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TC3033
Guest
OR…
How should Catholics deal with Protestants? The early church said not to associate but the doctrine has changed? (OP reached new poster limit for 7/10
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Wannano
Guest
Immediately after the OP’s first post I was tempted to ask how many hours had elapsed since his conversion to Catholicism. He certainly has disappeared fast.
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TigerLily-1
Guest
When I first read the OP, I thought it couldn’t possibly be a serious question and still think it isn’t.Immediately after the OP’s first post I was tempted to ask how many hours had elapsed since his conversion to Catholicism. He certainly has disappeared fast.
The OP does seem to have disappeared (maybe he deconverted?) and most likely won’t return.
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po18guy
Well-known member
Ah! Let’s understand infallibility first. When the Pope speaks to the entire Church, from the chair of peter, addressing solely matters of faith and morals, and in concert withe college of cardinals, the Holy Spirit guides him (and them) into all truth. Read Acts 15. That process has been repeated as necessary.
When is the last time a pope made an infallible pronouncement?
68 years ago.
p.s. IMO, Paul was worse! After the requirement for circumcision had been set aside, he had Timothy circumcised so as to avoid offense. Peter never drew blood.
When is the last time a pope made an infallible pronouncement?
68 years ago.
p.s. IMO, Paul was worse! After the requirement for circumcision had been set aside, he had Timothy circumcised so as to avoid offense. Peter never drew blood.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, Jesus was clear that it would be through our love for one another that people would know we belonged to Him.
I was listening to the Saint of the Day on the radio earlier and it put me in mind of the great hatred in Europe between Catholics and Protestants over the centuries. There have been times when this was fatal for both sides, and even to this day, so much resentment and misunderstanding persists.
Love is the only way to surmount these divisions.
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kainosktisis
Guest
From Wikipedia on Pope Pius XII:
“While the Vatican was officially neutral during World War II, Pius XII maintained links to the German Resistance, used diplomacy to aid the victims of the war and lobby for peace, and spoke out against race-based murders and other atrocities.[2] The Reichskonkordat and his leadership of the Catholic Church during the war remain the subject of controversy—including allegations of public silence and inaction about the fate of the Jews.[3] After the war, he advocated peace and reconciliation, including lenient policies towards Axis and Axis-satellite nations. He was also a staunch opponent of Communism and of the Italian Communist Party.”
This topic was covered in Rodney Stark’s book, Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History. I would suggest reading Chapter 2, “Sins of Anti-Semitism”, pp. 9-35, specifically pp. 29-34 on “Hilter’s Pope”. Of special note:
(p.30) "As they noted, Hitler had bitterly attacked the Catholic Church, had closed all the Catholic schools, and had arrested thousands of priests and nuns and sent them to Dachau and other death camps.
As the world learned of the horrors of the Nazi death camps, Pope Pius XII was widely praised for his vigorous and devoted efforts to saving Jewish lives during the war. In 1943, Chaim Weizmann, who would become the first president of Israel, wrote: ‘the Holy See is lending powerful help wherever it can, to mitigate the fate of my persecuted co-religionists.’ Moshe Sharett, soon to be Israel’s first foreign minister and second prime minister, met with the pope during the last days of the war: ‘I told him that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done various countries to rescue Jews.’ Upon the pope’s death in 1958, Golda Meir, a future prime minister of Israel, noted his efforts on behalf of the Jews of Europe, calling him ‘a great servant of peace’ for it was well-known among that generation of Israelis that Pope Pius XII had made many personal efforts to protect and shelter Jews from the Nazis."
This is such a violent time in human history. It is a time when it produced such saints as St. Edith Stein (aka St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross) & St. Maximillian Kolbe, both who’d died at Auschwitz.
You ask: “How can we trust the acclaimed History - when It was written by Church and the Roman state combined?”
Easy: the word “Catholic” first appeared in writing by St. Ignatius of Antioch ca. 107-110 AD in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. "
This epistle demonstrates that the Church had existed long before this supposed heretical church.
“While the Vatican was officially neutral during World War II, Pius XII maintained links to the German Resistance, used diplomacy to aid the victims of the war and lobby for peace, and spoke out against race-based murders and other atrocities.[2] The Reichskonkordat and his leadership of the Catholic Church during the war remain the subject of controversy—including allegations of public silence and inaction about the fate of the Jews.[3] After the war, he advocated peace and reconciliation, including lenient policies towards Axis and Axis-satellite nations. He was also a staunch opponent of Communism and of the Italian Communist Party.”
This topic was covered in Rodney Stark’s book, Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History. I would suggest reading Chapter 2, “Sins of Anti-Semitism”, pp. 9-35, specifically pp. 29-34 on “Hilter’s Pope”. Of special note:
(p.30) "As they noted, Hitler had bitterly attacked the Catholic Church, had closed all the Catholic schools, and had arrested thousands of priests and nuns and sent them to Dachau and other death camps.
As the world learned of the horrors of the Nazi death camps, Pope Pius XII was widely praised for his vigorous and devoted efforts to saving Jewish lives during the war. In 1943, Chaim Weizmann, who would become the first president of Israel, wrote: ‘the Holy See is lending powerful help wherever it can, to mitigate the fate of my persecuted co-religionists.’ Moshe Sharett, soon to be Israel’s first foreign minister and second prime minister, met with the pope during the last days of the war: ‘I told him that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done various countries to rescue Jews.’ Upon the pope’s death in 1958, Golda Meir, a future prime minister of Israel, noted his efforts on behalf of the Jews of Europe, calling him ‘a great servant of peace’ for it was well-known among that generation of Israelis that Pope Pius XII had made many personal efforts to protect and shelter Jews from the Nazis."
This is such a violent time in human history. It is a time when it produced such saints as St. Edith Stein (aka St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross) & St. Maximillian Kolbe, both who’d died at Auschwitz.
You ask: “How can we trust the acclaimed History - when It was written by Church and the Roman state combined?”
Easy: the word “Catholic” first appeared in writing by St. Ignatius of Antioch ca. 107-110 AD in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. "
This epistle demonstrates that the Church had existed long before this supposed heretical church.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Kainokstikis was kind enough to write an answer to your post, but I wanted to note that you are way, way, WAY off the topic of the thread. Please do not hijack threads.
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lilypadrees
Guest
I come from a Catholic-Protestant family. Before we moved to my mother’s home state, the only people I knew were Catholic inc my mother. Or so I thought until the day she told me she was a Protestant like the rest of her family.
Of course, her being Protestant filled me with dread since our Priest once told us not to go to churches that weren’t Catholic. From the moment I learned the truth about my mother, I began praying that she would become Catholic. My prayers were answered and she converted when she was 81.
If you are that concerned about being around Protestants, pray for their conversion to the Catholic Church. If it is God’s Will, it’ll happen when you least expect it.
Of course, her being Protestant filled me with dread since our Priest once told us not to go to churches that weren’t Catholic. From the moment I learned the truth about my mother, I began praying that she would become Catholic. My prayers were answered and she converted when she was 81.
If you are that concerned about being around Protestants, pray for their conversion to the Catholic Church. If it is God’s Will, it’ll happen when you least expect it.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
For the record; In order to be excommunicated or declared a heretic, One has to be an already baptized practicing Catholic, and in full communion with the Catholic Church. The Catholic who teaches error or teaches against the full deposit of the Apostolic faith, is tried by the Church, and if the Catholic does not repent, he/she is excommunicated and dubbed a heretic. It is here where the Church exercises her divine keys to bind and loose and protects the flock of Jesus, separating the sheep of Christ from the goats.
This has been the “norm” throughout Church history to today including Vatican II. The Church never changes a dogma. What you mislabel as “dogma” relates to disciplinary issues among the members of the Catholic Church. Disciplinary and or Ecclisiastical matters can be changed, for example; If a confirmed heretic repents later in life, the Church will welcome them back with song and dance.
In regards to our separated brethren today. These are never considered heretics. They are separated from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church by no fault of their own. Thus by virtue of their valid baptism (True Trinity) the Church recognizes these little ones as separated brethren. They still fall under the umbrella of the Catholic Church, by virtue of the their baptism.
Catholics are not to follow known heresies and teachings from known Catholic heretics past, present and future. According to many Church councils, we the flock of God have been protected and separated from these goats.
As far as associating with our separated brethren. We are called to give a reason for our faith in love. Although Catholics are not free from persecution and ridicule by non-Catholic Christians. We must not be moved by every wind of doctrine invented by men. These waves and storms will come against every Catholic. Remember the master teachings, build your house on the Rock (Peter) which cannot be moved.
It is not a sin, to associate with our separated brethren. So long as your faith is not hindered by association. In short, You are free to share your faith and listen to our separated brethren share their faith. But be prepared to give a reason for your faith, because in most cases, it will be your Catholic faith that comes into question more often than a separated brethren sharing his/her faith.
In summary, Catholics are in the world (among many diverse secular communities and faith based religions) but we are not of the world. Here we are challenged in life to a light to all the nations. Which is not easy, but He that is in you, has conquered the world.
In the early Church which you addressed, there never existed Protestants or separated brethren. All Christians for the first 1600 years were all Catholic or excommunicated Catholics who have fallen into heresy. These are never considered separated brethren. Because they still hold to the seven sacraments, apostolic succession. Protestants are considered separated brethren because they have removed their faith or rejected all or some of the sacraments, instituted by Jesus Christ Himself, including Holy orders and apostolic succession, which are not man made, but God ordained.
Peace be with you
This has been the “norm” throughout Church history to today including Vatican II. The Church never changes a dogma. What you mislabel as “dogma” relates to disciplinary issues among the members of the Catholic Church. Disciplinary and or Ecclisiastical matters can be changed, for example; If a confirmed heretic repents later in life, the Church will welcome them back with song and dance.
In regards to our separated brethren today. These are never considered heretics. They are separated from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church by no fault of their own. Thus by virtue of their valid baptism (True Trinity) the Church recognizes these little ones as separated brethren. They still fall under the umbrella of the Catholic Church, by virtue of the their baptism.
Catholics are not to follow known heresies and teachings from known Catholic heretics past, present and future. According to many Church councils, we the flock of God have been protected and separated from these goats.
As far as associating with our separated brethren. We are called to give a reason for our faith in love. Although Catholics are not free from persecution and ridicule by non-Catholic Christians. We must not be moved by every wind of doctrine invented by men. These waves and storms will come against every Catholic. Remember the master teachings, build your house on the Rock (Peter) which cannot be moved.
It is not a sin, to associate with our separated brethren. So long as your faith is not hindered by association. In short, You are free to share your faith and listen to our separated brethren share their faith. But be prepared to give a reason for your faith, because in most cases, it will be your Catholic faith that comes into question more often than a separated brethren sharing his/her faith.
In summary, Catholics are in the world (among many diverse secular communities and faith based religions) but we are not of the world. Here we are challenged in life to a light to all the nations. Which is not easy, but He that is in you, has conquered the world.
In the early Church which you addressed, there never existed Protestants or separated brethren. All Christians for the first 1600 years were all Catholic or excommunicated Catholics who have fallen into heresy. These are never considered separated brethren. Because they still hold to the seven sacraments, apostolic succession. Protestants are considered separated brethren because they have removed their faith or rejected all or some of the sacraments, instituted by Jesus Christ Himself, including Holy orders and apostolic succession, which are not man made, but God ordained.
Peace be with you
People, a repeat of my post from the other thread.
For the sake of the OP’s mental well-being, please stop addressing his/her questions in any shape, way, or form, regardless of what you were going to say.
The scrupulosity/OCD exhibited is extreme, and it takes very little to trigger it. If you answer in the negative, it will flare up, and if you answer in the positive, he/she will not believe you and use the forums as a crutch. He/she refuses to heed good advice, including that from Fr. Edward.
Quite frankly, the forums should be made worthless to the OP so as to steer him/her to seek the real face-to-face help required.
For the sake of the OP’s mental well-being, please stop addressing his/her questions in any shape, way, or form, regardless of what you were going to say.
The scrupulosity/OCD exhibited is extreme, and it takes very little to trigger it. If you answer in the negative, it will flare up, and if you answer in the positive, he/she will not believe you and use the forums as a crutch. He/she refuses to heed good advice, including that from Fr. Edward.
Quite frankly, the forums should be made worthless to the OP so as to steer him/her to seek the real face-to-face help required.
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simspt
Guest
Don’t put God in a box…God can save anyone…be a good Catholic witness to your family and educate them by word and example…let the Spirit do the rest. Avoiding them would be the last thing you should do. That’s what cults like JWs do.
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simspt
Guest
sorry I didn’t see your post
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