How or why?

[jericho777]

Jesus.

I stand corrected, Paul was second.

**Certainly not **the Church. When the Church made its decision, Paul bowed to the Church’s authority. Paul wasn’t even sure what to do about the Judaizers and that’s why he went to the Council of Jerusalem in the first place - to get a definite answer.

Read your Bible (Acts 15:1-3).

Then why did the council have to convene to decide on the issue if they already believed in grace apart from works? Remember the question was about circumcision being necessary for salvation.

 

[elvisman]

Hold onto your britches there I fully embrace the deity of Christ. You are assuming that the doctrine God gave Paul was then subject to church approval. That’s prepostertous. I see the church as the body of Christ not an organization.

You referred to the Church as the “lesser” when speaking of the doctrines that Paul was taught by God.
It is abundantly clear by your own statements against the Church that you do not have a clue as to what the Church is. It is the Mystical Body of none other that Christ himself.

Paul was taught directly by God - and so were the other 12 Apostles.
John 6:45:
"It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me."

 

[elvisman]

I stand corrected, Paul was second.

Then why did the council have to convene to decide on the issue if they already believed in grace apart from works? Remember the question was about circumcision being necessary for salvation.

**I have a *better *question for you since you believe that Paul rejected Church authority - which is a ludicrous claim. **
**Why didn’t Paul make the decision on his own about the Judaizers? **
Why did he have to go to the Church for a decision?

 

[jericho777]

You referred to the Church as the "lesser" when speaking of the doctrines that Paul was taught by God.
It is abundantly clear by your own statements against the Church that you do not have a clue as to what the Church is. It is the Mystical Body of none other that Christ himself.

Paul was taught directly by God - and so were the other 12 Apostles.
John 6:45:
"It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me."

Do you believe the doctrine God gave Paul was then subject to church approval?

 

[jericho777]

**I have a *better ***question for you since you believe that Paul rejected Church authority - which is a ludicrous claim.
Why didn’t Paul make the decision on his own about the Judaizers?
Why did he have to go to the Church for a decision?

I do not believe Paul rejected church authority per se. He was an equal part of the church as the apostles. He certainly had equal authotity as his call was directly from God alone. When you read the Acts 15 account you see Paul was on a mission. The church sent him to the council. The church he founded. He was on a FYI mission to demonstrate first hand what God did for the gentiles apart from the law.

 

[PRmerger]

I stand corrected, Paul was second.

Jericho, how was it that Paul heard of “grace apart from works of the law” paradigm, if he never met Jesus?

 

[jericho777]

Jericho, how was it that Paul heard of “grace apart from works of the law” paradigm, if he never met Jesus?

Good evening PR, I don’t recall saying “Paul never met Jesus.”

He met Him on the road to Demascus. And was then directly called by and taught God his doctrines.

Romans 3:21-23 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,i through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 

[fbl9]

I stand corrected, Paul was second.

Then why did the council have to convene to decide on the issue if they already believed in grace apart from works? Remember the question was about circumcision being necessary for salvation.

Some came down from Judea, not Jerusalem, who gave defense against those that came down from Judea ? acts 15:1-2 St.Paul and Barnabas who was sent with St.Paul from the church in Antioch.(Acts13:1-4)
Who went to Jersalem? St.Paul and Barnabas and who else why certain others. Why?
To take this question up before those in Jersalem.verse 5 tells us who these certain others were.

It is clear that St.Paul was regarded as having no authoritive powers by continuing to read the rest of chapter 15.IOW St.Paul had no authority to teach a different message.

 

[jericho777]

Some came down from Judea, not Jerusalem, who gave defense against those that came down from Judea ? acts 15:1-2 St.Paul and Barnabas who was sent with St.Paul from the church in Antioch.(Acts13:1-4)
Who went to Jersalem? St.Paul and Barnabas and who else why certain others. Why?
To take this question up before those in Jersalem.verse 5 tells us who these certain others were.

It is clear that St.Paul was regarded as having no authoritive powers by continuing to read the rest of chapter 15.IOW St.Paul had no authority to teach a different message.

Yes you are correct. However there were Pharisees on the council who held the same doctrine. Paul and Barnabas were on a tear V2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.

As I have said before Paul got his doctrine directly from God so why would he compromise and deny what God had already revealed to him? I would suspect the Lord used this situation to bring this doctrine to the rest of the church. The bible doesn’t reveal who the certain others were but I would speculate they were believers.

Paul was firm in his doctrine whereas the council was not aware of it as yet. If God directly taught you a doctrine would you deny it in favor of the word of men?

 

[PRmerger]

Good evening PR, I don’t recall saying “Paul never met Jesus.”

I apologize for being confusing. I should have said if Paul never heard Jesus preach. Truly he “met” Jesus on the road to Damascus. But they did not discuss doctrines, eh?

How was it he knew that we are saved by grace apart from works of the law? That is, how did God teach this to Paul?

 

[fbl9]

Yes you are correct. However there were Pharisees on the council who held the same doctrine. Paul and Barnabas were on a tear V2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.

As I have said before Paul got his doctrine directly from God so why would he compromise and deny what God had already revealed to him? I would suspect the Lord used this situation to bring this doctrine to the rest of the church. The bible doesn’t reveal who the certain others were but I would speculate they were believers.

Paul was firm in his doctrine whereas the council was not aware of it as yet. If God directly taught you a doctrine would you deny it in favor of the word of men?

Those Pharisees were not on the council. It does not state they were on the council…They came with St.Paul and Barnabas, the Pharisees were getting down to the purpose of the trip to Jerusalem.

Can you provide proof of this “new” doctrine being taught by St.Paul to be taught only by him?

How would i be sure that this doctrine came from God? Why i would check with the Church.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes you are correct. However there were Pharisees on the council who held the same doctrine. Paul and Barnabas were on a tear V2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.

As I have said before Paul got his doctrine directly from God so why would he compromise and deny what God had already revealed to him? I would suspect the Lord used this situation to bring this doctrine to the rest of the church. The bible doesn’t reveal who the certain others were but I would speculate they were believers.

Paul was firm in his doctrine whereas the council was not aware of it as yet. If God directly taught you a doctrine would you deny it in favor of the word of men?

There were Pharisees on the council? Where is your historical evidence supporting the claim? No offense,but where do you get your information?

 

[elvisman]

Do you believe the doctrine God gave Paul was then subject to church approval?

That is like asking whether I believe in Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus.
**You keep trying to pit God against himself and you cannot. The Church is the FULLNESS of christ (Eph. 1:22-23). **
You cannot turn the doctrines that Paul taught against the Church and Paul would be the FIRST one to tell you that. You know why? Because Jesus himself told Paul this in Acts 9:4-5:
**He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" **
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

---

Paul was persecuting the CHURCH and yet, what did Jesus say? He said, Why are you persecuting ME?
Jesus and his Church are INSEPERABLE because we are his BODY.

I do not believe Paul rejected church authority per se. He was an equal part of the church as the apostles. He certainly had equal authotity as his call was directly from God alone. When you read the Acts 15 account you see Paul was on a mission. The church sent him to the council. The church he founded. He was on a FYI mission to demonstrate first hand what God did for the gentiles apart from the law.

**The Church "HE founded"?? **
JESUS CHRIST founded the Church (Matt. 16:18-19) - not Paul. You are getting dangerously close to elevating Paul into a God.

CAREFUL, friend.

 

[Nicea325]

That is like asking whether I believe in Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus.
You keep trying to pit God against himself and you cannot. The Church is the FULLNESS of christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
You cannot turn the doctrines that Paul taught against the Church and Paul would be the FIRST one to tell you that. You know why? Because Jesus himself told Paul this in Acts 9:4-5:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

---

Paul was persecuting the CHURCH and yet, what did Jesus say? He said, Why are you persecuting ME?
Jesus and his Church are INSEPERABLE because we are his BODY.

The Church "HE founded"??
JESUS CHRIST founded the Church (Matt. 16:18-19) - not Paul. You are getting dangerously close to elevating Paul into a God.

CAREFUL, friend.

Likewise,jericho777 seems to protray St.Paul as some sort of modern day fundamentalist who started his own church. In other words, he seems to believe Paul was a first century non-Catholic out doing his own thing apart from Jesus Christ Church.

 

[elvisman]

Likewise,jericho777 seems to protray St.Paul as some sort of modern day fundamentalist who started his own church. In other words, he seems to believe Paul was a first century non-Catholic out doing his own thing apart from Jesus Christ Church.

Exactly - which we know to be false simply by reading what he himself wrote about the Church (1 Tim. 3:15, Eph. 1:22-23, 2 Thess 2:15).

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Likewise,jericho777 seems to protray St.Paul as some sort of modern day fundamentalist who started his own church. In other words, he seems to believe Paul was a first century non-Catholic out doing his own thing apart from Jesus Christ Church.

Exactly - which we know to be false simply by reading what he himself wrote about the Church (1 Tim. 3:15, Eph. 1:22-23, 2 Thess 2:15).

Geee…no wonder there exists thousands of different denominations out there. Look at what happens when people practice poor Biblical exegesis and poor theology. Chaos and confusion…uch:

 

[jericho777]

I apologize for being confusing. I should have said if Paul never heard Jesus preach. Truly he “met” Jesus on the road to Damascus. But they did not discuss doctrines, eh?

How was it he knew that we are saved by grace apart from works of the law? That is, how did God teach this to Paul?

No problem grace to you.

I don’t know the mode all Paul says is God gave him his doctrines.

 

[jericho777]

Those Pharisees were not on the council. It does not state they were on the council…They came with St.Paul and Barnabas, the Pharisees were getting down to the purpose of the trip to Jerusalem.

Can you provide proof of this “new” doctrine being taught by St.Paul to be taught only by him?

How would i be sure that this doctrine came from God? Why i would check with the Church.

They were part of the church in Jerusalem. Pharisees we a powerful bunch so it would only make sense they would be part of the council.

The council had no knowledge of this doctrine otherwise why would they have to meet to decide. Paul claims he was taught directly by God. Again if the council had to decide on the doctrine that Paul was already teaching then obviously they were not teaching it themselves.

If God knocked you off your horse and told you what He had planned for your life then brought it to pass then I think you would believe. Paul and Barnabas were fully convinced of their doctrine as by their tenacious defense of it. Do you think the church could have over turned a doctrine of God? I say no! Obviously God used this event to further extend and confirm the gospel or grace apart from works of the law.

 

[jericho777]

There were Pharisees on the council? Where is your historical evidence supporting the claim? No offense,but where do you get your information?

Was Paul not a Pharisee? There were Pharisees who believed in Jesus when He was alive. Do you think Pharisees were incapable of becoming believers?

 

[jericho777]

That is like asking whether I believe in Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus.
You keep trying to pit God against himself and you cannot. The Church is the FULLNESS of christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
You cannot turn the doctrines that Paul taught against the Church and Paul would be the FIRST one to tell you that. You know why? Because Jesus himself told Paul this in Acts 9:4-5:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

---

Paul was persecuting the CHURCH and yet, what did Jesus say? He said, Why are you persecuting ME?
Jesus and his Church are INSEPERABLE because we are his BODY.

The Church "HE founded"??
JESUS CHRIST founded the Church (Matt. 16:18-19) - not Paul. You are getting dangerously close to elevating Paul into a God.

CAREFUL, friend.

Paul was persecuting people men, women and children not an organization.

The church is the body of Christ. I don’t see it in the light that you do as some how being equal to God.