How much (or little!) love is 'enough' for salvation?

[Gorgias]

truthseekerjay:

I’m just trying to show that if subjectivity does play a part, then confessions may not even be necessary.

If by “subjectivity”, you mean “subjectively deciding what’s sin and what’s not”, then you’ve hit on the heart of the “Fall of Adam” story in Genesis 3.

Jay,

I meant to add this, but failed to get back to the thread in time to edit my post:

There is an element of ‘subjectivity’ in the discussion of mortal sin, but it’s not the subjectivity of “I get to decide for myself what’s sinful”. The gravity of sin is an objective matter – it either is or isn’t sinful, and the degree of the sin is either venial or grave. These are objective considerations.

However, the subjective element comes into play in the notion of the extent to which we are held culpable for sin. If one commits a grave sin, but does not do so “in full knowledge and with deliberate consent,” then he does not commit mortal sin. This is a subjective consideration: another person, committing the same act, might do so with knowledge and consent, and thereby, fall into mortal sin. In this way, culpability is considered subjectively, not objectively.

That doesn’t mean that a person gets to decide, based on his personal rationalization, whether his sin is mortal or not, of course… just that each instance must be discerned in order to understand properly what the culpability might be.

Hope this helps…

 

[steve_b]

Let me just give everyone some background on what Gorgias and I have been discussing. I asked if I was receiving absolution and forgiveness when I confessed simply due to my fear of punishment and the answer was yes.

If we use as an example the “Act of Contrition” prayer after confession,

your comment above in blue would correspond to the part of the following prayer in blue.

“O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended You, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend You, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of your grace, to confess my sins, do penance , and amend my life AMEN.”

The part of the prayer in brown, raises the bar. The reason is not fear based but love based, and therefore leading to perfect contrition. .

Next you make a promise

It’s really a short but extremely powerful prayer
t:

I explained to Gorgias that I didn’t have any love for Jesus during my early twenties. He was like a judge for a speeding ticket.

Well He will judge the living and the dead. That can’t be sugarcoated. But if there was ever a judge in all of creation, one wants to be judged by, it’s Jesus. His love and fairness and yes justice as well, is incomparable.
t:

Then I asked if I could still receive absolution/forgiveness during confession if I remained loveless (at no fault of my own) for the rest of my life. The priests didn’t detect my lack of love for years, so they didn’t try to correct it. As for me, I wasn’t trying to lack love on purpose. I just viewed Jesus similar to other authoritative figures in my lives. Do what they say until you get what you want and then do whatever you want after. Apparently, I could still receive absolution/forgiveness despite my lack of growth in love.

God doesn’t force one into heaven anymore than He forces one into hell. And He doesn’t forgive one who isn’t sorry. If one is thinking to themselves, I’m really not sorry for what I just confessed, Absolution doesn’t override ones free will.
t:

At this point, since there was no love for Jesus, what stood out for me was LUCK and my ability to FOLLOW RULES/check things off a list.

I would suggest it was grace, NOT luck. Inspite of your attitude, you were given pure gift from God. A testament to His love for you.
t:

The only thing that I felt distinguished me from a good rule following Buddhist or Muslim wast that I was lucky to be exposed to Roman Catholicism first.

Not Luck…GRACE!!!
t:

I pointed out that even my baptism was just another example of LUCK and good RULE FOLLOWING/checking things of a list.

NOT luck but GRACE
t:

My parents, just like atheist or even Satan worshipping parents, will do anything for my safety (my dad has told me that he would break rules, including those of the RC church, to protect my family). Since they were first exposed to Roman Catholicism, they had me baptized, but they would have done whatever ritual they were exposed to first to ensure my safety. This act was not personal. It was all business.

Sound like they were baptised, and they saw that you were baptised. That’s GRACE my friend. It’s NOT business, NOT luck, or any other secular reasoning.
t:

There really was NO DIFFERENCE between my parents and atheist parents except that my parents LUCKILY stumbled on Roman Catholicism first.

You discount the supernatural realities of a sacrament. If your parents were initiated to Catholicism, it was probably by their parents. It’s GRACE my friend, NOT luck.
t:

Since love isn’t present, doesn’t this imply that luck and rule following/checking things off a list is more important?

Love IS present. Right now it apparantly seems it’s going only in one direction. From God to you.

Ultimately that needs to change. It needs to be reciprocal.

837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

 

[truthseekerjay]

Really? It happens all the time: “I love God… but I really love my girlfriend, so it’s not really sinful if I’m going to have sex with her.” Or, “I love God, so it’s not really a sin to miss Mass on Sunday (after all, I have tickets to the Steelers game; I still love God, though, and He understands!)” After all, the Jews “set their minds on following God’s rules”, didn’t they? Then why did they need the Ten Commandments? If we didn’t need to be told “don’t do this,” then God wouldn’t have told us. So, yeah… we may love God – but we still fall short and sin (sometimes mortally).

I hate to say it, but I feel that people will OFTENTIMES not think and unintentionally deceive themselves. I will actually go back to this idea later as I respond to your other statement.

But, your definition of situation B seems problematic, too. “God pretty much decides everything” doesn’t imply “all sin is grave”! Now, I’d agree that all sin offends God; but, as I pointed out using Scripture, not all sin is of the same level of seriousness! Do you agree? Or do you disagree with 1 John?

I disagree with the RC interpretation of 1 John, which leads to the concepts of venial and mortal sins. To be honest with you, I don’t really know what the verse truly means. However, I am starting to think that perhaps “deadly” doesn’t necessarily equate with “grave.” I’m starting to think that deadly refers more to a lack of repentance. For example, stealing paperclips from work may not be seen as grave. However, if one continues to do this especially after someone else points out that it’s stealing, then this could become a deadly sin. You probably don’t agree with what I just said, but this isn’t my concern at this point, so for the sake of argument, I’m going to assume that the concepts of mortal and venial sins are true.

What I really want to know is if you can you tell which of your sins are mortal and which are venial. I know a lot of people who would say that stealing a paper clip from work is venial. Is it really venial though? Perhaps these people just aren’t thinking JUST LIKE the person in your example sleeping with his girlfriend.

Let me ask you a couple personal questions. If you don’t feel comfortable answering them, just use some analogy to respond.

What was the longest time period that you went without confessing?
Why didn’t you confess (ie did you feel that all your sins during that period were venial)?
If one of those sins committed during that “period of nonconfession” happened to actually be mortal and you died, what would have happened to you?
Did you NOT fear that any of your sins were possibly mortal?

 

[Googler]

… Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done ‘on earth as it is in heaven.’
What do the angles and saints do in heaven besides share in His own perfect happiness and forever behold the Trinity?
God’s will, of course.
In the ‘Our Father’, we first worship and adore Him then consecrate ourselves to Him before our petitions for holiness.
It is said that our holiness leads to our supernatural destiny in heaven.
But seeking first to do God’s will leads to holiness.
Sanctifying grace is the divine grace that makes us holy, children of God and heirs of heaven, unless it is lost by mortal sin. And it can be restored only by His mercy.
Christ promised to give us grace through the sacraments, through prayers, and by resisting the pleasures of this world and pursue instead our duties as Catholics to practice virtue.
We can be confident of our salvation, justly hope for the grace of final perseverance and of God’s reward for the good works we have done with His grace in union with Jesus.
Once our soul leaves the body for our particular judgement, to have the right to enter the Kingdom we must possess sanctifying grace, the virtues of faith, hope and charity, and be entirely free from temporal punishment due to sin or we will need to be cleansed of this debt in purgatory.

 

[Gorgias]

I disagree with the RC interpretation of 1 John, which leads to the concepts of venial and mortal sins. To be honest with you, I don’t really know what the verse truly means.

That’s an interesting combination of statements! “I disagree with the Catholic interpretation” and “I don’t have an interpretation”, in juxtaposition, really just mean “I want to disagree with the Catholic Church”…!

However, I am starting to think that perhaps “deadly” doesn’t necessarily equate with “grave.”

Remember that ‘grave matter’ (or ‘grave sin’) is a term used to explain a concept (that of ‘serious sin’). So, it’s not that ‘deadly’ equates with ‘grave’; it’s just that ‘grave sin’ is the term that was defined to explain what ‘deadly sin’ means.

I’m starting to think that deadly refers more to a lack of repentance.

That’s not what John says, though. “All wrongdoing is sin; yet, there is sin that is deadly.” He is distinctly speaking of two categories: sin that is deadly (ἁμαρτία πρὸς θάνατον – “sin unto death”) and sin that is not deadly (ἁμαρτία μὴ πρὸς θάνατον – “sin not unto death”).

If this meant “unrepented sin” and “repented sin”, then there would be two problems: first, John would be saying that unrepented sinners are forgiven, without a change of heart. (That contradicts everything that the Scriptures say about sin – it is our contrition that leads the way to forgiveness!) Second, if “sin not unto death” really means “repented sin”, then John is being inconsistent: throughout 1 John, he mentions that those who love God are not held guilty of sin; yet, here, your interpretation would lead us to conclude that those who have repented are still in need of the prayers of Christians in order to receive forgiveness. No, a ‘repented/unrepented’ distinction here either leads us to believe that John was teaching heresy or that John was was teaching mutually exclusive doctrines in the epistle.

What I really want to know is if you can you tell which of your sins are mortal and which are venial.

When people ask me this, my response is always “go to confession and confess your sins. At that point, it no longer matters whether your sins were mortal or venial – all of them will have been absolved!” (But yes, although it can be difficult, there’s certainly the ability to point at some sins and say “grave!”. The question of mortal sin can only be answered by the sinner and by God, since only they know if the person had “full knowledge and deliberate consent.”)

What was the longest time period that you went without confessing?

Years. (In my twenties, I went through a period in which I’d stepped away from the practice of the faith.)

Why didn’t you confess (ie did you feel that all your sins during that period were venial)?

No, it had nothing to do with a ‘feeling’. Instead, I going through a period in which my desire to practice the faith was waning.

If one of those sins committed during that “period of nonconfession” happened to actually be mortal and you died, what would have happened to you?

I would have had to hope on God’s mercy, but, according to the teaching of the Church, a person who dies in a state of mortal sin does not attain to heaven. So, as scary as it sounds, yeah – I was flirting with being condemned to hell! (P.S., it’s not a matter of ‘feeling’ that a sin is venial, either. I wasn’t going to Mass on Sundays, and it’s grave matter to skip Mass. So, in a purely objective way, I know that I was in a state of mortal sin!)

Did you NOT fear that any of your sins were possibly mortal?

No, that wasn’t it. Then again, in our youth, we tend to think we’re bulletproof – or, at least, we don’t think about our mortality at all. So, it’s not a rejection, per se, but a generalized lack of fear, I think; and this is not uncommon among youth. (Ask a twenty-year-old to reflect on his death; I think I can pretty well guarantee you that they look at you like you have two heads… )

 

[truthseekerjay]

Gorgias, I actually have more personal questions. Again, you can refuse to answer them.

When was the last time you went to confession?
Do you feel you need to go to confession today?

I’ll eventually tie this back to the love vs. rule following that we’ve been talking about, but just bear with me for now.

 

[truthseekerjay]

When people ask me this, my response is always “go to confession and confess your sins. At that point, it no longer matters whether your sins were mortal or venial – all of them will have been absolved!”

Yes, but during the period in between confessions, isn’t the person at risk of dying in mortal sin?

 

[clem456]

Yes, but during the period in between confessions, isn’t the person at risk of dying in mortal sin?

Maybe.
Did you have the intention to go to confession before death? Were you contrite?
Our eternity does not hinge on a car wreck it hinges on a relationship with a person.

 

[Gorgias]

When was the last time you went to confession?

I try to go monthly.

Do you feel you need to go to confession today?

Let’s break down what you’re asking. Are you asking whether I feel I’m in a state of mortal sin at the moment? (No, I don’t.) Are you asking whether I feel the need to receive the sacramental graces that reconciliation brings? (We all need them, on a regular basis; but, if the question is whether I feel the pressing need today, then, no.)

Here’s the thing: the Church teaches that mortal sin is absolved only through sacramental reconciliation, but that venial sin is absolved through prayer, participation in the Mass, reception of the Eucharist, etc. So, having been to daily Mass, a Catholic who is not in the state of mortal sin isn’t in a position where he must get off to confession – his (venial) sins are already absolved!

I’ll eventually tie this back to the love vs. rule following that we’ve been talking about, but just bear with me for now.

truthseekerjay:

Gorgias:

When people ask me this, my response is always “go to confession and confess your sins. At that point, it no longer matters whether your sins were mortal or venial – all of them will have been absolved!”

Yes, but during the period in between confessions, isn’t the person at risk of dying in mortal sin?

If he’s in a state of mortal sin, yes. But, it’s not the case that everyone is in the state of mortal sin, right? That is, for (many? most?) folks, when they are “between confessions,” they’re not in mortal sin. I think that’s what you’re getting at. Is there something I’m missing here?

 

[clem456]

catholic.com/quickquestions/if-my-husband-dies-before-he-is-able-to-confess-and-receive-absolution-will-god-forgi

 

[dfjdyujjdf]

So, here’s the question: inasmuch as none of us can love God as perfectly as He loves us, just how much, exactly, do we need to love God in order to be saved?

 

[clem456]

There is no good answer to the question of quantity.

If love is to will the good of another, how do you measure that “good will”? God’s will is infinitely good, so if we can unite our will to God’s, our inadequacy is made whole.

 

[JRKH]

See Mt 22:36-40. How much love exactly is all our heart mind and strength. It may not be perfect…but that is what is asked of us.

Peace
James

 

[clem456]

See Mt 22:36-40. How much love exactly is all our heart mind and strength. It may not be perfect…but that is what is asked of us.

Peace
James

Yes and the miraculous thing is, when you think you might have given all, you find that more is given to you, to give back.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Let’s break down what you’re asking. Are you asking whether I feel I’m in a state of mortal sin at the moment? (No, I don’t.)

Are you sure about that?

Do you remember how I told you that I honestly desire to do the will of God? As far as not going to confession, I told you that I’m currently confused about what God actually desires. Personally, I think it’s a valid feeling considering all the people that claim to know the Bible and have the truth (ie Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, RCs, Protestants). If a Mormon is expected to search for the truth, why not a RC? Just to clarify, it’s not so much that I don’t want to go to a RC confession, I just don’t know if that’s what God really wants and I also fear that it may actually be something that He DOESN’T want (I’m not here to argue about this at the moment though).

Anyway, there have been people who say that I’m deceiving myself and that I’ve left the truth that I SUPPOSEDLY know. As I look back, there wasn’t some sort of comfort or sin that I was trying to justify by leaving the RC Church. If anything, it was a hard transition out of the RC Church because of all the worldly comforts I had there (I’m not trying to generalize for everyone, just speaking for myself). However, people still think that I’m deceiving myself.

How do YOU know that you aren’t deceiving yourself with regards to committing a mortal sin? Why does it seem (to me anyway) as if you don’t feel the need to go to confession sooner? Will God just base His decision off of YOUR feeling of being in mortal sin or venial sin? To be honest with you, since I started to actually have feelings of love for God, I personally feel that I haven’t committed any mortal sins either, so even if I felt that RC confessions are true, I wouldn’t have a need to go. If people say that I’m deceiving myself, isn’t possible that YOU’RE also deceiving yourself?

 

[Gorgias]

Jay,

Lots to deal with here… even if I don’t go to the things you aren’t ‘arguing about at the moment’!

First, let’s look at your question about one’s ‘feeling’ about being in a state of mortal sin. (Actually, it’s not a ‘feeling’, but a rational assessment.) Moreover, this question you ask leads into the question about the frequency of going to confession. (That leads to a couple of issues, one of which – the ways in which venial sin is absolved – I’ve already addressed.) Finally, you utilize this line of thought to address the question of ‘uncertainty’. Lots to talk about, indeed!

It’s not a question of a ‘feeling’ about mortal sin – at least, not always. A judgment about mortal sin – for a person who is well-catechized and whose conscience is well-formed – is a rational judgment, and not just the operation of ‘feeling’, wouldn’t you agree? This acts as a continuum, I would assert – the less well-catechized or less well-formed a conscience a person has, the more likely he might be mistaken; but this isn’t a matter of mere ‘feeling’, right? Maybe this is what you’re getting at – are you asking whether I might be mistaken?

To a certain extent (and not in an absolute sense), a mistake about mortal sin speaks to a lack of full knowledge or deliberate intent. Therefore, for some cases, an error in judgment precludes mortal sin (although it may lead to an assessment of unrepented venial sin, which is something that is serious in itself!). So, since you’re asking about me personally: yeah, I’m pretty sure about that.

Do you remember how I told you that I honestly desire to do the will of God? As far as not going to confession, I told you that I’m currently confused about what God actually desires. … Just to clarify, it’s not so much that I don’t want to go to a RC confession, I just don’t know if that’s what God really wants and I also fear that it may actually be something that He DOESN’T want (I’m not here to argue about this at the moment though).

Well, as a Catholic, I believe that Jesus gave the assurance that the Church wouldn’t be able to be in error about matters of faith and morals. So, if the Church teaches that sacramental confession is something that God wants us to encounter, at a minimum of once a year, then I have no doubt that this is something that God wants – or, at the very least, in the spirit of Mt 16:18, that what the Church has bound on earth, Jesus holds bound in heaven! (Alternately, what you’re asserting is that you, individually, hold wisdom that’s greater than the wisdom of the Church… )

Personally, I think it’s a valid feeling considering all the people that claim to know the Bible and have the truth (ie Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, RCs, Protestants).

I’m not certain of what you’re asserting. Are you saying that, since some people search and are mistaken, all who search are may be mistaken? That doesn’t make sense. Moreso in the case of the Catholic Church, which is the Church Jesus founded.

If a Mormon is expected to search for the truth, why not a RC?

Fair enough. Yet, the fullness of the truth is found in the Catholic Church. Where’s the ‘search’, then?

Anyway, there have been people who say that I’m deceiving myself and that I’ve left the truth that I SUPPOSEDLY know.

I can’t argue for their assertion. (Personally, I think that assertion doesn’t hold: you’ve left a truth that you never truly fully known or understood.)

How do YOU know that you aren’t deceiving yourself with regards to committing a mortal sin?

Which are you asserting: that I’m making an error of fact or I have a deficiency of conscience?

Why does it seem (to me anyway) as if you don’t feel the need to go to confession sooner?

Because if I’m in a state of venial sin, then participation in Mass and reception of Eucharist absolves from venial sin.

To be honest with you, since I started to actually have feelings of love for God, I personally feel that I haven’t committed any mortal sins either

The Catholic Church requires attendance at Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. I’m assuming that you know that. I’m also pretty sure you haven’t met that obligation. So, unless you’re saying that you know better than the Church – than the apostles who were given authority by Christ himself and by their successors – then your ‘feeling’ is mistaken.

, so even if I felt that RC confessions are true, I wouldn’t have a need to go.

The Church also requires reception of Eucharist at least once a year, and at a minimum, an annual confession. So yeah – if Catholic confessions are ‘true’, you need to go.

isn’t possible that YOU’RE also deceiving yourself?

On what basis? That I’m deficient in my catechesis? I don’t rely on my own feelings for that, but on the teachings of the Church Christ founded. Or on the basis of a poorly-formed conscience? Either way, how would you base your assertion that I might be in denial?

 

[JRKH]

Gorgias,
Excellent replies below…. I believe Jay is very serious in his search and your responses are on point.
If I might add my two cents…

Jay,
Lots to deal with here… even if I don’t go to the things you aren’t ‘arguing about at the moment’!

Indeed

It’s not a question of a ‘feeling’ about mortal sin – at least, not always. A judgment about mortal sin – for a person who is well-catechized and whose conscience is well-formed – is a rational judgment, and not just the operation of ‘feeling’, wouldn’t you agree? This acts as a continuum, I would assert – the less well-catechized or less well-formed a conscience a person has, the more likely he might be mistaken; but this isn’t a matter of mere ‘feeling’, right? Maybe this is what you’re getting at – are you asking whether I might be mistaken?

Excellent. However, I would say that we cannot entirely divorce “feelings” from the equation because when our conscience is convicting us of something (but we haven’t quite realized it yet) it can manifest as a “feeling” of unease.
Also - let us remember that the term “feeling”, as commonly used today, can have a rather wide meaning. So someone using the term “feels like” might still have done a goodly amount of rationally considering.
Just a thought.

To a certain extent (and not in an absolute sense), a mistake about mortal sin speaks to a lack of full knowledge or deliberate intent. Therefore, for some cases, an error in judgment precludes mortal sin (although it may lead to an assessment of unrepented venial sin, which is something that is serious in itself!).

And this is certainly an area where confession can be useful. If one is unsure, and takes it to confession, a good priest can ask some very pointed questions, offer some insight, or suggest some reading that will help.

Well, as a Catholic, I believe that Jesus gave the assurance that the Church wouldn’t be able to be in error about matters of faith and morals. So, if the Church teaches that sacramental confession is something that God wants us to encounter, at a minimum of once a year, then I have no doubt that this is something that God wants – or, at the very least, in the spirit of Mt 16:18, that what the Church has bound on earth, Jesus holds bound in heaven! (Alternately, what you’re asserting is that you, individually, hold wisdom that’s greater than the wisdom of the Church… )

Amen - This is something that we need to keep in mind. If we are to decide that a certain thing is something God does NOT desire, we need to do so within the bounds of Church teaching.
This still provides a great deal of leeway in many things…but keeps us from flying off in all directions.

I’m not certain of what you’re asserting. Are you saying that, since some people search and are mistaken, all who search are may be mistaken? That doesn’t make sense. More so in the case of the Catholic Church, which is the Church Jesus founded.

Fair enough. Yet, the fullness of the truth is found in the Catholic Church. Where’s the ‘search’, then?

This is more of a side comment - but within the Catholic Church there is a HUGE amount to “search” and explore. I am still learning things and discovering things. Both about the Church and about myself.

I can’t argue for their assertion. (Personally, I think that assertion doesn’t hold: you’ve left a truth that you never truly fully known or understood.)

Bingo - - and I applaud Jay’s efforts to understand.

Which are you asserting: that I’m making an error of fact or I have a deficiency of conscience?

An excellent question.

The Catholic Church requires attendance at Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. I’m assuming that you know that. I’m also pretty sure you haven’t met that obligation. So, unless you’re saying that you know better than the Church – than the apostles who were given authority by Christ himself and by their successors – then your ‘feeling’ is mistaken.
The Church also requires reception of Eucharist at least once a year, and at a minimum, an annual confession. So yeah – if Catholic confessions are ‘true’, you need to go.

Again - this raises the question of authority, something that Jay really needs to address moving forward. The answers to many of his questions on confession rest within this larger question of Church authority and teaching.
Not trying to derail the thread, but rather to reinforce your point here.

Peace
James

 

[truthseekerjay]

Gorgias, maybe we should go back a bit. I feel that if I respond to your current statements that we would end up in more tangents, so let’s go back to my original confusion.

In post #62, I asked the following question:
What I really want to know is if you can you tell which of your sins are mortal and which are venial.

You responded:
When people ask me this, my response is always “go to confession and confess your sins. At that point, it no longer matters whether your sins were mortal or venial – all of them will have been absolved!” (But yes, although it can be difficult, there’s certainly the ability to point at some sins and say “grave!”. The question of mortal sin can only be answered by the sinner and by God, since only they know if the person had “full knowledge and deliberate consent.”)

FOR ME, your answer hints at uncertainty in knowing whether one has committed a mortal or venial sin. However, in your most recent post, it SEEMS to me as if you’re pretty sure that you haven’t committed any mortal sins. Once again, can you tell which of your sins are mortal and which are venial? Is there certainty or uncertainty?

 

[Gorgias]

In post #62, I asked the following question:
What I really want to know is if you can you tell which of your sins are mortal and which are venial.

You responded:
When people ask me this, my response is always “go to confession and confess your sins. At that point, it no longer matters whether your sins were mortal or venial – all of them will have been absolved!” (But yes, although it can be difficult, there’s certainly the ability to point at some sins and say “grave!”. The question of mortal sin can only be answered by the sinner and by God, since only they know if the person had “full knowledge and deliberate consent.”)

FOR ME, your answer hints at uncertainty in knowing whether one has committed a mortal or venial sin. However, in your most recent post, it SEEMS to me as if you’re pretty sure that you haven’t committed any mortal sins. Once again, can you tell which of your sins are mortal and which are venial? Is there certainty or uncertainty?

Recently, on Facebook, I read a post by a mom who was reviewing her daughter’s math quiz. One question asked, “John walks 3 miles a day. If he does so for 26 weeks, how many miles has he walked?” Her daughter answered ‘546’ and it was marked as incorrect. She wrote that she worked out the problem – once, twice, a third time – and although she kept getting 546, she was uncertain whether she was correct (after all, the teacher had marked the answer as wrong).

In any endeavor, there is the possibility of analyzing incorrectly and coming up with the wrong answer. But, our confidence level in the answer we reach is based on a number of factors; one of the most important of these is our level of mastery and understanding of the subject matter at hand.

Am I certain that I’m not in a state of mortal sin? That’s a question that has a somewhat different cast than the question of whether 3726 is 546. After all, mortal sin requires full knowledge and deliberate intent; so yeah, I’m pretty certain. Think about it: if I’m well catechized, and have a decent conscience, then how can I both commit mortal sin and not know it?

I recognize that this answer holds only to varying degrees with others: some may understand their faith better than I do, and their answers might be more likely correct than mine; others may understand the faith with less accuracy, and this will have the appropriate negative effect on accuracy of their answers.

(Now, there is a kernel of truth to your challenge: what’s the chance that, knowing the faith, I am nevertheless in denial about my personal state of holiness? That, my friend, is why I need to go to confession on a regular basis. In case I’m wrong, I go to confession and receive absolution. In case I’m wrong, I have a priest confessor who will tell me, “Umm… Gorgias, you know that’s pretty serious, don’t you?” I don’t have to spent my time in a high state of anxiety, since I have the counsel of good priests and the grace of God’s sacramental absolution as my safety net.)

There’s a desire among some Catholics to have a sort of “scorecard of sins” which will not only identify something as sinful, but also, give a warning about what’s ‘mortal’ and what’s ‘venial’. Here’s the thing, though: every mortal sin can be considered venial given a particular set of circumstances; every venial sin can lead to a corresponding mortal sin. There’s no single ‘reference guide’ for us to look at. (Interestingly, in the Middle Ages, there were such books – and, if memory serves, there were some in the first half of the 20th century, too – but these were meant as guides for confessors… not so much to identify mortal sins, as it were, but to identify appropriate penances for these sins.)

So, it seems to me that it’s always a judgment call. I’m pretty confident in my catechesis and faith formation, such that I know when I’ve sinned and I know a serious, intentional sin from one that is not. Do all have a high degree of certainty? Can I be certain I haven’t made a mistake? No, of course not. The only alternative, of course, is scrupulosity, which might drive us to the confessional each and every minute of each and every day. Some people suffer from this kind of disorder. They deserve our prayer and our support, because this is a heavy burden under which they suffer.

 

[truthseekerjay]

So, it seems to me that it’s always a judgment call. I’m pretty confident in my catechesis and faith formation, such that I know when I’ve sinned and I know a serious, intentional sin from one that is not. Do all have a high degree of certainty? Can I be certain I haven’t made a mistake? No, of course not. The only alternative, of course, is scrupulosity, which might drive us to the confessional each and every minute of each and every day. Some people suffer from this kind of disorder. They deserve our prayer and our support, because this is a heavy burden under which they suffer.

Scrupulous or not, there’s a valid reason for worrying about whether EVERY sin is mortal or venial. It seems as if the RC Church teaches that if any of these sins were mortal and you died before you’re able to go to confession, then you would end up in ETERNAL punishment. It’s like if you lived in West Africa right now and you had a drug A (confession to a priest) that cured BOTH ebola (mortal sin) and the common cold (venial sin) as opposed to drug B (prayers, mass participation, etc.) that only cured the common cold. Would it really be scrupulous if you felt the need to take drug A EVERY time you had a fever (at least for this time of outbreak)?

I personally feel that God doesn’t want us to be worrying so much, but it’s YOUR church’s system that produces this. This is why I started questioning whether or not the RC system of confession was what God intended when He told us to confess to one another.