How much Money should a Christian have?

[JRKH]

A Christian should have enough money to cover any debts they have and provide enough for the needs of their dependents.

Nicely put.
Then one must determine what are truly “needs” and what “needs” require their entring into “debt” for.

This is where prayer and discernment is critical.

Peace
James

 

[sinnerdexter]

This is not what the Church teaches. The rich young man, if he was keeping the commandments as he said he was, had done what is required for Salvation. If you are keeping the commandments, you are NOT in a state of mortal sin.

IMHO, either you are poor or rich you can serve the Lord. You can choose to be poor or you can choose to be rich.

 

[JRKH]

The question should be:

How much Gratitude should a Christian have? Money without gratitude isn’t wealth. It’s poverty.

Gratitude is like a magnet. When I’m grateful for the love in my life, I attract more of it. My relationships get deeper. My friendships become stronger. When I’m grateful for money, I attract more money. The right people come into my life. Doors open before me. Opportunities fall at my feet.

A very interesting perspective. Tell me - To whom are you greatful for money?

Peace
James

 

[sinnerdexter]

A very interesting perspective. Tell me - To whom are you greatful for money?

I’m grateful to God. I believe that wealth is God’s gift and we need to use it for His purpose.

 

[JRKH]

I’m grateful to God. I believe that wealth is God’s gift and we need to use it for His purpose.

GREAT ANSWER!!!



Peace
James

 

[o_mlly]

True, good point. Do you think that there was a pride issue here? The fact that he went away sad is interesting. Don’t know, but I’d like to hear opinions.

The young man, I think, rejected Christ’s gift of faith and immediately regretted his decision.

Bonhoeffer, in The Cost of Discipleship, emphasizes the necessity of faith as both incident and subsequent to Jesus’ call to discipleship. Citing the story of the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-30, Bonhoeffer notes that the man approaches Jesus addressing him as a “good master.” By calling Jesus “good master,” Bonhoeffer suggests the man, absent faith, is interested only in talking to a good rabbi about the academic problems of eternal life.

Matthew never has Jesus called Teacher, Rabbi or Master by the disciples, the afflicted, or those coming to him in faith. They call him Lord. Those who come to Jesus without faith—the scribes, Pharisees, or those who encounter Jesus but do not follow, like the rich young man—address him as a Teacher.

Jesus proceeds to shock the young man out of his complacency drawing him into quite a different conversation. Jesus challenges him to drop the academic question and obediently respond to the will of God just revealed to him. But doubt and reflection take the place of spontaneous obedience. The young rich man hears the call, but lacking faith does not obey.

Bonhoeffer believes Matthew teaches that only those who believe can obey, and only those who obey, believe. Obedience to the call of Jesus does not lie within our own power. Immediate and unconditional obedience requires accepting the gift of faith.

 

[JRKH]

The young man, I think, rejected Christ’s gift of faith and immediately regretted his decision.

Bonhoeffer, in The Cost of Discipleship, emphasizes the necessity of faith as both incident and subsequent to Jesus’ call to discipleship. Citing the story of the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-30, Bonhoeffer notes that the man approaches Jesus addressing him as a “good master.” By calling Jesus “good master,” Bonhoeffer suggests the man, absent faith, is interested only in talking to a good rabbi about the academic problems of eternal life.

Matthew never has Jesus called Teacher, Rabbi or Master by the disciples, the afflicted, or those coming to him in faith. They call him Lord. Those who come to Jesus without faith—the scribes, Pharisees, or those who encounter Jesus but do not follow, like the rich young man—address him as a Teacher.

Jesus proceeds to shock the young man out of his complacency drawing him into quite a different conversation. Jesus challenges him to drop the academic question and obediently respond to the will of God just revealed to him. But doubt and reflection take the place of spontaneous obedience. The young rich man hears the call, but lacking faith does not obey.

Bonhoeffer believes Matthew teaches that only those who believe can obey, and only those who obey, believe. Obedience to the call of Jesus does not lie within our own power. Immediate and unconditional obedience requires accepting the gift of faith.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.
It gives much to reflect upon in our own responses to the challenges of our beliefs.

Peace
James

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

How much is too much. I realize that we can’t declare some “sum” or dollar amount, but what constitutes too much money in ones possesion.
Here I am refering to individuals and not institutions, and not Churches. That would get into an entirely different discussion.

For individuals, How much money is too much? How much constitutes “laying up treasures on Earth? $50,000 - $100,000 per anum?
Jesus teaches in Matt 6:19-34 that we are not to store up riches on earth, not try to serve two masters and not worry about what we are to eat tomorrow etc.
In Matthew 19:21-24 is the illustration of the rich man who cannot give up his possesions to Follow Jesus and Jesus comment about the difficulty of the rich to get into heaven.

Jesus teaches us these things, but do we take them to heart. How much do we sacrifice for our Lord and His Church? We have all seen our parishes and our schools struggle with finances, while parishoners (myself included) sock away money for “a rainy day” or for vacation, or for Christmas presents.
We have to have a new DVR,
Or Johnny wants a video game station
We buy a car with all the bells and whistles instead of the base model

How much should wealth should any – individual Christian hold?

Peace
James

I think you answered your own question to perfection.

When you understand economics, you realize that if you are able to afford the bells and whistles car, you are helping provide jobs and money for others.

You could argue that a video game isn’t a necessity, but that, too, is an individual decision, and also provides jobs and income.

As long as a Christian lives within his means and gives to charity, no one can put a dollar amount on it.

 

[Glassman96]

It’s not so much as to how much one has, it’s a matter of whether it has become a golden idol in your heart. One thing that Jesus preached on is to not to hoard things. If we have faith and trust in God, he will provide for our needs (not our wants). It’s all about temperance (moderation). We can’t love God and at the same time love the things of the world. Either your heart is with the world or it is with God. Pray about stewardship to Jesus and he will guide you so that you don’t have to battle with guilt. Paul talks about this also.

 

[stinkcat_14]

When you understand economics, you realize that if you are able to afford the bells and whistles car, you are helping provide jobs and money for others.

While providing jobs for others is not a bad thing, we have to be careful not to mistake it for charity. If I buy a BMW I will be helping to provide jobs for a number of people. On the other hand if I use the same money to buy water pumps for people in Angola, then I will be doing two desirable things, providing jobs and bringing clean water to people who have none.

 

[nsper7]

The young man, I think, rejected Christ’s gift of faith and immediately regretted his decision.

Bonhoeffer, in The Cost of Discipleship, emphasizes the necessity of faith as both incident and subsequent to Jesus’ call to discipleship. Citing the story of the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-30, Bonhoeffer notes that the man approaches Jesus addressing him as a “good master.” By calling Jesus “good master,” Bonhoeffer suggests the man, absent faith, is interested only in talking to a good rabbi about the academic problems of eternal life.

Matthew never has Jesus called Teacher, Rabbi or Master by the disciples, the afflicted, or those coming to him in faith. They call him Lord. Those who come to Jesus without faith—the scribes, Pharisees, or those who encounter Jesus but do not follow, like the rich young man—address him as a Teacher.

Jesus proceeds to shock the young man out of his complacency drawing him into quite a different conversation. Jesus challenges him to drop the academic question and obediently respond to the will of God just revealed to him. But doubt and reflection take the place of spontaneous obedience. The young rich man hears the call, but lacking faith does not obey.

Bonhoeffer believes Matthew teaches that only those who believe can obey, and only those who obey, believe. Obedience to the call of Jesus does not lie within our own power. Immediate and unconditional obedience requires accepting the gift of faith.

Remember that Bonhoeffer was NOT Catholic, but Lutheran, and his views would likely have been affected the times he lived in (he died in a Nazi concentration camp and lived under the thumb of the Nazis and many German Protestantism was divided: some got sucked into Nazi ideology, while others, like Bonhoeffer, stood against Nazism). Obviously, his self-sacrifice can be commended, but we must remember that, no matter how committed he was to his faith, he was not a Catholic theologian and thus his words must always be read through the glasses of Catholic doctrine and theology.

I disagree with this only to the point where you say that the rich young man, “thought he had done his requirements and didn’t need to do anything more”. If the Rich young man had thought this, he would not have asked Jesus,
"The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”(Mt 19:20
The young man obviously had an intuitive sense from Jesus teachings that there was something more to it than simply “Keeping the Law”

Again, what does the Church say?

 

[When_it_comes]

Just living in America makes you obscenely rich compared to most. Following that logic, anyone who reads this is going to hell.

If God is omniscient then he knows how to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
If God is omnipotent then he is able to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
If God is benevolent then he wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
But if God knows how to, is able to and wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering, then why does he not do so?

“God is incomprehensible” you respond.

Theists have often been content to say that we are unable to comprehend God, that his being transcends our mundane experiences and that our concepts, which are derived from such experiences, cannot be used to describe him. If true, then this might be thought to count in favor of agnosticism; if we cannot comprehend God, then how can we reason with any confidence concerning his existence?

Of course, I can’t expect this to make sense to any one here. The only way you could maintain such a blind faith as I see here is if you rejected anything that offended you or challenged your knowledge. At least when I am censored, you must acknowledge the truth of this last paragraph.

 

[JRKH]

Remember that Bonhoeffer was NOT Catholic, but Lutheran, and his views would likely have been affected the times he lived in (he died in a Nazi concentration camp and lived under the thumb of the Nazis and many German Protestantism was divided: some got sucked into Nazi ideology, while others, like Bonhoeffer, stood against Nazism). Obviously, his self-sacrifice can be commended, but we must remember that, no matter how committed he was to his faith, he was not a Catholic theologian and thus his words must always be read through the glasses of Catholic doctrine and theology.

Agreed. And the same thing can be said for many catholic writers as well. Just because something is said by a catholic author does not automatically mean is in line with Catholic Doctrinal teaching.

Again, what does the Church say?

This is good advise, but I think Church teaching can only take us so far. By that I mean The Church can define terms and give us good insights into the realities of what Christ wishes to teach us, but The Church cannot look into each heart and determine God’s plan for that heart.
In other words we should not simply look at Church teaching and let it go at that - like robots. Too many look at church teaching and think that if something isn’t listed as “evil”, that it is automatically “good”. Wealth is a good example.
People here have said that it is “not sinful” to be wealthy. If something is not declared “sinful” by Church teaching does that automatically make it good and pleasing to God?
They have also declared the Church’s teaching on “how much” one “has to give” - in other words a minimalistic approach. Yet did Christ take a minimalistic approach in his mission and desire to redeem us? Did Christ in His minstry teach minimalistic obedience to some set of rules?
The young rich man in had kept the minimum rules and Christ commended him for it and then challenged him to do more in order that he might be perfected.

Sorry to go on so. There have been many good and sincere posts on this thread for which I am greatful. I hope it has been as benefical to others has it has been to me.

Peace
James

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

While providing jobs for others is not a bad thing, we have to be careful not to mistake it for charity. If I buy a BMW I will be helping to provide jobs for a number of people. On the other hand if I use the same money to buy water pumps for people in Angola, then I will be doing two desirable things, providing jobs and bringing clean water to people who have none.

An admirable approach indeed, but not everyone has to be from the same mold.

 

[JRKH]

An admirable approach indeed, but not everyone has to be from the same mold.

Perhaps not “from” the same mold, but certainly we should be striving to be “fitted into” the same mold which is the image of Christ Himself.

I wonder if anyone thinks that God, having given someone the gift for “making money”, wishes for that person to spend that money on 50 inch plasma TV, and $40,000 Speedboats etc.

I know I’m being over the top here. I’m just trying to make the point that while the ability to “aquire” money can easily be a God given gift, how we choose to use that money is another matter.

To use stinkat’s example, One will provide the same benefit (jobs) to people by a personal purchase as they will by a charitable purchase. In addition one would provide jobs to people by purchasing a Chevy just as much as by buying a Mercedes.

Peace
James

 

[nsper7]

This is good advise, but I think Church teaching can only take us so far. By that I mean The Church can define terms and give us good insights into the realities of what Christ wishes to teach us, but The Church cannot look into each heart and determine God’s plan for that heart.
In other words we should not simply look at Church teaching and let it go at that - like robots. Too many look at church teaching and think that if something isn’t listed as “evil”, that it is automatically “good”. Wealth is a good example.
People here have said that it is “not sinful” to be wealthy. If something is not declared “sinful” by Church teaching does that automatically make it good and pleasing to God?
They have also declared the Church’s teaching on “how much” one “has to give” - in other words a minimalistic approach. Yet did Christ take a minimalistic approach in his mission and desire to redeem us? Did Christ in His minstry teach minimalistic obedience to some set of rules?
The young rich man in had kept the minimum rules and Christ commended him for it and then challenged him to do more in order that he might be perfected.

But what is wrong with someone taking a more minimalistic approach? If it ain’t a sin…well, it ain’t a sin.

 

[JRKH]

But what is wrong with someone taking a more minimalistic approach? If it ain’t a sin…well, it ain’t a sin.

The Pharasees, The Scribes, The Lawyers all felt the same way.
“Obey The Law”.
Do what’s “Required”.

but if you read the Gospels I think you’ll find that Jesus teaches a different approach.

Mt 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH **ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND**.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Does this sound like a “minimalistic” approach?

Add to that:

“Sell all you have come back and follow me.” (Mt 19:21)
“No greater Love has any man than to lay down His life for His friends…”(Jn 15:13)
"and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.(Mt 5:41)
"Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. (Mt 5:42)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Mt 5:48)
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.(Mt 7:2)

Father Corapi once said in one of his talks. If you aim for Heaven (perfection) and miss - there is Purgatory… If you aim for Purgatory (minimalism) and miss there’s no other place to stop. It’s a long fall into…"

I guess that is what I see as being wrong with, “taking a more minimalistic approach”. We are to be seeking Perfection in God, not trying to just make it in the door by, “the skin of your teeth” as my mother use to say.

peace
James

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Perhaps not “from” the same mold, but certainly we should be striving to be “fitted into” the same mold which is the image of Christ Himself.

I wonder if anyone thinks that God, having given someone the gift for “making money”, wishes for that person to spend that money on 50 inch plasma TV, and $40,000 Speedboats etc.

I know I’m being over the top here. I’m just trying to make the point that while the ability to “aquire” money can easily be a God given gift, how we choose to use that money is another matter.

To use stinkat’s example, One will provide the same benefit (jobs) to people by a personal purchase as they will by a charitable purchase. In addition one would provide jobs to people by purchasing a Chevy just as much as by buying a Mercedes.

Peace
James

You could be right. But there is nothing inherently immoral about buying a Mercedes, and I hesitate to tell anyone how to spend his money. I may not approve of certain things; you may not approve of different certain things. It’s not our portion to tell someone else what to do in matters that are morally neutral.

We also have to be careful not to stray into class envy, which is against Church teachings.

 

[JRKH]

You could be right. But there is nothing inherently immoral about buying a Mercedes, and I hesitate to tell anyone how to spend his money. I may not approve of certain things; you may not approve of different certain things. It’s not our portion to tell someone else what to do in matters that are morally neutral.

We also have to be careful not to stray into class envy, which is against Church teachings.

Peace
James

 

[nsper7]

The Pharasees, The Scribes, The Lawyers all felt the same way.
“Obey The Law”.
Do what’s “Required”.

but if you read the Gospels I think you’ll find that Jesus teaches a different approach.

Mt 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH **ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND**.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Does this sound like a “minimalistic” approach?

Add to that:

“Sell all you have come back and follow me.” (Mt 19:21)
“No greater Love has any man than to lay down His life for His friends…”(Jn 15:13)
"and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.(Mt 5:41)
"Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. (Mt 5:42)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Mt 5:48)
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.(Mt 7:2)

Father Corapi once said in one of his talks. If you aim for Heaven (perfection) and miss - there is Purgatory… If you aim for Purgatory (minimalism) and miss there’s no other place to stop. It’s a long fall into…"

I guess that is what I see as being wrong with, “taking a more minimalistic approach”. We are to be seeking Perfection in God, not trying to just make it in the door by, “the skin of your teeth” as my mother use to say.

peace
James

But remember that Purgatory implies sin, albeit venial. My understanding is that failure to follow the evangelical counsels is NOT sinful, either venial or mortal.

Also, the Pharisees/Scribes seem to get into trouble for:

A) Hypocrisy
B) Adding to the Law (i.e. “binding heavy burdens on others”)
C) Using subterfuge/dishonesty to try get away with things (i.e. consecrating things to God in order to get around having to provide for their families…now, you could possibly compare that to my living will idea, but there is not subterfuge there because the property really does belong to the other person just with stipulations and obviously my idea was meant to be a tad facetious)

Remember that it is the Church that tells us how Christ’s two Commandments are to be practically lived out.