How often does your parish celebrate Vespers?

[chaldobyzantine]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

I was interested in this issue that is obviously a great point of discussion in most Eastern Catholic Churches. Many Byzantine Catholic parishes have abandoned these beautiful services, such as replacing the Great Vespers with a Liturgy on Saturday. Some churches only say the Great Doxology as matins before Divine Liturgy. Some don’t even say the Great Doxology. Morning Daily Matins are replaced with daily liturgies. I am not blaming it all on latinizations, but on the parishes themselves that individually abandon their religious heritage.

My main question is ‘how often does your parish celebrate vespers?’ because some churches only do them during holidays or the Great Lent. How often does your church celebrate matins as well?

God Bless you in this Christmas season.

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

At my Orthodox parish we have vespers every Saturday evening and also a vigil on the eve of the Great Feasts.

I have also heard that almost no Eastern Catholic parishes do Proskomedia. Do you find this to be the case?

 

[German_Melkite]

Depends on the week - but always on Saturday night . . . . and usually at least four other evenings per week.

In Milwaukee, we are blessed.

Example services this passed week:

Monday - none
Tuesday - DL at 8:30am V at 5:30p
Wed - DL at 8:30am V at 5:30p
Thur - DL at 8:30am V at 5:30p
Fri - DL at 8:30 am V at 5:30p
Sat - DL at 8:30a V at 5:30p
Sun - Orthos at 9:30am, DL at 10:30am

We are small and impoverished - but richly blessed.

 

[Seamus_L]

I’m not voting since I’m a RC, but a couple points I’d like to make. First, I’m not a big fan of the Saturday Vigil Mass in my own rite (as a substitute for Sunday mass) but realistically speaking it does come in handy for people with difficult work schedules. With that in mind along with the fact that EC’s have far fewer churches than RC’s, in most countries, I would certainly think that a 5 pm Saturday DL might be very appropriate for an EC who must work Sunday morning. An RC in a large diocese may have the opportunity to attend a 6am or 7pm Sunday mass, so in that sense, the 5pm mass-liturgy may actually serve an EC better than a RC.
Second, I think alot of these arguments are simply based on an attitude of "It's not Orthodox we shouldn't do it". Seriously, I've actually heard OIC types online argue that daily Holy Communion is a Roman thing, and we have a tradition in some places of not having Holy Communion every day. Is there any reason why Saturday Vespers and DL could not both be done the same day ?

 

[Shiranui117]

What I think may be an answer to your question, Seamus, is that Vespers, Matins and the DL all fulfill one’s Sunday obligation. In other words, if you only have time for Vespers, then don’t sweat it, that’ll get you covered. Same with Matins. The Divine Liturgy would obviously cover the obligation.

That being said, I’d like to answer the OP: Yes, we have Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy every week. I haven’t had the time to attend Vespers at my Byzantine Catholic parish, however, though last week I did attend Matins.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

I was interested in this issue that is obviously a great point of discussion in most Eastern Catholic Churches. Many Byzantine Catholic parishes have abandoned these beautiful services, such as replacing the Great Vespers with a Liturgy on Saturday. Some churches only say the Great Doxology as matins before Divine Liturgy. Some don’t even say the Great Doxology. Morning Daily Matins are replaced with daily liturgies. I am not blaming it all on latinizations, but on the parishes themselves that individually abandon their religious heritage.

My main question is ‘how often does your parish celebrate vespers?’ because some churches only do them during holidays or the Great Lent. How often does your church celebrate matins as well?

God Bless you in this Christmas season.

I am a Latin Catholic developing a great interest in and respect for Eastern Catholicism.

If an Eastern Catholic Church were to have the full round of daily services what would they be? Could you indicate either (a) what the service is, or (b) if you know of an equivalent liturgy in the Latin Church.

For example, the full round of services is the Latin Church would be as follows:
Holy Mass plus the Liturgy of the Hours (aka Divine Office):

• Office of Readings (aka Vigils or Matins)
• Morning Prayer (aka Lauds)
• Prayer during the Day: either Mid-morning (aka Terce), Midday (aka Sext) or Mid-afternoon (aka None)
• Evening Prayer (aka Vespers)
• Night Prayer (aka Compline)

(As an aside I prefer the ‘older’ names, e.g. Matins, Lauds, Terce, etc. but thought to be ‘accurate’ I’d give the Latin Church’s current official names.)

 

[Aramis]

On the “full” byzantine “traditional” schedule, you need a half dozen or more monks (for the psalter), and have the psalter being chanted throughout the day, broken for matins, 3rd, 6th, and 9th hours, vespers, and compline. You have sunday and holy day divine liturgies following matins. You have a saturday afternoon paralitugical devotion. Usually, a hieromonk and hierodeacon are needed, too.

A normative “full” parish praxis is Matins and vespers daily, Sunday and holy day divine liturgies following matins, confession follows saturday evening vespers.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’m not voting since I’m a RC, but a couple points I’d like to make. First, I’m not a big fan of the Saturday Vigil Mass in my own rite (as a substitute for Sunday mass) but realistically speaking it does come in handy for people with difficult work schedules. With that in mind along with the fact that EC’s have far fewer churches than RC’s, in most countries, I would certainly think that a 5 pm Saturday DL might be very appropriate for an EC who must work Sunday morning. An RC in a large diocese may have the opportunity to attend a 6am or 7pm Sunday mass, so in that sense, the 5pm mass-liturgy may actually serve an EC better than a RC.

As was said earlier, attendance at Great Vespers on Saturday Evening fills the “Sunday Obligation”. Having either a Saturday Evening Diving Liturgy or a Saturday Evening Vesperal Liturgy is a latinization.

I am a Latin Catholic developing a great interest in and respect for Eastern Catholicism.

If an Eastern Catholic Church were to have the full round of daily services what would they be? Could you indicate either (a) what the service is, or (b) if you know of an equivalent liturgy in the Latin Church.

For example, the full round of services is the Latin Church would be as follows:
Holy Mass plus the Liturgy of the Hours (aka Divine Office):

• Office of Readings (aka Vigils or Matins)
• Morning Prayer (aka Lauds)
• Prayer during the Day: either Mid-morning (aka Terce), Midday (aka Sext) or Mid-afternoon (aka None)
• Evening Prayer (aka Vespers)
• Night Prayer (aka Compline)

(As an aside I prefer the ‘older’ names, e.g. Matins, Lauds, Terce, etc. but thought to be ‘accurate’ I’d give the Latin Church’s current official names.)

As Aramis said, it takes many monks to do all the offices, some of the time in the monastery, it is my understanding that there are monks chanting the office of the hour while the others are at work and they take turns doing such a thing.

You have to remember that the Liturgy of the Hours (in the Roman Church) as we have it today is a reform and had greatly reduced the amount of time it takes to celebrate each office so that it is easier for the laity to do it.

 

[chaldobyzantine]

A normative “full” parish praxis is Matins and vespers daily, Sunday and holy day divine liturgies following matins, confession follows saturday evening vespers.

What greatly disappoints me is that some parishes at the minimum don’t even have matins before Sunday DL or Great Vespers on Saturday.

Some Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parishes don’t always have services going on in the weekdays, and that is understandable. But for the weekend/feastday services, I find it hard to believe any Melkite or Ruthenian parish is unable to have half an hour of matins before the liturgy, or replace Vesperal Divine Liturgies with a full Great Vespers service. That is one burden most Byzantine parishes have yet to deal with.

I understand Roman Catholics are greater in number and love to attend Eastern parishes, but to give them half the true Eastern Christian experience in favor of a “daily mass” is depriving them and ourselves of our religious heritage. There is also the mentality among parishes that one does not fulfill their “sunday obligation” without receiving the Holy Eucharist, and this belief should be discouraged to encourage the matins and vespers to be celebrated. Receiving the Eucharist is important, but even not doing so during Divine Liturgy fulfills a “sunday obligation”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I understand Roman Catholics are greater in number and love to attend Eastern parishes, but to give them half the true Eastern Christian experience in favor of a “daily mass” is depriving them and ourselves of our religious heritage. There is also the mentality among parishes that one does not fulfill their “sunday obligation” without receiving the Holy Eucharist, and this belief should be discouraged to encourage the matins and vespers to be celebrated. Receiving the Eucharist is important, but even not doing so during Divine Liturgy fulfills a “sunday obligation”

I think this influx of Roman Catholics may be part of the issue. Great Vespers on Saturday Evening fills the “Sunday Obligation” of the Byzantine Catholic but does not do so for the Roman Catholic. So a Roman Catholic may feel a burden to attend both services or if they can only attend Saturday Evening then and all the Byzantine Church offers is Great Vespers then they will have to attend their Roman Catholic parish to fill their obligation.

There is also a belief of many of our people that if they do not receive the Eucharist then they are not “getting anything” out of the worship. I have run into people who actually say this.

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

As was said earlier, attendance at Great Vespers on Saturday Evening fills the “Sunday Obligation”. Having either a Saturday Evening Diving Liturgy or a Saturday Evening Vesperal Liturgy is a latinization.

Having the concept of a Sunday Obligation, or some increment of time which requires satisfaction, i.e. Vespers ‘instead’ of Divine Liturgy, is a Latinization.

 

[Seamus_L]

I wouldn’t say people aren’t getting anything out of a worship service when they don’t receive the Eucharist, but it is always far better to receive than not to receive, providing of course that one is in a state of grace. People have a genuine desire to receive the Eucharist frequently, why encourage one group to not receive as often, simply because the practice originated in another tradition.

 

[dvdjs]

Having the concept of a Sunday Obligation, or some increment of time which requires satisfaction, i.e. Vespers ‘instead’ of Divine Liturgy, is a Latinization.

Does the three-strikes-and-your-out canon of the Eastern Church also count as “requiring satisfaction”? Is that a Latinization? I would suggest that anyone properly formed feels an obligation and a desire to participate in the liturgy as often as possible.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Having the concept of a Sunday Obligation, or some increment of time which requires satisfaction, i.e. Vespers ‘instead’ of Divine Liturgy, is a Latinization.

But having a Saturday Evening Divine Liturgy does not satisfy the “increment of time” idea you put forward and is therefore a latinization

The Byzantine parish should have Great Vespers Saturday Evening, Matins 30mins before the Divine Liturgy Sunday Morning, and then the Divine Liturgy. Those who, due to work (or some other legitimate reason (hopefully discussed with their spiritual father)), can not make the Sunday services would satisfy the “Sunday Obligation” which is found in the Eastern Code of Canon Law put out by Rome.

It could be argued that the idea of an “Obligation” is a latinization to begin with.

I wouldn’t say people aren’t getting anything out of a worship service when they don’t receive the Eucharist, but it is always far better to receive than not to receive, providing of course that one is in a state of grace. People have a genuine desire to receive the Eucharist frequently, why encourage one group to not receive as often, simply because the practice originated in another tradition.

So our Churches, Byzantine Churches, should change our traditions so that someone from another traditions may fulfill the obligations of their tradition?

 

[MarysGirls]

I voted ‘What are Vespers’

Seriously, I really don’t know. What are Vespers?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I voted ‘What are Vespers’

Seriously, I really don’t know. What are Vespers?

It is one of the Hours of Prayer. Part of what the Roman Church calls the Liturgy of the Hours and what the Eastern Churches calls the Divine Praises.

It is also called Evening Prayer in the Roman Church.

 

[dvdjs]

What greatly disappoints me is that some parishes at the minimum don’t even have matins before Sunday DL or Great Vespers on Saturday.

In the Ruthenian church, Vespers and Matins - apart from Holy Week service - fell into disuse in the US during the middle part of the past century. This phenomenon also occurred to some extent in some other Churches including Orthodox Churches. There were a variety of factor involved fundamentally, the question was: what aspects of traditions from the old countries would be preserved, first, as we became established, then as we became enculturated in the US. It is fair to say that too much was lost. But these services are making a comeback. For example, in the Phoenix Eparchy about half of the parishes have Saturday great vespers; twenty years ago, I think none of the parishes had these services. This restoration was enormously facilitated in recent years by publications from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute: the prostopinije for Matins is not simple.

Some Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parishes don’t always have services going on in the weekdays, and that is understandable.

I don’t understand it. Scheeman complained some fifty years ago that Orthodox Churches in America were becoming weekend-only operations. He objected to it. I think that some now think that the complete lack of weekday services is Eastern tradition. That is no more true that the lack of Sunday Matins and Vespers.

 

[Seamus_L]

I don’t know how many EC Churches have a 4 or 5 pm Saturday liturgy, but I know there are some, and I have to think that those who receive the Eucharist on Saturdays (perhaps when it may be there only chance for the week) are likely to be quite unhappy were it to be eliminated.

 

[chaldobyzantine]

Does the three-strikes-and-your-out canon of the Eastern Church also count as “requiring satisfaction”? Is that a Latinization? I would suggest that anyone properly formed feels an obligation and a desire to participate in the liturgy as often as possible.

With all due respect, what do you mean 3 strikes and you’re out canon? I doubt baseball has integrated itself into our religion…yet.

I always put the words “sunday obligation” in quotations to indicate the fact that it is not a belief of the Eastern Churches. It is up to the individual to fulfill an obligation that they feel themselves to participate in offering their praise to the Lord. If a Christian feels like they are being obligated or forced to go every Sunday (or week), then the faith of that person is out of fear of committing a sin, not out of love or personal desire to worship the Lord. Personally, I think this belief of “sunday obligation” is one of the many reasons for the existence of lapsed catholics.

 

[chaldobyzantine]

I voted ‘What are Vespers’

Seriously, I really don’t know. What are Vespers?

I am sorry I did not post this earlier. The Great Vespers are a prayer service in the Eastern Churches that is not a liturgy. They are usually or supposed to be performed every Saturday and day before a feast.

These links should help.
Vespers
saintelias.com/ca/etiquette/vespers.php
cathedral.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/gvespers
goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/vespers
youtube.com/watch?v=bkti1AIjcRo
youtube.com/watch?v=fbAI6BK-M6Q
goarch.org/multimedia/audio/vespers

Matins/Orthros
onlineliturgy.com/matins.html
youtube.com/watch?v=EaU_8jzpqOo
antiochian.org/1136996312
youtube.com/watch?v=z_W3qTPtiP0

HAPPY SAINT BARBARA DAY!