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inJESUS
Guest
at least this is one of the passages that show how people at muhammad’s time had the Word of God that you claim God was unable to preserve .
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Morning_Star15
Guest
Ham, here’s one thing you seem to have a problem grasping: Jesus was born a Jew and raised to follow Jewish laws - He then founded Christianity, which has its own set of laws (some of which come from Judaism, some of which do not), and these Christian laws are the ones Christians are supposed to follow.
Muhammad was born and raised a pagan, wasn’t he? He grew up following pagan laws and rituals, and founded a new religion called Islam, which has its own set of laws.
So if to really follow Jesus is to follow Jewish laws and rituals, then to really follow Muhammad is to follow pagan laws and rituals, since this is what he practiced. So why don’t you follow Muhammad properly by burning incense to some pagan gods in a pagan temple?
Muhammad was born and raised a pagan, wasn’t he? He grew up following pagan laws and rituals, and founded a new religion called Islam, which has its own set of laws.
So if to really follow Jesus is to follow Jewish laws and rituals, then to really follow Muhammad is to follow pagan laws and rituals, since this is what he practiced. So why don’t you follow Muhammad properly by burning incense to some pagan gods in a pagan temple?
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Zooey
Guest
Then we are all still in our sins. If there was no Perfect Sacrifice for sin, we are all of us going to hell…Every. Single. Person. Ever. Born.
So, what possible reason does anyone have to even attempt to live a decent moral life?? Much less repent of sin??
Oh! Wait a minute. That’s right: Muslims
don’t believe that we have to repent & be baptized.
Silly me!!
I was thinking like a Christian again.Thanks and praise forever be to my
Lord Jesus Christ, :byzsoc: Saviour of all the world, who gave up His home in Glory to save a wretch like me from sin. By dying on the cross of Calvary, & rising again from the dead on the 3rd day.[SIGN]
Hallelujah!! What a Saviour!!! [/SIGN]
Z
Zooey
Guest
:yup:
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DylanO
Guest
I am a Roman Catholic Christian and I am circumcised. I was circumcised not long after I was born.
K
kellie
Guest
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Montalban
Guest
You could try 60 million times for what it’s worth. Ham has no intent to really discuss things here.
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rbarcia
Guest
Jesus true followers believe He is the Son of God, that He died on the cross, and that He rose from the Dead. You do not believe this truth, thus you do not believe in Jesus, but your own jesus, who you make up in your mind, which is idol.
**
John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
1 John 4:14-16
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
**
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dolphinlove
Guest
My dear Christian friends…
I think its a CLEAR as crystal, Ham will NEVER believe what we do, no matter what scriptures etc we show him.
I think it will take Jesus himself to go up to Ham and say ‘I died on the cross for your sins’.
But… in saying that… I can see Ham saying… But Mohammed said you didnt.
I really think there will never be an agreement here.
I think its a CLEAR as crystal, Ham will NEVER believe what we do, no matter what scriptures etc we show him.
I think it will take Jesus himself to go up to Ham and say ‘I died on the cross for your sins’.
But… in saying that… I can see Ham saying… But Mohammed said you didnt.
I really think there will never be an agreement here.
G
guanophore
Guest
The OP invalidated himself at the beginning, by calling Jesus a “prophet”. Jesus claimed to be the son of God, therefore, by rejecting Jesus testimony about Himself, they reject all of what He said and did. He is a liar, so should not be followed or believed.in this thread, will you ignore any comments or questions to which you have no satisfactory answer?
it’s best not to feed this troll people:thumbsup: we know just like the previous threads in this series that ham will just keep on repeating the same point regardless of what is posted by anyone else
B
Booklover
Guest
You still don’t get it, do you? Do you think that God really cares whether you are clean or not on the outside? All He cares about is a sincere and humble prayer!
You’re so bogged down with manmade laws being passed off as God’s, that you can’t see the forest for the trees!
Vickie
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hamba2han
Guest
"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper." Noble Qur’an, [16:123]
To all others who have posted their views, much of what you have replied is outside the scope of this topic and so I think it is best for me to hold my replies to a later time and in other more appropriate threads, God-willing.
BTW folks, please do not call me “Ham”, I find it to be a rather obnoxious name.
If you do want to shorten my handle, then you can call me “hamba”.
H
hamba2han
Guest
Polygamy
There is no record of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) opposing polygamy. If he did so, it would have meant that the condemned the practice of the prophets before him. There are a number of examples of polygamous marriages among the prophets recorded in the Torah. Prophet Abraham had two wives, according to Genesis 16:13:** “So after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.”** So Prophet David, according to the first book of Samuel 27:3, “And David dwelt with Achish at Gat, he and his men, every man with his household, and David with his two wives, Ahin’o-am of Jezreel, and Abigail of Carmel, Nabal’s widow.”
In 1st Kings 11:3, Solomon is said to have “…had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.” Solomon’s son, Rehobo’am, also had a number of wives, according to 2nd Chronicles 11:21,** “Rehobo’am loved Ma’acah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and concubines (he took eighteen wives and sixty concubines, and had twenty-eight sons and sixty daughters).”**
In fact, the Torah even specified laws regarding the division of inheritance in polygamous circumstances. In Deuteronomy 21:15-16, the law states: “15 If a man has two wives, the one loved and the other disliked, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the disliked, and if the first-born son is hers that is disliked, 16then on the day when he assigns his possessions as an inheritance to his sons, he may not treat the son of the loved as the first-born in preference to the son of the disliked, who is the first-born.”
The only restriction on polygamy was the ban on taking a wife’s sister as a rival wife in Leviticus 18:18, “And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is yet alive.” The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives as was the practice of Prophet Jacob.
According to Father Eugene Hillman, “Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.” He further stressed the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to Graeco-Roman culture which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution.
Islam limited polygamy to a maximum of four wives at one time and stipulated the maintenance of justice as a basic condition for polygamy. In Chapter an-Nisaa (4):3, God states:
} فَانْكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُمْ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً … {
“Marry of the women that please you two, three or four. But if you fear that you will not be able to deal justly, then [marry only] one …”
And so, Muslims follow Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in not opposing polygamy.
There is no record of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) opposing polygamy. If he did so, it would have meant that the condemned the practice of the prophets before him. There are a number of examples of polygamous marriages among the prophets recorded in the Torah. Prophet Abraham had two wives, according to Genesis 16:13:** “So after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.”** So Prophet David, according to the first book of Samuel 27:3, “And David dwelt with Achish at Gat, he and his men, every man with his household, and David with his two wives, Ahin’o-am of Jezreel, and Abigail of Carmel, Nabal’s widow.”
In 1st Kings 11:3, Solomon is said to have “…had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.” Solomon’s son, Rehobo’am, also had a number of wives, according to 2nd Chronicles 11:21,** “Rehobo’am loved Ma’acah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and concubines (he took eighteen wives and sixty concubines, and had twenty-eight sons and sixty daughters).”**
In fact, the Torah even specified laws regarding the division of inheritance in polygamous circumstances. In Deuteronomy 21:15-16, the law states: “15 If a man has two wives, the one loved and the other disliked, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the disliked, and if the first-born son is hers that is disliked, 16then on the day when he assigns his possessions as an inheritance to his sons, he may not treat the son of the loved as the first-born in preference to the son of the disliked, who is the first-born.”
The only restriction on polygamy was the ban on taking a wife’s sister as a rival wife in Leviticus 18:18, “And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is yet alive.” The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives as was the practice of Prophet Jacob.
According to Father Eugene Hillman, “Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.” He further stressed the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to Graeco-Roman culture which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution.
Islam limited polygamy to a maximum of four wives at one time and stipulated the maintenance of justice as a basic condition for polygamy. In Chapter an-Nisaa (4):3, God states:
} فَانْكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُمْ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً … {
“Marry of the women that please you two, three or four. But if you fear that you will not be able to deal justly, then [marry only] one …”
And so, Muslims follow Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in not opposing polygamy.
M
Morning_Star15
Guest
Okay hamba, I see you’re contradicting yourself here. You’re saying that Muhammad said “don’t worship idols”, even though he had previously done so himself as a pagan, so you don’t have to worship idols. But on the other hand, Jesus said “you don’t have to follow Jewish laws” after He had previously done so as a Jew, but Christians still have to follow Jewish laws, regardless of His commands! This is a double-standard at best (or just some very poor logic). How do you explain it?
L
LilyM
Guest
How about when he said ‘this is why a man leaves his parents and clings to his wife and the TWO become one flesh’.
Note wife, not wives plural, and TWO people - one man and one woman - not THREE people or FOUR or FIVE. If Jesus said three or four or five people, THEN he would be permitting one man to have two, three or four wives.
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inJESUS
Guest
Muhammad did not say Jesus was not crucified. Muhammad simply inserted the Gnostic interpretation as the so-called word of Allah.My dear Christian friends…
I think its a CLEAR as crystal, Ham will NEVER believe what we do, no matter what scriptures etc we show him.
I think it will take Jesus himself to go up to Ham and say ‘I died on the cross for your sins’.
But… in saying that… I can see Ham saying… But Mohammed said you didnt.
I really think there will never be an agreement here.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
typical of ham’s approach - hides the information that goes against his point
as we all know, Muslims do not circumcise their boys at eight days, so ham proves by his example that Muslims do not follow Jesus
H
hamba2han
Guest
The Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, never worshiped idols at any time before he became a Prophet because right from his birth, he was brought up in the sight and under the care of God.Okay hamba, I see you’re contradicting yourself here. You’re saying that Muhammad said “don’t worship idols”, even though he had previously done so himself as a pagan, so you don’t have to worship idols. But on the other hand, Jesus said “you don’t have to follow Jewish laws” after He had previously done so as a Jew, but Christians still have to follow Jewish laws, regardless of His commands! This is a double-standard at best (or just some very poor logic). How do you explain it?
Extraordinary events took place on the night of his birth. For example, most of the idols at the Ka‘ba toppled over; the palace of the Sassanid Emperor shook and cracked, and its fourteen pinnacles collapsed; the small lake of Sawa in Persia sank into the earth, and the fire which was worshipped by the Magians at Istakhrabad and had been lit continually for a thousand years was extinguished. Together with these events, the different character he displayed even in his childhood and the meaningful signs men of insight observed on him meant that he would undertake a great mission in future.
As related by historians and biographers such as Ibn Ishaq, his uncle Abu Talib took him to Syria in a trade caravan, when he was ten or twelve years old. They stopped somewhere near Damascus and left him, as he was the youngest among them, to watch over the caravan. The caravan was being carefully observed by a monk from his nearby monastery, one who had been expecting the arrival of the Last Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings. The monk, named Bahira, had seen a cloud following the caravan, stopping when the caravan stopped, starting when the caravan started to shade one amongst them.1 ‘This is a special characteristic of Prophets. The expected Prophet must be in that caravan,’ he thought.
When the caravan stopped near his monastery, Bahira sent for the tradesmen and invited them for a meal. He noticed the cloud was still hovering over the caravan. Bahira asked Abu Talib if someone was left behind. Abu Talib answered that there was only a young boy, whom they had left to watch over their things. The monk asked them to fetch him. When Muhammad came, Bahira took Abu Talib to one side and asked him about his relationship with the boy. ‘He is my son,’ Abu Talib answered, but Bahira disputed this, saying: ‘He cannot be your son. According to our books, his father must have died before his birth.’ Then he added: ‘Let me give you this advice. Take this boy back immediately. The Jews are envious. If they recognize him, they will harm him.’ Abu Talib made an excuse to the other members of the caravan and returned to Makka with his nephew.
The rest of the article can be read here.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
Right…so strange things happened the night of his birth and he met a monk - this very clearly proves that someone raised by pagans doesn’t follow any pagan rituals. I’m now totally convinced that Muhammad was not a pagan but a Muslim before Islam was invented.
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hamba2han
Guest
This passage from the Bible does not at all prohibit polygamy and in fact, from my previous post – “Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.”
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