How not to be poor

[Prometheum_x]

Island Oak:

Simplicity and common sense in lifestyle and avoiding debt may work sufficiently when families are young–though personally I can’t imagine how you can support a small family–much less a large one–on minimum wage earnings.

However, things get significantly more complicated as you look at higher education. Case-in-point–my neice was accepted at a Catholic University in the midwest. She was an excellent student in H.S. and was offered $5000 in scholarship money. Even after deducting that, her parents must swallow an annual tuition/housing bill of $25,000 (that’s after tax dollars) which, by the way, hardly represents the high end of private college tuition. These are BIG dollars when compared to minimum wage earnings–and that’s just for one kid–do the math for multiples. If your goal is to be able to provide a higher education for your kids and not have them graduate burdened with almost insurmountable debt–it’s going to take a **** of a lot more than minimum wage!

p.s. one of the factors most commonly associated with NOT being poor is a 4-year college education.

As my parents did before me, and as all my siblings have done, if I ever have children they will pay for their own college education. I will gladly let them live at home if they so desire, but by that point in there life their educational/career path is fully their responsibility.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Island Oak:

Simplicity and common sense in lifestyle and avoiding debt may work sufficiently when families are young–though personally I can’t imagine how you can support a small family–much less a large one–on minimum wage earnings.

However, things get significantly more complicated as you look at higher education. Case-in-point–my neice was accepted at a Catholic University in the midwest. She was an excellent student in H.S. and was offered $5000 in scholarship money. Even after deducting that, her parents must swallow an annual tuition/housing bill of $25,000 (that’s after tax dollars) which, by the way, hardly represents the high end of private college tuition. These are BIG dollars when compared to minimum wage earnings–and that’s just for one kid–do the math for multiples. If your goal is to be able to provide a higher education for your kids and not have them graduate burdened with almost insurmountable debt–it’s going to take a **** of a lot more than minimum wage!

p.s. one of the factors most commonly associated with NOT being poor is a 4-year college education.

A college education does not insure a good income, nor does a lack of one insure that one won’t have a good income. I admit that it is much more difficult to help ones children with college expenses if one doesn’t start saving even before the children come but it is not impossible. Moreover, it is not impossible that children pay their own way.

It’s very difficult but I worked 40-60 hours per week and finished college in four years. I was tired all of the time and felt sick much of the time but I did it.

But I repeat, wealth and happiness are not dependent upon a college degree.

Dan L

 

[GregoryPalamas]

AmberDale:

Greg- Your scenerio does seem to work. But what if you make 40k before takes (both working), before health insurance, before bills.

We can’t afford to give 10% to church, so I guess we don’t tithe. but we make darn sure that our envelopes each week have something in it. Be that $10 for the regular envelope, and $5 for the extra envelopes. But you know we give no matter what.

My health insurance is 265 a paycheck, not a month a PAYCHECK!! But I absolutely have to have it.

We just recently realized we are living beyond our means. We live in a too big house that costs too much. Our solution, try to sell it. Rent for awhile. So when my dh finishes his degree I can stay home with the kids.

I don’t care about getting rich, I just want to be able to feed my kids without my grandma having to force money into my hand.

Amberdale,

I not trying to come off as sounding like I know all of the answers. I don’t know all of your circumstances. Living in too big a house is a big big problem. Housing will eat you alive. Renting is like throwing money away. Why not buy a very modest home once you sell the one you have? If you are handy get a fixer upper. If your big house can sell for $150,000 why not downsize to an $80,000 house. Every market is different. If you don’t have children start with a 2 bedroom 1 bath house that needs a little fixing. Keep it for five years and sell it for $125,000. Your equity in most markets willl give you $50-60K. Then buy a three bedroom, one bath fixer upper for $125,000. Keep it five years and sell it for $200,000. You should have well over $100,000 in equity. Then buy whatever you need for your growing family. With $100,000 down anyone can buy virtually any house they would wish to buy, though I don’t recommend it. Keep that dream house to under $500,000 if possible. If you live in Rio Lindo (sp?) you may have to move in order to keep costs under 1/2 million.

If you start out young (under 40) and remain disciplined it’s amazing what you can do.

I just noticed that you live in Indiana. I don’t know of any housing market in Indiana that is as expensive as suburban Chicago where we live. You ought to be able to pull off this scenario quite easily and probably tithe as well.

Dan L

 

[Pete2]

Did I read a different article than everyone else??? This article is about racism, and this guy sounds like a racist. “Gee black people, why are you so poor? It’s easy to not be poor, just follow these simple steps.” This article is trying to tell the reader that racism has nothing to do with black poverty.

But maybe someone should point out to this moron that white people enslaved black people not all that long ago, and that black people have been clawing their way back ever since. Maybe the civil rights struggle is “over”, but where does decades upon decades of being second class citizens leave black people today? When you start 50 yards before the starting line, it’s kind of hard to catch up to the rest of the runners.

Pete

 

[Island_Oak]

GregoryPalamas:

A college education does not insure a good income, nor does a lack of one insure that one won’t have a good income. I admit that it is much more difficult to help ones children with college expenses if one doesn’t start saving even before the children come but it is not impossible. Moreover, it is not impossible that children pay their own way.

It’s very difficult but I worked 40-60 hours per week and finished college in four years. I was tired all of the time and felt sick much of the time but I did it.

But I repeat, wealth and happiness are not dependent upon a college degree.

Dan L

I spoke nothing of “happiness” nor “insurance” as there are no guarantees in this life. However, statistically, there is no dispute that highest corollary for income above the poverty level is completion of a four-year college degree. I KNOW there are success stories of among individuals without one and that not everyone unable to attend college for whatever reason is doomed to poverty. An earlier poster mentioned the value of being an owner instead of an employee. This applies equally to a plumbing business as it does to Microsoft (incidentally run by Harvard drop-out, Bill Gates). Hard work, goal-setting and determination are all essential to anyone who hopes to be financially secure as opposed to just scraping by. But the statistics bear out the positive impact of getting a degree on earning capacity–thus the reason so many parents recognize and aspire to put themselves in a financial position to provide this worthwhile goal and life-long gift to their children and grandchildren.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Pete,

That’s certainly a moral issue. What have you done to help some blacks out of poverty?

If there are persons who wish to get out of poverty whether they are black or yellow or white or whatever collor and with whatever background people can get out of poverty. None of it has to do with how badly our anscestors were treated, nor what color we are. It is possible to be “more than conquerors through Christ who loves us.” No one need to stumble through life depending upon excuses there are people who will help if we wish to be helped. But as the Buddhists say, “No one can save you. Everything depends upon you.”

Dan L

 

[Island_Oak]

Pete2:

Did I read a different article than everyone else??? This article is about racism, and this guy sounds like a racist. “Gee black people, why are you so poor? It’s easy to not be poor, just follow these simple steps.” This article is trying to tell the reader that racism has nothing to do with black poverty.

But maybe someone should point out to this moron that white people enslaved black people not all that long ago, and that black people have been clawing their way back ever since. Maybe the civil rights struggle is “over”, but where does decades upon decades of being second class citizens leave black people today? When you start 50 yards before the starting line, it’s kind of hard to catch up to the rest of the runners.

Pete

The article link provided by the OP was posted on the “Town Hall” web site, a project of the extremely conservative Heritage Foundation. While they often attract provocative intellectual elites, the Heritage was founded and briefly led by Paul Weyrich–along with Joseph Coors and Richard Mellon Sciafe–in the 70s and has frequently been the target of allegations of racism.

 

[Pete2]

GregoryPalamas:

Pete,

That’s certainly a moral issue. What have you done to help some blacks out of poverty?

If there are persons who wish to get out of poverty whether they are black or yellow or white or whatever collor and with whatever background people can get out of poverty. None of it has to do with how badly our anscestors were treated, nor what color we are. It is possible to be “more than conquerors through Christ who loves us.” No one need to stumble through life depending upon excuses there are people who will help if we wish to be helped. But as the Buddhists say, “No one can save you. Everything depends upon you.”

Dan L

The author of the linked article, which no one on this thread apparently read past the first couple paragraphs, is saying that racism has nothing to do with black poverty. That is complete nonsense. Racism has a lot to do with black poverty. I do agree with you, and Bill Cosby, that everyone has to take responsibility for themselves. But to say that slavery and racism has nothing to do with the current situation among the black community today is like saying the holocaust didn’t happen.

Further, you’re a little out of step with reality to think that it’s a simple thing for families and communities to break out of a cycle of poor education, no money, drug abuse, domestic violence, etc., etc. If you grew up in a household at the poverty line, and your father abused drugs, and abused you, or was completely absent, and your school was more of a zoo than a place of learning, and you’re surrounded by thousands of others who are in exactly the same situation… then what do you think your point of view of the world would be? What kind of tools do you think you would have to rise out of poverty? How would your kids rise out of poverty when they have the exact same experience?

And for you to challenge me with how I’ve helped blacks is ignorant. You don’t know anything about what charities I support, or whether I’m even black myself.

Pete

 

[Pete2]

Island Oak:

The article link provided by the OP was posted on the “Town Hall” web site, a project of the extremely conservative Heritage Foundation. While they often attract provocative intellectual elites, the Heritage was founded and briefly led by Paul Weyrich–along with Joseph Coors and Richard Mellon Sciafe–in the 70s and has frequently been the target of allegations of racism.

Well, I guess that explains a lot! Thanks for providing the context on that one, Island Oak, I’d never heard of the website or the organization. I’ll make sure not to waste my time reading that garbage ever again.

Pete

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Pete2:

The author of the linked article, which no one on this thread apparently read past the first couple paragraphs, is saying that racism has nothing to do with black poverty. That is complete nonsense. Racism has a lot to do with black poverty. I do agree with you, and Bill Cosby, that everyone has to take responsibility for themselves. But to say that slavery and racism has nothing to do with the current situation among the black community today is like saying the holocaust didn’t happen.

Further, you’re a little out of step with reality to think that it’s a simple thing for families and communities to break out of a cycle of poor education, no money, drug abuse, domestic violence, etc., etc. If you grew up in a household at the poverty line, and your father abused drugs, and abused you, or was completely absent, and your school was more of a zoo than a place of learning, and you’re surrounded by thousands of others who are in exactly the same situation… then what do you think your point of view of the world would be? What kind of tools do you think you would have to rise out of poverty? How would your kids rise out of poverty when they have the exact same experience?

And for you to challenge me with how I’ve helped blacks is ignorant. You don’t know anything about what charities I support, or whether I’m even black myself.

Pete

Pete,

I can say the same of your knowledge of me. Big deal.

Dan L

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Pete, You forgot to read the author’s bio. Walt Williams is a great black person. He doesn’t like your kind of racism. It keeps blacks in poverty, and he knows it.

Dan L
Born in Philadelphia in 1936, Walter E. Williams holds a bachelor’s degree in economics from California State University (1965) and a master’s degree (1967) and doctorate (1972) in economics from the University of California at Los Angeles.

In 1980, he joined the faculty of George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., and is currently the John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics. He has also served on the faculties of Los Angeles City College (1967-69), California State University (1967-1971) and Temple University (1973-1980). From 1963 to 1967, he was a group supervisor of juvenile delinquents for the Los Angeles County Probation Department.

More than 50 of his publications have appeared in scholarly journals such as Economic Inquiry, American Economic Review and Social Science Quarterly and popular publications such as *Reader’s Digest, The Wall Street Journal *and Newsweek. He has made many TV and radio appearances on such programs as Milton Friedman’s “Free to Choose,” William F. Buckley’s “Firing Line,” “Face The Nation,” “Nightline” and “Crossfire.” He is also the author of several books. Among these are The State Against Blacks, later made into a television documentary, America: A Minority Viewpoint, All It Takes Is Guts, and South Africa’s War On Capitalism.

In 1981, he began writing his weekly column called “A Minority View” for Heritage Features Syndicate. And in 1991, he joined Creators Syndicate as part of its friendly takeover of Heritage Features.

Williams sits on many advisory boards, including the Review Board of Economics Studies for the National Science Foundation, the Research Foundation, the National Tax Limitation Committee, the Taxpayer’s Foundation and the Hoover Institution.

The awards and honors Williams have received are many. These include the National Fellow at the Hoover Institute of War, Revolution, and Peace; the Ford Foundation Dissertation Fellowship; the National Service Award from the Institute for Socioeconomic Studies; and the George Washington Medal of Honor from the Valley Forge Freedom Foundation. In 1984-1985, he received the Faculty Member of the Year Award from the George Mason University Alumni. He is also a member of the American Economic Association, the Mont Pelerin Society and is a Distinguished Scholar of the Heritage Foundation.

Williams participates in many debates and conferences, is a frequent public speaker and often gives testimony before both houses of Congress.

 

[Shinobu]

Theodora:

What I don’t understand is, how come that regardless of the sluggish economy, the lack of jobs, and the huge trade deficits we have with other countries, money is being spent like crazy. I see it by the many most recent models of cars on the road. Very, very seldom do I see what can be considered an “old jalopy.”

It is my opinion (and part of what I have seen other doing), that people buy with money they DON’T have. They get loans or use credit cards or find some way to shift money usage so they can buy all these big thngs they think they need.

It’s like the one commercial with the guy with the fake smile on his face going on about all the wonderful things he owns for himself and his family and at the end he says between the smile “Somebody please help me”. Indeed, we need help.

 

[Pete2]

GregoryPalamas:

Pete,

I can say the same of your knowledge of me. Big deal.

Dan L

“I know you are, but what am I”? Is that what you’re saying?

And in your next post, you call me a racist?

Are you in high school, by chance?

 

[Shinobu]

Pete2:

The author of the linked article, which no one on this thread apparently read past the first couple paragraphs,

Pete

Actually I did, but frankly, I am so tired of the race debate.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I don’t think Dan L. was trying to be …snobbish or racist or anything like that - to all appearances he was just stating what has worked so far for him.

As for the actual article in question: I don’t think it was racist. It was saying basicly that the reason many blacks are poor has nothing to do with race. If you compare unwed parents, under-educated blacks to any other race demographic in the same situation (unwed/under-educated) you will find that they are EQUAL in their financial hardships. In other words, the best thing any black man/woman can do for their future is the same as any other man/woman: education + a strong marriage = a more financially stable generation regardless of skin color.

About that college education = higher income thing. I have to point out a point often over looked when people talk about this. Most people who obtain a college degree ALREADY come from parents who have a higher than average income/college level. Therefore a good deal of their higher income is often inherited, it certainly cushions them some. Now I’m NOT saying this is always the case, but if we’re talking statistics, the above is usually the case. One must also keep in mind that few college degrees automaticly equal a higher paying job. Many times you can’t get a job without the degree, but that does not mean the job you get pays all that great either.

I refuse to foot the bill for my dc education. I also wouldn’t allow for debt to go, either for us or the child. That is not to say I won’t help them though. They can work, they can live at home, ect… If I can go while raising 7 children, there is no excuse why they can’t go straight from home! It boils down to what is best for the child. If the kids doesn’t want it bad enough to work for it, then why should I? We have a highly academic life in this house and frankly I don’t think it’s crossed their minds NOT to go to college yet, but we’ll see how things continue for them.

My dh is fond of saying, “We need a priest/nun, a plumber, a lawyer, a doctor, a farmer, a carpenter, a computer tech, a… So which one do YOU want to be young man/little lady”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

AmberDale:

We can’t afford to give 10% to church, so I guess we don’t tithe. but we make darn sure that our envelopes each week have something in it. Be that $10 for the regular envelope, and $5 for the extra envelopes. But you know we give no matter what.

You are not required to tithe. This is a law of the Old Testament and not binding on Christians. The apologists on this site and every other site I’ve every seen have agreed on that. Financially, the Church does not ask you to do more than you are doing, so be comforted.

 

[Pete2]

Rob's Wife:

In other words, the best thing any black man/woman can do for their future is the same as any other man/woman: education + a strong marriage = a more financially stable generation regardless of skin color.

This argument completely ignores the point, which is that racism and slavery is what got black people into this situation in the first place.

And it is a spiral. The points you make, Rob’s Wife, on higher education/income make this point beautifully: it’s easier for a highly educated couple to give their kids good education because they probably are doing better than average financially, and they probably are smart enough to teach their kids good values.

Poor people from broken homes who were abused or lacked good leadership from parents, and whose parents did not provide good educations to them, are not well equipped to break out. You don’t have to go back more than a couple generations to figure out why black communities are in more of a rut than white communities: racism. Our parents and grandparents lived in a society where racism was acceptable. So now all the sudden we expect black people to break out of the cycle?

It’s like telling a poor homeless person on the street: why don’t you just get up off the ground, take a shower, and then go get yourself a job! Problem fixed! It is not that easy. Although I’m sure that the author of this article and his ultra-conservative Republican friends would probably think that homeless people COULD just get up off the street, take a shower, and become productive members of society.

Pete

 

[misericordie]

space ghost:

…remember, it’s not what you know, it’s…

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…sometimes it’s the path you choose…
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I am sure many will take their riches with their souls to heavean too?

 

[Island_Oak]

Rob's Wife:

About that college education = higher income thing. I have to point out a point often over looked when people talk about this. Most people who obtain a college degree ALREADY come from parents who have a higher than average income/college level. Therefore a good deal of their higher income is often inherited, it certainly cushions them some. Now I’m NOT saying this is always the case, but if we’re talking statistics, the above is usually the case. One must also keep in mind that few college degrees automaticly equal a higher paying job.

Sounds more like a social bias than anything supported by statistics as inherited wealth is entirely distinct from earned income–one can be enhanced by a college degree, the other is determined entirely by the genetics lottery. I don’t doubt there is a correlation between college educated parents and college attendance by their offspring–recognition of the value of the education–for many things in addition to mere income generating potential–is usually passed on. Inheritance, if it happens at all, is usually an event that occurs long after one becomes self-sufficient.

I refuse to foot the bill for my dc education. I also wouldn’t allow for debt to go, either for us or the child. That is not to say I won’t help them though. They can work, they can live at home, ect…If I can go while raising 7 children, there is no excuse why they can’t go straight from home! It boils down to what is best for the child…

Really?! With all due respect I wish your kids good luck–and lots of scholarship opportunities. I’m trying to imagine what kind of job is out there that provides an unskilled, inexperienced 18 year old with enough income to pay for college, living expenses, allows sufficient time to study and graduate debt-free within 4 years?!?

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Pete2:

Further, you’re a little out of step with reality to think that it’s a simple thing for families and communities to break out of a cycle of poor education, no money, drug abuse, domestic violence, etc., etc. If you grew up in a household at the poverty line, and your father abused drugs, and abused you, or was completely absent, and your school was more of a zoo than a place of learning, and you’re surrounded by thousands of others who are in exactly the same situation… then what do you think your point of view of the world would be? What kind of tools do you think you would have to rise out of poverty? How would your kids rise out of poverty when they have the exact same experience?

Okay, sigh I agree it’s hell being poor. What’s the worst thing about poverty? The absolute worst thing about being poor? Everyone thinking that because you’re poor you’re going to do drugs, have sex, beat the cp out of your family, and generally chose to do stupid things because “that’s the result of poverty”. No it’s NOT! NONE of those issues are in any way restricted to the poor.**

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Yes, I said CHOSE! It’s not easy to reach for a better life - it’s easy to listen to those who would hold you back or to give up when it gets hard. I don’t think Cosby was saying it is - but he is saying it’s something that people MUST be willing to do if they are going to ever have any hope for themselves and their children. For the life of me, I cannot understand why this is such a difficult thing for anyone to understand.

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And for you to challenge me with how I’ve helped blacks is ignorant. You don’t know anything about what charities I support, or whether I’m even black myself.

I don’t think Dan L. was challenging you at all. I think he was saying that this is obviously a personal issue for you and you should contribute to making a change to something you feel so strongly about. Whether you’re black or not doesn’t matter if you feel a need to help those particuliar charities.

Pete