How often does your parish celebrate Vespers?

[pipper]

Here we have Vespers on Sat followed by confessions. On Sunday we have Mattins (Orthros) followed by Divine Liturgy.

 

[chaldobyzantine]

In the Ruthenian church, Vespers and Matins - apart from Holy Week service - fell into disuse in the US during the middle part of the past century. This phenomenon also occurred to some extent in some other Churches including Orthodox Churches. There were a variety of factor involved fundamentally, the question was: what aspects of traditions from the old countries would be preserved, first, as we became established, then as we became enculturated in the US. It is fair to say that too much was lost. But these services are making a comeback. For example, in the Phoenix Eparchy about half of the parishes have Saturday great vespers; twenty years ago, I think none of the parishes had these services. This restoration was enormously facilitated in recent years by publications from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute: the prostopinije for Matins is not simple.

It is good to know the Eparchy of Phoenix is restoring the services, my local Eparcy of Parma parish still doesn’t have it yet, to my disappointment.

I don’t understand it. Scheeman complained some fifty years ago that Orthodox Churches in America were becoming weekend-only operations. He objected to it. I think that some now think that the complete lack of weekday services is Eastern tradition. That is no more true that the lack of Sunday Matins and Vespers.

I agree that it is very regrettable that there are not weekdays services such as matins or weekday celebrations of Feast Days, which are postponed until the following Sunday. Priests are also busy with their families, some priests have jobs teaching at local seminaries or universities, and are unable to celebrate weekday services for whatever reason. In any case, there is the Divine Service (also called the Canonical Hours or Divine Office) in the Eastern church that do not always require priests, and people who want to pray in church should take advantage of that.

 

[ciero]

But having a Saturday Evening Divine Liturgy does not satisfy the “increment of time” idea you put forward and is therefore a latinization

The Byzantine parish should have Great Vespers Saturday Evening, Matins 30mins before the Divine Liturgy Sunday Morning, and then the Divine Liturgy. Those who, due to work (or some other legitimate reason (hopefully discussed with their spiritual father)), can not make the Sunday services would satisfy the “Sunday Obligation” which is found in the Eastern Code of Canon Law put out by Rome.

It could be argued that the idea of an “Obligation” is a latinization to begin with.

So our Churches, Byzantine Churches, should change our traditions so that someone from another traditions may fulfill the obligations of their tradition?

Sunday Mattins in 30 min? WOW… in my experience Sunday Mattins takes a minimum of 2 hours.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Sunday Mattins in 30 min? WOW… in my experience Sunday Mattins takes a minimum of 2 hours.

Matin (Othos) before the Divine Liturgy is very abbreviated, it is my understanding that a full Matins is up to3 hours.

Which, if you are an “orthodox in communion with Rome”, I find it hard that you are not aware of this practice. Unless you happen to be in an area where Matins (Orthos) is not offered before the Divine Liturgy.

 

[ciero]

I don’t know how many EC Churches have a 4 or 5 pm Saturday liturgy, but I know there are some, and I have to think that those who receive the Eucharist on Saturdays (perhaps when it may be there only chance for the week) are likely to be quite unhappy were it to be eliminated.

I wonder if those folks who are receiving the Eucharist in the evening are observing any kind of Eucharistic fast. (like from midnight the night before?)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I don’t know how many EC Churches have a 4 or 5 pm Saturday liturgy, but I know there are some, and I have to think that those who receive the Eucharist on Saturdays (perhaps when it may be there only chance for the week) are likely to be quite unhappy were it to be eliminated.

I am sorry but I just do not buy this as a excuse to continue a latinization.

What did people do before such a latinization entered our Churches?

May I ask, are you a Byzantine or a Roman?

 

[ciero]

I am sorry but I just do not buy this as a excuse to continue a latinization.

What did people do before such a latinization entered our Churches?

May I ask, are you a Byzantine or a Roman?

What did the Latins do before this abuse entered into the life of the Latin church?

 

[ciero]

Matin (Othos) before the Divine Liturgy is very abbreviated, it is my understanding that a full Matins is up to3 hours.

Which, if you are an “orthodox in communion with Rome”, I find it hard that you are not aware of this practice. Unless you happen to be in an area where Matins (Orthos) is not offered before the Divine Liturgy.

I am one of the cantors in my parish where we do serve Sunday Orthros. We do abbreviate the canons (only take 2 instead of all 4 called for on Sunday), this takes us about 2 hours give or take 10 min or so. I have never seen a 30 min Orthros, it must be really abbreviated.
Even a weekday Orthros takes about 90 min or so.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What did the Latins do before this abuse entered into the life of the Latin church?

You are aware that this is the Eastern Catholic forum and that we are talking about the latinization of the Eastern Church of replacing Saturday night Great Vespers with a Divine Liturgy.

So I do not understand what your question has to do with this. Vespers has never fulfilled the “obligation” for a Latin Catholic and I am not aware of a tradition in the Latin Church of communal celebration of Vespers on Saturday evenings in the parishes of the Latin Church. So the Latin Church allowing the celebration of a Mass on Saturday evening (which is canonically Sunday) so that they can fulfill their “obligations” is what they have done.

Just because they have done this does not mean that Eastern Christians should toss out their traditions and replace them with the Latin Church’s traditions.

 

[ciero]

You are aware that this is the Eastern Catholic forum and that we are talking about the latinization of the Eastern Church of replacing Saturday night Great Vespers with a Divine Liturgy.

So I do not understand what your question has to do with this. Vespers has never fulfilled the “obligation” for a Latin Catholic and I am not aware of a tradition in the Latin Church of communal celebration of Vespers on Saturday evenings in the parishes of the Latin Church. So the Latin Church allowing the celebration of a Mass on Saturday evening (which is canonically Sunday) so that they can fulfill their “obligations” is what they have done.

Just because they have done this does not mean that Eastern Christians should toss out their traditions and replace them with the Latin Church’s traditions.

Bro David…I agree fully. my question is what did a Latin do for mass before the church allowed for Saturday evening mass in the Latin church. This is a very new thing…allowing for a Saturday evening mass …about 30 years or so.

And for the record the Latin parish where I grew up did serve Vespers on Saturday and Sunday evenings…now they just serve Vespers on Sunday evening. And this parish wasnt even served by religious…regular ole secular priests.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Bro David…I agree fully. my question is what did a Latin do for mass before the church allowed for Saturday evening mass in the Latin church. This is a very new thing…allowing for a Saturday evening mass …about 30 years or so.

And for the record the Latin parish where I grew up did serve Vespers on Saturday and Sunday evenings…now they just serve Vespers on Sunday evening. And this parish wasnt even served by religious…regular ole secular priests.

Thank you for educating me in this.

I am aware that there are some parishes that do Vespers on Sunday evenings.

I am not aware of what the Latin Church did prior to the current way things are but I do know that Saturday Vespers never fulfilled their “obligation”. Maybe those who could not make it on Sundays were dispensed by their pastors?

 

[ciero]

Thank you for educating me in this.

I am aware that there are some parishes that do Vespers on Sunday evenings.

I am not aware of what the Latin Church did prior to the current way things are but I do know that Saturday Vespers never fulfilled their “obligation”. Maybe those who could not make it on Sundays were dispensed by their pastors?

Can you tell me what is done in a 30 min Orthros? Thanks. I just cant wrap my head around that one…30 min Orthros, cant wait to chat with the other cantors about that one!

 

[Seamus_L]

As I said in my first post, I’m not too fond of the vigil mass in my own rite, and it is a rather new development. Perhaps it would be better to refer to it as a modernization rather than a Latinization, as I see a rather disturbing trend among the online EC community that now often refers to anything they see as negative in their church as a Latinization. The new revised divine liturgy in the Ruthenian church is a good example of this.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Can you tell me what is done in a 30 min Orthros? Thanks. I just cant wrap my head around that one…30 min Orthros, cant wait to chat with the other cantors about that one!

Maybe it is 45 minutes or an hour, the two parishes that I am familiar with (Melkite back home and Ruthenian where I currently live) do not post the times of the start of Matins (Orthos) in their bulletin, so I could be off a bit.

But I do not appreciate the mocking tone so I will be invoking the ignore feature.

Thanks.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As I said in my first post, I’m not too fond of the vigil mass in my own rite, and it is a rather new development. Perhaps it would be better to refer to it as a modernization rather than a Latinization, as I see a rather disturbing trend among the online EC community that now often refers to anything they see as negative in their church as a Latinization. The new revised divine liturgy in the Ruthenian church is a good example of this.

It may be a modernization in your Church but it is a latinization in ours as it is done as a copy of your Church’s practice.

But that is besides the point. We Eastern Catholics have a way for the faithful to fulfill their “obligation” out side of attendance at a Sunday Divine Liturgy (and as far as I am aware this is a long standing tradition that has been in practice with the approval of one spiritual father) so how would you go about allowing someone in your Church fulfill their “obligation” without attendance at a Sunday Mass?

Really the Saturday Evening Mass is not properly a “vigil” Mass as it is on (according to Church law) Sunday, so we may call it a “Saturday Evening Mass” but it is really a Sunday Mass.

Maybe you could argue this a byzantinazition of the Roman Church, that is making an allowance for filling the “obligation” on a Saturday evening?

 

[Seamus_L]

How common is the Saturday divine liturgy in place of vespers and when did it begin ?

 

[ciero]

How common is the Saturday divine liturgy in place of vespers and when did it begin ?

It is very common among the Ruthenians, I know of at least 2 parishes that used to have Saturday evening Great Vespers that were very well attended, with the people coming back for Liturgy the next morning, the bishop told the pastor to implement the Vesper/Liturgy so that people could have communion. Attendance at these services dropped to next to nothing.

Now before the bishop got involved you had people attending 2 services and actually praying the services of the church, go figure.

Maybe its because they dont take a collection at Vespers.

One of these parishes now have the people getting together and praying Vespers in someones home on Saturday evenings and at least one other night during the week. So I guess something good has come out of it.

 

[ciero]

Maybe it is 45 minutes or an hour, the two parishes that I am familiar with (Melkite back home and Ruthenian where I currently live) do not post the times of the start of Matins (Orthos) in their bulletin, so I could be off a bit.

But I do not appreciate the mocking tone so I will be invoking the ignore feature.

Thanks.

No mocking intended Br. David, just cant understand how its done and wanted to know how it is done. The Melkite parish I often attend does do Orthros in a little over an hour, the sing the irmos of the canon but none of the verses.

 

[Seamus_L]

So, it would appear your problem is not with any particular Roman Catholics, but rather the decisions of your own Byzantine bishop.

 

[ciero]

So, it would appear your problem is not with any particular Roman Catholics, but rather the decisions of your own Byzantine bishop.

The problem as I see it Seamus is this…The bishops (especially the Ruthenians) see themselves as second class catholics, and continually ape the Latins in order to prove how catholic they are. So for the most part the Latinizations are brought in by our own bishops, but they are Latinizations just the same. This goes for the new Ruthenian Divine Liturgy as well.