feel I have an obligation to my daughter if there is a possibility she will not be able to buy a house for her family, and will be a renter forever, or at least during the young years of her children, but for me.

Having said the above, I don’t know that there is any magic formula. Even tithing is a relative thing. For some, it’s not all that hard. For others, it could mean no house, a car that won’t run, a child who won’t get an education, and so on. Perhaps today I have an obligation to accumulate wealth, but tomorrow to give more than I receive. I wish this was an easy thing. But short of being destitute or a member of a religious order, I don’t know that there is any way NOT to constantly re-examine one’s life concerning the issues of wealth. I don’t think there is some formula by which we can be morally “kings X”.