How should a Catholic respond to growing evidence against church teachings on LGBT parenting?

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Thorolfr said:
It still means that people with this attraction are considered to have something seriously “wrong” with them.
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It just means it is a temptation like any other. It’s not really a big deal unless you make it one.
 
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BrettK said:
I am asking because this is something I have found difficulties doing myself where I am arguing for the position of the Catholic Church in regards to these issues, but am meeting a brick wall when faced with scientific evidence that I can only oppose on a pure moral ground. Is that the only ground this argument truly holds?
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I don’t understand this line of questioning. Why would you meet an argument along the lines of scientific evidence with moral arguments? Why wouldn’t you meet it with other scientific evidence? Unless you are saying the data are all in and the body of evidence is so conclusive, we can declare it a theory or law of nature.

Look, I’m agnostic, and I also have relatives who are members of the LGTBQ community. I support monogamous gay marriage. But I also understand that the data is far from conclusive on this matter. If I were to present recent studies on same sex parenting, I would fully expect some counter evidence. Because there is conflicting data.

I would examine the counter evidence and we could discuss it from there. Arguments from Catholic morality alone would have zero impact, because I reject its position (ha!) on what constitutes legitimate sex to begin with. I wouldn’t recommend this line of argument because you’d have to find common ground first on what sex even means.

If I may make a suggestion, you might have to decide if your goal is a no-holds-bar bottom line of “gay couples should not parent in any situations” and “gay couples may raise children together, but it’s not as desirable as having het parents.”

Depending on where your line is, that’s going to set the bar for your evidence. I would say the first would be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to support via evidence. The second, well there’s definitely a lot of conflicting data and certainly you can find some that would suggest privileging heterosexual parents is consistent with healthier, happier children.

Hope that clarifies.
 
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Thorolfr said:
But the Catholic Church hardly considers this attraction to be a good or a harmless thing, does it? It might not be a sin to have this attraction, but Catholic documents still describe it as “a tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil.” It still means that people with this attraction are considered to have something seriously “wrong” with them.
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Since the sexual acts in question are held to be wrong, then the inclination toward them is not a good thing Thor - I’m sure you see how that follows, it’s just that you want to dispute the premise. Just ask those who find same sex attraction a burden (I know - you don’t know any…). Sexual acts with persons of the same sex are evidently a departure from that for which our bodies are equipped. Yes - something is amiss.
 
Thorolfr said:
That’s why I don’t know why Rau insists on talking about gay parents modelling “same sex sexual relationships” to their children instead of “same sex relationships.” The sexual aspect is probably not all that apparent to most children.
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Children are not dumb Thor. Is it your expectation that same sex parents ought to eschew any forms of behaviour that May reveal the nature of their relationships. No hugs, no sitting close on the couch, no kiss goodbye, separate bedrooms.

Or is it your view that same sex parents are simply pretty much indistinguishable from a couple of good friends in their interpersonal relationship. If so, why isn’t that the case for typical opposite sex parents?
 
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Thorolfr said:
I think that some people are overemphasizing what many children learn about sex from their parents.
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It isn’t that they learn about sex - it’s that they recognise it’s a constituent in their parent’s relationship. So same sex parents “model” a sexual relationship.
 
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BrettK said:
How is a catholic or any christian opposed to gay-adoption or the lifestyle of same-sex marriages, etc supposed to help convince an average person that they are correct, when multiple psychiatric and psychological reputable institutions are declaring it to at the very least, not be negative and that the stigma around these issues simply needs to end?
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With patience, charity, and fraternity.
 
Rau said:
Children are not dumb Thor. Is it your expectation that same sex parents ought to eschew any forms of behaviour that May reveal the nature of their relationships. No hugs, no sitting close on the couch, no kiss goodbye, separate bedrooms.
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What do hugs and kisses goodbye tell us? I hug my parents, including my Dad, goodbye. I hug my straight male cousin goodbye. My Mom hugs her female friends goodbye. My Mom kisses her female friends on the cheek. I’ve kissed my French friends, including male friends, on both cheeks. I kiss my mother on the cheek. In public, my Dad usually gives my Mom a peck on the cheek. And I know a lot of straight couples who have separate bedrooms (probably because one of them snores).
 
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Thor, points for persistence, but not effectiveness. Or maybe you’re right - most same sex parents don’t have sexual relationships - they are just friends or perhaps siblings? :roll_eyes:
 
Rau said:
It isn’t that they learn about sex - it’s that they recognise it’s a constituent in their parent’s relationship. So same sex parents “model” a sexual relationship.
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I understand your point. But on a visceral level, I have to tell you I recognized no such thing about my parents. Because, since I understood what sex was as a teen, I immediately realized I was conceived asexually. Any other suggestion leaves me to shudder in horror at the thought.

…now you’ve made me shudder.
 
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Rau said:
Thor, points for persistence, but not effectiveness. Or maybe you’re right - most same sex parents don’t have sexual relationships - they are just friends or perhaps siblings? :roll_eyes:
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I didn’t say that gay parents don’t have sexual relationships. I just think that you and others are making too much of a big deal over what bad things you imagine kids might possibly learn from growing up in a family with gay parents. Most kids nowadays, whether they have gay parents or not, are probably going to learn a lot more about the sexual aspect of same sex relationships from the surrounding culture and their friends than they will from their parents.
 
QContinuum said:
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Rau:
It isn’t that they learn about sex - it’s that they recognise it’s a constituent in their parent’s relationship. So same sex parents “model” a sexual relationship.
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I understand your point. But on a visceral level, I have to tell you I recognized no such thing about my parents. Because, since I understood what sex was as a teen, I immediately realized I was conceived asexually. Any other suggestion leaves me to shudder in horror at the thought.

…now you’ve made me shudder.
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As a kid, I never thought about my parents having sex or wondered if they did anything in bed each night besides sleep. Nor did I ever get a birds and the bees talk from either of my parents.
 
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Thorolfr said:
I just think that you and others are making too much of a big deal over what bad things you imagine kids might possibly learn from growing up in a family with gay parents.
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What bad things do you have in mind?
Thorolfr said:
Most kids nowadays, whether they have gay parents or not, are probably going to learn a lot more about the sexual aspect of same sex relationships from the surrounding culture
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From wherever they learn it, the fact that their parents are participants in such a relationship normalizes it for the kids. Hence my original observation about parents modeling behaviour…
 
QContinuum said:
Arguments from Catholic morality alone would have zero impact, because I reject its position (ha!) on what constitutes legitimate sex to begin with. I wouldn’t recommend this line of argument because you’d have to find common ground first on what sex even means.
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The thread isn’t about convincing people, just what Catholics think of it.
 
Rau said:
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Thorolfr:
I just think that you and others are making too much of a big deal over what bad things you imagine kids might possibly learn from growing up in a family with gay parents.
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What bad things do you have in mind?
Thorolfr said:
Most kids nowadays, whether they have gay parents or not, are probably going to learn a lot more about the sexual aspect of same sex relationships from the surrounding culture
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From wherever they learn it, the fact that their parents are participants in such a relationship normalizes it for the kids. Hence my original observation about parents modeling behaviour…
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Personally, I don’t think that there is anything bad to be learned. And if same sex relationships aren’t “normalized” for kids because they have gay parents, it’ll happen because they have gay uncle’s or gay cousins or other gay family members or gay neighbors, or their friends have gay parents, etc.
 
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Thorolfr said:
And if same sex relationships aren’t “normalized” for kids because they have gay parents, it’ll happen because they have gay uncle’s or gay cousins or…
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Partly true, though I suspect one’s parents are the greater influencers…
 
TK421 said:
Honestly, I know optimism would naturally make us want to believe that these various accredited bodies have a high level of objectivity and that we can trust them on every subject, but we can’t. The corruption, social pressure, professional pressure, and in some cases just simple cowardice is very real.
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TK421
I’m in a different timezone - hence the delay in response.

I do agree with your skepticism with academia. Admittedly, I have much experience in dealing with “hard science” and scientists, where it is easier to pick flawed science and method. This is much more difficult in the “soft sciences” where I suspect there is alot of scope for confirmation bias error. I see too much of it - especially in the topic of this thread.
In general, secular society has replaced God with “science” - and we are paying the price for this. Science has no capacity to change the moral teaching of the Church and Scripture.

I note there are some on this thread who try to argue for LGBTx relationships. The Catholic teaching on this is very scriptural and very clear. No amount of appealing to the particular translations of greek words is going to change this. Any gender distinction beyond just male and female is a nonsense.

I do however recognise that a very small minority of people are born with a pre-disposition to same sex attraction or inherited some genetic anomaly. This is a reality and they are equally called to share in the truth of Christ’s Church. This calling is different but not unique. It may be seen as a burden/cross to bear but no more so than others who also have equally difficult or worse situations to navigate through life. All of us are required to exercise disciplines to our human will. They are just called to exercise a different set of disciplines. It is here - at the point of our most vulnerable weakness, that we are most “reliant” on the “grace” of God. Without Him we cant do it.

Let us pray for this community and especially that “error” of thinking that seeks to replace the Infinite, All Powerful, Almighty with an artefact of human rationality called “science”.

For Information: I have doctoral qualifications and work professionally in the hard sciences 🙂 🙂
 
The OP is concerned with defending his/ her views to non-Catholics. With regard to religious arguments, I fully agree others here are more qualified. I am advising strictly with regards to the scientific data. Which is not, to my knowledge, uniformly supportive of either side.
 
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