I can only imagine the responses from clergy and parishioners in Orthodox Churches if the Bishops decided to replace Saturday Great Vespers with a Vesperal Liturgy or a Divine Liturgy.
**oca.org/vespers-with-divine-liturgy.html
If they have more than one Altar…
Isn’t this one altar, one Divine Liturgy rule only used by the Orthodox? Our UGCC parish only has one altar but there is back-to-back DLs, one in English, one in Ukrainian
HOGWASH! I have been to St Nicholas Cathedral on MANY occasions and never was it more then 1/4 full. Multiple liturgies on Sunday is a matter of convenience, not of practicality.
The one Divine Liturgy per alter is part of BYZANTINE TRADITION, BYZANTINE TRADITION is neither Catholic nor Orthodox it is BYZANTINE TRADITION.
I am in no way saying that receiving the Eucharist often is a bad thing in and of itself, but when ones ENTIRE spirituality becomes nothing more then receiving the Eucharist especially at the expense of the other services the church is in trouble.
ciero;7336908:
I agree that what I stated earlier is the goal we must aim for. I get very discouraged when I see priests and parishes aiming for this goal only to be shot down by the bishop. When parishes already have Saturday Great Vespers and a good turn out for the service to be told to discontinue Vespers and replace it with Liturgy just makes my blood boil.
I have seen it happen over and over.
On a more positive note I have also seen parishes where the priest started praying Vespers on his own, or with 1 or 2 interested people and gradually this grew into a regular congregation coming week after week to pray the service.
Maybe dusting off his sandals is being a good shepherd. And even if Bishop Williams assessment was correct and some people would prefer a Liturgy, is that reason enough to take Vespers away from the rest of the church? I wish I had all the answers, but I dont. In my opinion one cant go wrong by sticking to the time proven traditions handed down to us by the church.
Sorry for the rambling!
Ours is a matter of language. Although most of whom attend the English DL are Ukrainians who can speak Ukrainian and thus can attend the Ukrainian DL, the English DL is there for those like myself who would otherwise not know Ukrainian.
dvdjs;7337062:
I agree with most everything you say, with a caveat on the last point.I agree that what I stated earlier is the goal we must aim for. I get very discouraged when I see priests and parishes aiming for this goal only to be shot down by the bishop. When parishes already have Saturday Great Vespers and a good turn out for the service to be told to discontinue Vespers and replace it with Liturgy just makes my blood boil.
I have seen it happen over and over.
On a more positive note I have also seen parishes where the priest started praying Vespers on his own, or with 1 or 2 interested people and gradually this grew into a regular congregation coming week after week to pray the service.
Maybe dusting off his sandals is being a good shepherd. And even if Bishop Williams assessment was correct and some people would prefer a Liturgy, is that reason enough to take Vespers away from the rest of the church? I wish I had all the answers, but I dont. In my opinion one cant go wrong by sticking to the time proven traditions handed down to us by the church.
Sorry for the rambling!
We must work to preserve Tradition, and also think hard about tradition. But if we want a keep a white fencepost, then we must think about how to maintain one in this time tried and true procedures from other times and places may not be so effective in our time. We have seen a torrent of changed circumstances in the last century plus, after a millenium or two that were essentially comparatively static. Approaches to implementing Tradition that worked 150 years ago may not be effective in our time.
We have every opportunity to muck things up while trying to make things better,of course. I like to give the Bishops and clergy the benefit of the doubt on their motives, even if I disagree with some of their actions. And I am not persuaded that something is terribly wrong if it is not traditional or when steps toward restoring Traditions are a bit modest. In any case, it seems that there has been progress in the implementation of vespers under Bishop Gerald.
As for the “Latin mindset”, I like use ACROD as a barometer. They have no reason at all to gravitate to practices just because they are Catholic. But if you watch the services from their Cathedral on their website, you will see that they remain very much like ours. And last Sunday the the Irmoi of the Canon of Matins - I think the Katavsia of the Entrance Matins, ie the Nativity Matins - (followed by some para-liturgical hymns) was taken before the liturgy. Ten minutes from Matins. Not everything that one could want, but a step forward.
acrod.org/organizations/cathedral/live/servicesarchivescathedral
We have two antimensions, so in the event that two Divine Liturgies are needed in a day Father can switch them (but only one Divine Liturgy is curently on Sunday midnight to midnight). Technically speaking though, Saturday evening Divine Liturgy (anticipation) plus Sunday morning Divine Liturgy is in the same day isn’t it?
Maybe this is what they do for parishes that celebrate multiple Liturgies?
That may be the case now at St Nicholas, but they used to have 1500 families in 1969 I believe, and are now down to 600 from what I've read. I know there were alot more people in the mid 90's when I went there than what I've seen recently. 40 years ago a single liturgy would not have sufficed.Sad story. Our Eparchy recently sold a parish because they had to close it down when it wasn’t sustainable. I think there should be a greater push by Eastern Parishes to teach the Eastern praxis among non-Catholics and get converts.
They did this for years at my parish (dual antimensions) but no longer.
Wouldn’t this cause a culture clash? I know it would be if you try to introduce an English Mass in a “Polish” church.
No. The use of the vernacular is common in Eastern Churches. There is a good reason why they started using English, at least in North America. Its the langauge of the land and the language of the children born here.