How often do miracles occur?

[tonyrey]

Yes, but if God Perfectly wills a thing from all infinity - I dare not use the word “eternity” around these parts (considering how easily it is misunderstood) - then even a disaster is a miracle, is it not? We certainly don’t know His rationale, but, we can be sure of one thing, He has a rationale. Do you think otherwise?

God bless,
jd

I think God permits disasters, jd, but does not will them. He wills the laws of nature which cause them but does not, as Calvin thought, directly will every event in the universe. If he did He would be directly responsible for inflicting suffering on His creatures - which no loving Father would ever do.

 

[razredge]

You are.
But if you choose not to see the miracles, that is your choice.

If the mundane is miraculous then ‘miracle’ really is quite an unnecessary word isn’t it?

But Jesus also gave them an even bigger gift, also a miracle. The ability to see spiritually. The blind man in Jericho threw off his cloak, and followed Jesus. The reason was not that he needed more physical curing. He was leaving everything he had (his cloak) behind, so that he could follow the now “visible” Jesus to eternal life.

Note that he (and most of those who were cured) ASKED Jesus for it. Sometimes very persistently. They had much faith.

Have you tried asking for the gift of spiritual sight? Persistently? With much faith?

No, I haven’t - but I already have faith so what would the point be?

 

[vz71]

If the mundane is miraculous then ‘miracle’ really is quite an unnecessary word isn’t it?

To see the mundane is likewise a choice.

My kids likewise have differing points of view.
One does not believe I ever do anything for them, the other sees the time and resources I spend on them.
That the one has come to view everything I do for them as mundane is not a testament of what I have or have not done, but a testament to his own short-sightedness.

God’s work in our lives is the same.

If we are to profess that God has a plan for us, then we must accept all that plan implies, including a God that has defied all probability to bring us to exactly where we are.

 

[razredge]

Sigh, what you guys are trying to do is attempt to win the argument by redefining ‘miracle’ to mean any act of God.

Then of course there’d be miracles everywhere because all creation itself is a ‘miracle’.

Needless to say, that was not the point I was trying to make.

 

[tonyrey]

Sigh, what you guys are trying to do is attempt to win the argument by redefining ‘miracle’ to mean any act of God.

Then of course there’d be miracles everywhere because all creation itself is a ‘miracle’.

Needless to say, that was not the point I was trying to make.

I have defined a miracle in this context as “a suspension of the laws of nature”…

 

[tonyrey]

To see the mundane is likewise a choice.

My kids likewise have differing points of view.
One does not believe I ever do anything for them, the other sees the time and resources I spend on them.
That the one has come to view everything I do for them as mundane is not a testament of what I have or have not done, but a testament to his own short-sightedness.

God’s work in our lives is the same.

If we are to profess that God has a plan for us, then we must accept all that plan implies, including a God that has defied all probability to bring us to exactly where we are.

The improbability of an event is a key characteristic of its miraculous nature.

 

[tonyrey]

No, I haven’t - but I already have faith so what would the point be?

You don’t seem to have faith in miracles!

 

[tonyrey]

Well since you didn’t answer my question of whether God’s existence is miraculous or not, I’ll just give my uneducated opinion.

The tended belief is that miracles are out of the ordinary or divine, but is this really true? My biggest what if belief leans towards them actually being out of the ordinary. Perhaps these miraculous moments that occur so frequently are actually nature traits to nature, but they are still unknown phenomenons to science.

That amounts to faith in blind processes!

Do you think our future as a race will produce miraculous products? We are entering an era where possibly in the next few generations we will be able to produce our own foods as in meat, produce new bodily organs, and be able to rewrite the human genomes.

As a result of the miracle of human insight and creativity unparallelled in the history of this planet.

I think nature behaves in a way that is still very unknown to scientist as well as other enthusiasts.

True!

 

[vz71]

Sigh, what you guys are trying to do is attempt to win the argument by redefining ‘miracle’ to mean any act of God.

Then of course there’d be miracles everywhere because all creation itself is a ‘miracle’.

Needless to say, that was not the point I was trying to make.

Is God part of creation?
Wouldn’t any given act by God by definition be supernatural since it would involve actions started outside of creation?

 

[lemondiesel]

As a result of the miracle of human insight and creativity unparallelled in the history of this planet.

How are those miracles?

 

[OliviaRose]

Hey,

I believe miracles happen all the time.

My cousin was born months pre-mature. he was so little that his airway was not fully developed and he had to get a tracheostomy put in. This however was done by a reletaively new doctor and was not done well. He had so many complications and was constantly in and out of Great Ormond Street hospital and he had has his trachy in for 2 years and they did not ever expect it to come out. They had had so many attempts to get it out but every time he would be unable to breath and it would have to go back in. Despite this he kept positive and so did the family. I prayed and prayed for him and there were times that i was just so worried about him but last year he began to speak well, which meant that air was getting past the trachy so they tried again but kept the hole open so they could insert it again if he stopped breathing. He didnt and can now breath fully by himself. He is so much healthier and he has managed to start nursery and his trachy hole is healing well. I believed God did this for our family.

My family has truely whitnessed an amazing miracle. I am forever greatful for what God has done for my family and will never forget it.

 

[tonyrey]

Hey,

I believe miracles happen all the time.

My cousin was born months pre-mature. he was so little that his airway was not fully developed and he had to get a tracheostomy put in. This however was done by a reletaively new doctor and was not done well. He had so many complications and was constantly in and out of Great Ormond Street hospital and he had has his trachy in for 2 years and they did not ever expect it to come out. They had had so many attempts to get it out but every time he would be unable to breath and it would have to go back in. Despite this he kept positive and so did the family. I prayed and prayed for him and there were times that i was just so worried about him but last year he began to speak well, which meant that air was getting past the trachy so they tried again but kept the hole open so they could insert it again if he stopped breathing. He didnt and can now breath fully by himself. He is so much healthier and he has managed to start nursery and his trachy hole is healing well. I believed God did this for our family.

My family has truly witnessed an amazing miracle. I am forever grateful for what God has done for my family and will never forget it.

Welcome to the forum, Olivia - and thank you for a heartfelt testimony which fits in perfectly with my moment of celebration…

 

[tonyrey]

How are those miracles?

They are scientifically inexplicable and there is no sign of them ever being reduced to mathematical equations, chemical reactions or electrical currents…

 

[lemondiesel]

They are scientifically inexplicable and there is no sign of them ever being reduced to mathematical equations, chemical reactions or electrical currents…

There is still a vast amount of the brain (ultimately the Mind) that is still so unknown that saying something like that is, no offense, naive. I mean seriously, scientific focus on atoms and their nature is still very new and growing. I mean what is creativity? Are we talking the development of practical ideas? Or creativity like a painting? but then I ask, what criteria makes certain things creative?

Human insight is another matter. However, I will say that I am a huge advocate and greatly admire the Stoned Ape theory. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna#.22Stoned_Ape.22_theory_of_human_evolution) And if you have never taken such drugs, you can not relate. If you have, you would understand the feeling of ‘overall recognition’ felt during the ‘trip.’ Yet in the end, its your brain reacting to the chemicals released by such drugs.

But perhaps I was suppose to consume them. What if I never tried them, which would have never let me transcend boundaries, stereotypes, predispositions, etc… I am sure you’ve heard the quote, which is one my personal favorites, “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle”

 

[tonyrey]

They are scientifically inexplicable and there is no sign of them ever being reduced to mathematical equations, chemical reactions or electrical currents…

Only materialists assume the Mind is the brain at work. It is certainly naive to think atoms can explain **every **type of miracle! It endows them with a magical power for which there is not one jot of evidence in the history of science.

I mean what is creativity? Are we talking the development of practical ideas? Or creativity like a painting? but then I ask, what criteria makes certain things creative?

Creativity occurs in all the most significant aspects of life from the simplest cell to the most complex structure in the universe and the most advanced form of existence of which we are aware. It ranges from the struggle for survival to the pursuit and attainment of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love.

Human insight is another matter.

Precisely! It distinguishes us from every known form of existence.

However, I will say that I am a huge advocate and greatly admire the Stoned Ape theory. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence…uman_evolution) And if you have never taken such drugs, you can not relate. If you have, you would understand the feeling of ‘overall recognition’ felt during the ‘trip.’ Yet in the end, its your brain reacting to the chemicals released by such drugs.

The pleasures and delusions of artificial stimuli can never surpass the joy and fulfilment of genuine creativity because they transform persons into passive recipients rather than active agents who are making full use of their talents.

But perhaps I was suppose to consume them. What if I never tried them, which would have never let me transcend boundaries, stereotypes, predispositions, etc… I am sure you’ve heard the quote, which is one my personal favorites, “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle”

The miracle of existence implies that drugs are not only unnecessary substitutes for creativity but obstacles to the full appreciation of reality. Escapism is only a solution for those who lack imagination and originality!

 

[razredge]

I have defined a miracle in this context as “a suspension of the laws of nature”…

Yes, but then vz71s objection is meaningless.

You don’t seem to have faith in miracles!

Well, I don’t have faith that they occur regularly - I do believe in some miracles, like the resurrection.

Is God part of creation?
Wouldn’t any given act by God by definition be supernatural since it would involve actions started outside of creation?

Yes but this definition renders the term ‘miracle’ worthless because it can apply to absolutely everything so calling something a ‘miracle’ would not have any utility.

 

[vz71]

Yes, but then vz71s objection is meaningless.

How?
Wouldn’t any action upon creation by the creator (who is outside the creation) necessitate a suspension of normal natural laws?
I have yet to see a law governing the supernatural acting upon the natural, but that is what we would have.

Well, I don’t have faith that they occur regularly - I do believe in some miracles, like the resurrection.

Do you believe that God knew all before it happened?

Yes but this definition renders the term ‘miracle’ worthless because it can apply to absolutely everything so calling something a ‘miracle’ would not have any utility.

Or it would have the most utility.
Perhaps it is a necessary thing that we should step back and recognize what God has provided for us.
That a miracle happens all the time in no way reduces the immensity of the event.

 

[lemondiesel]

Only materialists assume the Mind is the brain at work. It is certainly naive to think atoms can explain **every **type of miracle! It endows them with a magical power for which there is not one jot of evidence in the history of science.

I assume the human Mind is the universe at work. We are just naive to think we can’t perform magical powers.

Creativity occurs in all the most significant aspects of life from the simplest cell to the most complex structure in the universe and the most advanced form of existence of which we are aware. It ranges from the struggle for survival to the pursuit and attainment of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love.

How does a simple cell perform creativity?

Precisely! It distinguishes us from every known form of existence.

Insight derives from language, and language is what distinguishes us from every other form.

The pleasures and delusions of artificial stimuli can never surpass the joy and fulfilment of genuine creativity because they transform persons into passive recipients rather than active agents who are making full use of their talents.

No, but artificial stimuli can influence similar feelings between many completely different people. In all seriousness, how do I know what you are feeling is actually the fulfillment of genuine creativity? You spend all day building a chair, and once completed you feel self fulfilled. Your creativity allowed you to fashion such an object. Then you invite me over to sit in it, which I do, but the entire thing falls apart. Your genuine creativity was based on own personal assumptions and what you wanted/expected from the chair.

youtube.com/watch?v=EQFVexsv2j4

The miracle of existence implies that drugs are not only unnecessary substitutes for creativity but obstacles to the full appreciation of reality. Escapism is only a solution for those who lack imagination and originality!

There would be no such thing as existence had humans never noticed. Perhaps you have many more years under your life belt and actually understand, but my ego simply does not agree. The history of Mankind shows us the heavy involvement of drugs such as marijuana and iowaska. My belief is that the interactions helped shaped the brain and ultimately the human mind.

Escapism is by far the most asinine term I have heard you use. Escapism isn’t for those who lack imagination or originality, or solely used to escape one’s own reality. It is a way to see the world through different glasses!!

Drugs involvement on human history is what I am writing my senior thesis on. I would honestly love to discuss this more, but this site doesn’t feel like the proper place.

 

[razredge]

How?
Wouldn’t any action upon creation by the creator (who is outside the creation) necessitate a suspension of normal natural laws?
I have yet to see a law governing the supernatural acting upon the natural, but that is what we would have.?QUOTE]
No, since the laws themselves and all reality would be termed supernatural and miraculous in the first place (under your definition). For the word miracle to be useful we need a definition like tonyrey gave where not every single act of God is termed a miracle (since God created all existence everything would be miraculous and so nothing would).

Do you believe that God knew all before it happened?

 

[vz71]

I don’t know for sure, it’s possible.

Well, if he didn’t, we can no longer claim God to be omniscient, can we?

Ah, I agree with that, but that was not my point

Differences in what we wish to call miraculous, but I do not believe a real significant difference in what it ultimately is.

Ultimately we are held here, with the rest of creation, by an act of pure will.