How Much Time Should She Serve?

[Nepenthe]

I haven’t accused anyone of being anything. Nor have I used insulting terms to refer to you, although you certainly don’t seem hesitant with the badmouthing.

I am asking you, again…are men responsible for the children they sire? Are they responsible for the well-being of the women they impregnate? Yes or no will suffice; they’re easy questions.

And no, rpp, I am neither inexperienced nor poorly informed. If you really think that there are women who think ‘oh, it’s a slow weekend, let’s go get abortions and pedicures’ you are very mistaken.

 

[rpp]

I haven’t accused anyone of being anything. Nor have I used insulting terms to refer to you, although you certainly don’t seem hesitant with the badmouthing.

I am asking you, again…are men responsible for the children they sire? Are they responsible for the well-being of the women they impregnate? Yes or no will suffice; they’re easy questions.

And no, rpp, I am neither inexperienced nor poorly informed. If you really think that there are women who think ‘oh, it’s a slow weekend, let’s go get abortions and pedicures’ you are very mistaken.

Men’s responsibility to their children is immaterial because a father has no legal standing when it comes to an abortion.

That does not mean that some men do not try to coerce women into having abortions. But it does mean that a father cannot stop a woman who decides to kill his child.

As for the actual text of the question, “Are men responsible…”, it is a silly one as the answer is obvious. Clearly men are not responsible. (just kidding here! Let’s all lighten up a bit.)

 

[mainusch]

I think a strong percentage of women have been convinced that unborn children are not really human beings, and therefore there’s nothing wrong with killing them. They don’t even think of it as killing at all. As absurd as that notion is, many, many women actually have been led to believe that.

When abortion is ultimately criminalized, the law will have to presume that those women who have contracted someone to kill their baby have done so in total ignorance of the biological facts, and their culpability should be greatly reduced based upon that premise.

However, once the damage of this mass-delusion begins to fade, and it can no longer be argued that someone didn’t know their baby was human, then the penalty will have to increase to better fit their crime.

IMO

 

[Hastrman]

I haven’t accused anyone of being anything. Nor have I used insulting terms to refer to you, although you certainly don’t seem hesitant with the badmouthing.

I am asking you, again…are men responsible for the children they sire? Are they responsible for the well-being of the women they impregnate? Yes or no will suffice; they’re easy questions.

And no, rpp, I am neither inexperienced nor poorly informed. If you really think that there are women who think ‘oh, it’s a slow weekend, let’s go get abortions and pedicures’ you are very mistaken.

Men are responsible for the children they sire, and the women they impregnate. Obviously.

But that does not give a woman a right to murder an innocent child, or rather to procure that child’s murder from an assassin with a medical license.

Women who procure abortions are frequently desperate, although not always (look at the statistics and you’ll discover that many women who have abortions are well-off, many of them married). If a woman is desperate her culpability is lessened, so she is not as to blame as if she made a calculated decision.

And you do phrase things in such a manner as to imply that your opponents are mysogynists. If you don’t realize you’re doing it, it’s because you have an unquestioned assumption: all who oppose abortion are mysogynists.

 

[Yerusalyim]

You give the doctor, or the abortionist the jail sentence. If a woman does it twice, then you can start to think about a sentence for her.

 

[Nepenthe]

Quite a few men seem to think women aren’t human beings either, and don’t give a rip if a woman they got pregnant can’t get food or medical help through the pregnancy. Nor do they apparently think their children are human either, if they aren’t interested in helping to raise them. Even if no one coerced an abandoned pregnant woman into terminating a pregnancy directly, in many cases, she may feel there was no alternative. If only people valued other people more, and had genuine love and compassion, perhaps these painful choices would happen far less often.

Oh, there’s more than enough blame to go around, and women and children, as usual, get more than their share of suffering. Can’t we do better, all of us?

And rpp, I had directed those first two paragraphs at Hastrman, but I agree, some lightening up would be a fine thing.

And Hastrman, do tell me where I implied that you or anyone in this thread is a misogynist?

 

[Hastrman]

And Hastrman, do tell me where I implied that you or anyone in this thread is a misogynist?

I see your point: rereading your posts, I realize that you don’t really imply that I or others are mysogynists.

What you definitely do imply is that men are evil, and are responsible when women have abortions, every single time (in high school, by the way, my best friend’s girlfriend aborted their child against his wishes–is that his fault?) You talk of applying the same penalty to men as to women, merely for siring children that are aborted. I do apologize for misinterpreting your statements.

By that logic, if you kill someone in a robbery to pay off a gambling debt, the person you owe the debt to is just as responsible for the murder as you. They might have put you in that situation, but they are not responsible for how you chose to handle it.

Now, I think that if a man coerces a woman into an abortion, he’s culpable, not her; if they both decide to do it, they’re both culpable; and if she decides on her own, she’s culpable. I know that’s counter-intuitive.

 

[Nepenthe]

I didn’t imply anything of that sort either, Hastrman. I am not a misandrist. Can you just make a point without inventing some kind of conflict? You’re not making yourself sound any smarter by ranting over imagined slights and non-existent enmities.

I did say there’s more than enough blame to go around, and I meant that for all people.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If the secular authorities once again consider abortion a crime, how much time should a women convicted of aborting her child serve?

christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/augustweb-only/133-22.0.html

Our system, imperfect as it is, considers each case on its owm merits – with, of course, a broad band of discretion for sentencing those found guilty.

Absent any other consideration, I would say a person who murders a child in January should get the same sentence as someone who murders that child the following December.

 

[rpp]

Quite a few men seem to think women aren’t human beings either, and don’t give a rip if a woman they got pregnant can’t get food or medical help through the pregnancy. Nor do they apparently think their children are human either, if they aren’t interested in helping to raise them. Even if no one coerced an abandoned pregnant woman into terminating a pregnancy directly, in many cases, she may feel there was no alternative. If only people valued other people more, and had genuine love and compassion, perhaps these painful choices would happen far less often.

Oh, there’s more than enough blame to go around, and women and children, as usual, get more than their share of suffering. Can’t we do better, all of us?

And rpp, I had directed those first two paragraphs at Hastrman, but I agree, some lightening up would be a fine thing.

And Hastrman, do tell me where I implied that you or anyone in this thread is a misogynist?

No problem.

But just because a particular male is an irresponsible cad does not mean the child should be executed.

 

[Nepenthe]

Then why should the woman he abandoned be held more responsible? If it’s so ‘obvious’ that men are responsible for the children they sire and for the well-being of the women who bear them, why don’t more of them recognize that? It isn’t just a few irresponsible cads – there are millions, and again, how do you propose forcing them to take responsibility? Or perhaps single mothers should be entitled to full medical care and household support from a public fund? I can’t see that going over well with this crowd…Or, when it comes down to it, must women bear the brunt of all the responsibility, culpability, pain and sacrifice that come with either bearing children and raising them, or terminating pregnancy?

 

[rpp]

Then why should the woman he abandoned be held more responsible? If it’s so ‘obvious’ that men are responsible for the children they sire and for the well-being of the women who bear them, why don’t more of them recognize that? It isn’t just a few irresponsible cads – there are millions, and again, how do you propose forcing them to take responsibility? Or perhaps single mothers should be entitled to full medical care and household support from a public fund? I can’t see that going over well with this crowd…Or, when it comes down to it, must women bear the brunt of all the responsibility, culpability, pain and sacrifice that come with either bearing children and raising them, or terminating pregnancy?

I think there are two reasons for this. Maternal instinct can be powerful. But it is one that takes some time to develop.

The other reason is that is easier for a man to pretend that a pregnancy does not exist than it is for a woman to do so.

 

[krissy343]

Nobody has an abortion for fun, but because they can see no other way to survive. Perhaps if life was improved in quality all around, there would be no need for such things.

These women and men who choose to have sex out of marriage should have thought about the consequences BEFORE they decided to have sex. It shouldn’t be suprising to them that sex = pregnancy. If they didn’t have the emotional, physical etc. means to care for a child, they shouldn’t have done the act in the first place. What about the unborn baby’s survival? That baby didn’t choose to be concieved. Once a woman is pregnant, it isn’t about what she wants anymore.

 

[vern_humphrey]

These women and men who choose to have sex out of marriage should have thought about the consequences BEFORE they decided to have sex. It shouldn’t be suprising to them that sex = pregnancy. If they didn’t have the emotional, physical etc. means to care for a child, they shouldn’t have done the act in the first place. What about the unborn baby’s survival? That baby didn’t choose to be concieved. Once a woman is pregnant, it isn’t about what she wants anymore.

Nor about what he wants anymore. But we live in a society that is loath to hold people resonsible for their own actions. And surprise, surprise, we get a lot of irresponsible people.

 

[krissy343]

Ok, I’m a bit backwords lol. Now, replying to the OP I belive murder is murder whether the individual being murdered is a fetus, child, adult… All parties involved should suffer the consequences. Our world today is so messed up If somebody kills a 1 day old baby they serve time in prison (hopefully life) but the killing of an innocent fetus is legal. So sad, it breaks my heart

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ok, I’m a bit backwords lol. Now, replying to the OP I belive murder is murder whether the individual being murdered is a fetus, child, adult… All parties involved should suffer the consequences. Our world today is so messed up If somebody kills a 1 day old baby they serve time in prison (hopefully life) but the killing of an innocent fetus is legal. So sad, it breaks my heart

You and I are in agreement here. As I said, our system rightfully considers each case on its merits – but all other things being equal, I see no difference between the murder of the child in January and the murder of the same child the following December.

I recall an article – sympathetic to women who get abortions – in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. It told how some women have to drive from western Tennessee to Little Rock to get abortions. One poor woman had to make the trip three times!!

Pardon me if I say that “poor woman” is a serial killer. And so is the guy who got her pregnant, if he knew about it.

 

[krissy343]

I recall an article – sympathetic to women who get abortions – in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. It told how some women have to drive from western Tennessee to Little Rock to get abortions. One poor woman had to make the trip three times!!

Pardon me if I say that “poor woman” is a serial killer. And so is the guy who got her pregnant, if he knew about it.

Oh what an inconvienience for that “poor woman”! Yup, they are both murderers along with the doctor that performs the abortion and IMO so are the lawmakers that are allowing it to happen!!! :tsktsk:

 

[DJgang]

If abortions were illegal and everyone involved could end up serving time…how are they going to be found?

Abortion sting operations?

The sure fire way to stop abortions is to put the Abortionists in prison, or death sentence. We do know of all the women who now say that they regret their abortions (not all, but a lot), let’s say that telling on that Abortionists might be a great healing process…

So, the woman is the rat. A few months later, if she felt coerced, forced, etc and wants revenage (yes, it’s a human fault), then what better witness to have than the woman herself. If she is facing a prison sentence, she may never come forward and tell who is performing illegal abortions.

Just my opinion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If abortions were illegal and everyone involved could end up serving time…how are they going to be found?

Abortion sting operations?

The sure fire way to stop abortions is to put the Abortionists in prison, or death sentence. We do know of all the women who now say that they regret their abortions (not all, but a lot), let’s say that telling on that Abortionists might be a great healing process…

And suring them, as well. Which is why I’m pushing for a law that makes a 4D sonogram a matter of informed conscent, and allows underage girls who have been aborted to sue upon reaching majority.

So, the woman is the rat. A few months later, if she felt coerced, forced, etc and wants revenage (yes, it’s a human fault), then what better witness to have than the woman herself. If she is facing a prison sentence, she may never come forward and tell who is performing illegal abortions.

Just my opinion.

You have a point. And I’d rather put a serial killer (and some of these abortionists have killed literally thousands) our of commissioin than a one-time abortion seeker.

 

[Mirdath]

I think there are two reasons for this. Maternal instinct can be powerful. But it is one that takes some time to develop.

The other reason is that is easier for a man to pretend that a pregnancy does not exist than it is for a woman to do so.

You’re dodging the question: why should the woman be held more responsible for a conception? It was an act that – hopefully, but not always – required about equal participation. Why does the sperm donor get to run off scot-free while the woman has to go through pregnancy and childbirth?

krissy343:

These women and men who choose to have sex out of marriage should have thought about the consequences BEFORE they decided to have sex.

Anything can have undesirable consequences – and you are not doing your position any favors by implying that a pregnancy is an undesirable consequence of sex.

I have a car. I drive places, along with plenty of other people on the road; some of them are good drivers, some are lunatics. Every time I get in that car, I risk getting into an accident – potentially one that could cause injury or death to an innocent passenger or passerby. Since that risk is always present, should I give up the keys and walk everywhere I need to go in a large metropolitan area? If I’m going to visit family in other states, should I walk those hundreds of miles because I’ve ‘thought about the consequences’ of driving?

Do you drive?

DJgang:

The sure fire way to stop abortions is to put the Abortionists in prison, or death sentence. We do know of all the women who now say that they regret their abortions (not all, but a lot), let’s say that telling on that Abortionists might be a great healing process…

Putting doctors in prison will only make abortions less safe. It’s not going to stop anyone drinking poison to induce a miscarriage, it’s not going to stop punches to the stomach or pushes at the top of staircases, it’s not going to stop amateurs with coathangers.

Doctors do not force anyone to get an abortion. Some women may feel pressured into it by family, friends, or society in general, but in the end the doctor didn’t go out and drag them into the clinic.

Way to go with the death sentence note, by the way. The cure for killing is more killing? How… pro-life.