How Satan came to this world?

[Bahman]

Eve’s temptation happened after the devil.was sent to earth. The so.called fruit was not evil, in fact you have to forget about the fruit and eating it because most likely it wasn’t even a fruit, as the famous fruit is figurative (I recommend you to read the writing of JPII) the point of the story is that God gave an order to humans and humans disobeyed that order which still happens today.

Why should he leave and buy fire? Why Hitler decided to get involved into a world.war knowing that no one in the history of the world.has been able to defeat Russia and knowing that the USA had the most powerful army in the world? Why he didn’t stay in peace governing over Germany and instead buy fire? Moreover why do humans still in sinning knowing that there is a God? Don’t you think the logical thing for humans is stay in peace follow God and not sin? Then why people still insist in doing evil, wars and sin when they know they are buying fire with it? Because they all including the devil believe they are invincible and greater than God.

To be honest, I don’t understand your reasoning. I don’t understand what is the relationship between WWII and rebellion of Satan.

 

[marymary1975]

What do you mean with “as the result of our disobedience”? I mean how disobedience could result to having evil inside?

How devil could put temptation in our mind when our mind was good? I mean, we either have temptation toward fruit or not. If yes, this means that we have evil inside otherwise the act temptation is quite meaningless process since we are good and have no feeling/understand of what temptation mean.

Example, suppose that you live in a world that one have no idea about sin/evil whatsoever, simply state of mind of Adam and Eve. Then suppose that devil comes to you (Adam) and tempt you to lie to eve. What would be your response?: “What a hell is a lie?” Etc.

I read your reasoning and found it non-convincing.

Why God give them such a power and liberty so that they are dominant to us, knowing that what they do is evil which is against God wish?

Again the devil doesn’t put temptation into your mind, that is not right. The devil lies. Imagine you have a three or four year old child (which would be exactly in the same state of mind as Adam and eve before the fall) and you have said to that child don’t eat anything that is given to you by strangers, then a stranger comes to that three or four year old child with a candy that has poison in it, the stranger wants the child to eat the candy and you say to the child I have a delicious candy for you that is going to make you feel very happy, your parent is not right if you eat this candy you are going to have lots of fun and toys. Do you think the two year is going to answer to the stranger “what the help is a lie”? Of course not! The child either obeys the parent or falls for the lie and gets the candy, (which iS commonly what happens and exactly what happened with Adam and eve. The fact that your mind is good iS irrelevant in this case, as in the case of a child, the child is.innocent. the issue is obedience, are you going to obey your parent or.not. do you think that two years old are inherently evils because parents tell them no and they disobey?

God didn’t "give them"power onto us. God gave us the power to say no to them. Against if you fall is because your own choice and because you decided to. Don’t.blame.God. God is very clear saying that we have a duty to obey him.and stay away from.the devil and his lies. If we insist in following him is our fault. The devil has no gun to point at your head to force you to do anything. As I said, the devil is completely tied. If you decide to put your leg next to him and say hey come and bite me that is your decision.

 

[marymary1975]

You already mentioned that they are dominant to us.

I haven’t said they’re dominant. They are not dominant. They are a superior creature and precisely because they are superior God sent his son to earth and gave us his commandments and the bible so we won’t fall for their lies. They are smarter and know.better than us so they can confuses us, and God gives us his word so we are aware of the truth and have the power to say no to them.

 

[marymary1975]

To be honest, I don’t understand your reasoning. I don’t understand what is the relationship between WWII and rebellion of Satan.

I am going to try to be more clear. You are saying you don’t see how the devil could have rebelled against God basically because he should have known better (why should he leave and buy fire). What I am trying to tell you is that is not uncommon for creatures to do things despite the fact that they should have known better. Remember, the devil is a creature, he is NOT God. Only God is perfect and only God is omnipotent. Within the creatures angels are superior to humans, which makes the devil superior to humans but that does not make them equal to God. They are inferior to God. All creatures can do certain acts despite the fact that they should have known better. Humans constantly make mistakes because they should have known better …but they do it regardless. That is why my comparisson to WWIi. I am giving you an example of a creature who should have know very well the outcome of his action, but he just didn’t care. He wanted what he wanted and he wanted and he went and did it. The fact that a creature should have known better doesn’t preclude them from an action. Just like humans where some humans make better decisions than others and where some humans actually know better than others, some angels do know better than others. St Michael and his angels knew better than the devil. He knew it was pointless to rebel against God and he knew he was on the right side so he obeyed God and stood by him. The devil on the other hand, while he should have known as good as st Michael, the reality is, he didn’t know as good as st michael (again just like humans) . Some creatures know.better than others and the devil and st Michael are great examples of this.

 

[Back2Church]

I mean in general and I believe a part of our evil actions is the result of our evils.

Uh… What? Is that a typo?

I am aware of that story, but Eve could not have been tempted by serpent/Satan before Satan’s fall. So everything in fact is related to Satan’s fall. Moreover what was the purpose of God in putting an evil fruit in paradise? It was evil since eating it bring bad consequences. .

Saying the fruit was evil because eating it brought bad consequences doesn’t make any sense. Bleach is a useful chemical and not inherently evil but drinking it would bring bad consequences, so do you consider bleach to be evil?

The evil was the disobedience to God, not the agent by which the disobedience was performed.

Answer to your first question: He was created good, and was in presence of God, which is perfect good, so there is no logical reason to believe why he should leave his peaceful place and buy fire instead. He did know that he could not beat God, so rebellion against God was meaningless.

Answer to your second question: Stubborn and at the same time being the highest angel? That means that God chose the most stubborn angle to be closest one to him. Either the stubborn is a good quality or God didn’t know his angels most importantly the one closest to him which both case are wrong…

Rather than respond to these statements directly, I will simply refer you once again to the two books I mentioned earlier:

Angels (and Demons) by Peter Kreeft
Interview with an Exorcist by Fr. José Fortea

I think your idea of what angels are is way off. It’s a subject that would take more than a couple of forums posts to cover, so the best thing I can do is refer you to these two books. As I said earlier, both of them are very easy to read and highly academic. Plus they aren’t very big at all. I can’t think of a better introduction to the subject than these two books.

Do you believe that fallen angels has the power to tempt us?

Yes. Other humans have the power to tempt us, too. Even inanimate objects have the power to tempt us (junk food, money, etc.). Once you realize that temptation has more do do with the one being tempted than the thing doing the tempting, you won’t find the idea that fallen angels dan tempt us to be so hard to accept.

Again, get those two books and give them a read if you really want a better understanding of angels, demons, and the devil. You can find used copies of them online pretty cheap. If anything, look at them as material to help you form your arguments more coherently.

 

[Regency]

I had several discussions about the origin of evil and apparently everything return to story of Satan and fallen angel. I am however not convinced that this story true for the following reason:

1. We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.
2. The story of rebellion against God is also nonsense in the case that no one specially Lucifer could possibly lose that closeness to God and play a game which its end is quite obvious and foolish.
3. Why Satan and his army should be dominant on us being able to tempt us if they have already fallen.

Satan is created evil. It follows from the structure of the world. Creation is the shadows of “the eternal”. In particular, the Son of Man is the shadow of the Son of God & Satan is the shadow of the Spirit. Jesus is the mediator, being Son of Man & Son of God.

 

[Dorothy]

Satan is created evil. It follows from the structure of the world. Creation is the shadows of “the eternal”. In particular, the Son of Man is the shadow of the Son of God & Satan is the shadow of the Spirit. Jesus is the mediator, being Son of Man & Son of God.

Satan is a fallen angel. What you said is not Catholic theology.

 

[Regency]

I had several discussions about the origin of evil and apparently everything return to story of Satan and fallen angel. I am however not convinced that this story true for the following reason:

1. We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.
2. The story of rebellion against God is also nonsense in the case that no one specially Lucifer could possibly lose that closeness to God and play a game which its end is quite obvious and foolish.
3. Why Satan and his army should be dominant on us being able to tempt us if they have already fallen.

Satan is created evil. It follows from the structure of the world. Creation is the shadow of “the eternal”. The Son of Man is the shadow of the Son of God, Satan is the shadow of the Spirit. Jesus is the mediator, being Son of Man & Son of God.

 

[davidv]

Satan is created evil. It follows from the structure of the world. Creation is the shadow of “the eternal”. The Son of Man is the shadow of the Son of God, Satan is the shadow of the Spirit. Jesus is the mediator, being Son of Man & Son of God.

Not according to Church teaching.

**II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS **

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably *rejected *God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271
393 It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272
394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God. 395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

 

[Bahman]

Saying the fruit was evil because eating it brought bad consequences doesn’t make any sense. Bleach is a useful chemical and not inherently evil but drinking it would bring bad consequences, so do you consider bleach to be evil?

The evil was the disobedience to God, not the agent by which the disobedience was performed.

Yes, a fruit with that eating that has a bad consequences is evil.

Why they should disobey God knowing the consequence of their behaviour? Why God should give access to Satan so he could seduce them. Why God should put such three there? And many other questions…

Rather than respond to these statements directly, I will simply refer you once again to the two books I mentioned earlier:

Angels (and Demons) by Peter Kreeft
Interview with an Exorcist by Fr. José Fortea

I think your idea of what angels are is way off. It’s a subject that would take more than a couple of forums posts to cover, so the best thing I can do is refer you to these two books. As I said earlier, both of them are very easy to read and highly academic. Plus they aren’t very big at all. I can’t think of a better introduction to the subject than these two books.

It would nice if you could provide your idea here instead of referring me to two books. Thanks a lot anyway.

 

[Regency]

Not according to Church teaching.

Thanks. Still where did the idea of fall originate? The quotations rather contradict this change.

 

[Back2Church]

Yes, a fruit with that eating that has a bad consequences is evil.

You have an odd concept of evil, then.

In order for something to be evil, there has to have the intent to do evil. A fruit cannot intend to do anything. It simply exists according to its nature. The fruit did not choose to be eaten, nor did it choose to be the object of temptation, nor did it choose the consequence of being eaten.

There is no evil outside of will. Not even mosquitoes are evil (even though we like to think they are, lol), because even though they feed off of other creatures and cause pain, they are not willfully and rationally choosing to do so out of malice. They are simply living according to their nature. They don’t even know that they are causing suffering in others (however minor). Heck, they don’t even understand that their source of food is other living creatures. They simply know it is food.

Consider these two scenarios:

1. A child runs out onto a road, right in front of a moving car. The driver slams on the brakes, but there wasn’t enough space to stop in time and the child was killed.
2. A child runs out onto a road, right in front of a moving car. The driver presses on the gas, aiming right at the child, and kills him on purpose.

In both scenarios, the child is killed by the exact same means: being hit by car. But in the first scenario, the driver tried to stop, but was unable to do so. The driver in the first scenario is not evil. The driver in the second scenario is most definitely evil. What’s the difference? Intent. Evil is something you have to willingly choose to do.

Since a fruit (literal or otherwise) cannot willingly choose anything, it cannot be evil.

Why they should disobey God knowing the consequence of their behaviour? Why God should give access to Satan so he could seduce them. Why God should put such three there? And many other questions…

Many other questions indeed. Why did God create the universe, angels, and humans in the first place? Why did God do anything at all? I can’t tell you why God did anything. Maybe someone else can, but I certainly can’t! lol.

It would nice if you could provide your idea here instead of referring me to two books. Thanks a lot anyway.

I would love to. I just can’t do so off the top of my head! lol! Plus, to get a full understanding (or at least as close to full as we can get as humans) of angels, demons, and the devil, it would take a lot more space than what a forum post allows. That’s why I suggested the books.

Besides, if you are honest in wanting to understand these things, then you really should seek a better source of information than a forum. It’s a great place for discussion, but not that great of a place to begin an actual academic study of anything.

That being said, I’ll pull out my books tomorrow and see if I can find a concise answer to your previous questions about the devil. No promises, though! Hehe. But for the sake of conversation, I’ll give it a shot.

 

[Bahman]

You have an odd concept of evil, then.

In order for something to be evil, there has to have the intent to do evil. A fruit cannot intend to do anything. It simply exists according to its nature. The fruit did not choose to be eaten, nor did it choose to be the object of temptation, nor did it choose the consequence of being eaten.

There is no evil outside of will. Not even mosquitoes are evil (even though we like to think they are, lol), because even though they feed off of other creatures and cause pain, they are not willfully and rationally choosing to do so out of malice. They are simply living according to their nature. They don’t even know that they are causing suffering in others (however minor). Heck, they don’t even understand that their source of food is other living creatures. They simply know it is food.

Since a fruit (literal or otherwise) cannot willingly choose anything, it cannot be evil.

But fruit is willingly put there for a specific purpose. What was that the purpose of putting such a fruit in paradise by God? A fruit that was very tempting (from our perspective) to eat. From Adam and Eve perspective, I cannot possibly imagine the meaning of temptation, because they were created good and couldn’t have any temptation for an evil act (disobeying God which applies to fallen angels). I think we need to extend our imagination slightly to could put ourselves inside their shoes try to see things from their perspective rather than our perspective. This might help us to realize the difference between story and history.

 

[tonyrey]

Satan is created evil. It follows from the structure of the world. Creation is the shadow of “the eternal”. The Son of Man is the shadow of the Son of God, Satan is the shadow of the Spirit. Jesus is the mediator, being Son of Man & Son of God.

Evil is not created by God. Evil is due to the abuse of free will.

 

[Regency]

And what is the cause of abuse?

 

[Dorothy]

And what is the cause of abuse?

The free will choices we are allowed to make.

 

[Bahman]

Evil is not created by God. Evil is due to the abuse of free will.

In case of Satan, where the definition of evil action come from for the first time? Can you please tell me how we could define an action as evil if we have never experience it and if no one has ever told us? Simple, how you could abuse free will to do evil if you have never been exposed to evil?

 

[Regency]

The free will choices we are allowed to make.

You will of course reply that our ignorance is the cause of wrong choices. But what is ignorance except negation of knowledge. But what is negation? Is it not a primitive eternal concept? Shouldn’t the eternal be shadowed by the created as Paul states? What would be the shadow of the Spirit?