How SHOULD Health Care Work?

[boppaid]

Thank for for the scripture.

I agree with you that we need more social justice programs. There are some, but not nearly enough. (There’s a plan in my state to give aid to the unemployed so that they can go to school that first comes to mind.) Again, we need change. Social justice is wonderful and necessary, but so is social welfare.

 

[Trader]

Thank for for the scripture.

I agree with you that we need more social justice programs. There are some, but not nearly enough. (There’s a plan in my state to give aid to the unemployed so that they can go to school that first comes to mind.) Again, we need change. Social justice is wonderful and necessary, but so is social welfare.

If we had more justice, we would need fewer programs.

How about the duty for parents to support their children? Isn’t that a matter of justice at its most basic level?

Remember the one “You shall not steal”? Isn’t that what happens when people demand others pay for what they want without just compensation.?

Remember the one(two for Catholics), “You shall not covet.” Why should it bother you if people who made better choices have more than you do?

While we are at it, “The poor you will always have with you” was not an economic forcast. It was a statement that they were in the presence of the Savior and had better get the priorities straight. Social justice is supposed to flow from our love of God. Love of God is first. Love of neighbor is second.

 

[emily47017]

Why should it bother you if people who made better choices have more than you do?

While we are at it, “The poor you will always have with you” was not an economic forcast. It was a statement that they were in the presence of the Savior and had better get the priorities straight. Social justice is supposed to flow from our love of God. Love of God is first. Love of neighbor is second.

and love of money is never.

it’s not about some people having more, my friend. it’s about some people having nothing at all. in our country, in our time, this is unnecessary and unacceptable. fixing the inequities in the health care system will not require the rich or the middling rich to suddenly take a vow of poverty, but it will require a shift in, yes, priorities.

when jesus told the disciples to hold their horses about the poor, he didn’t mean for them to hold their horses forever. jesus is no longer with us in the flesh; he’s with us in our brothers and sisters. love of neighbor is love of god.

jesus said that, too.

 

[joab]

I have watched with interest this thread. I am married to the same man for almost 23 years. We have 4 children of which one has special needs. I lost our health insurance along with my job due to this child. He broke his knee. I didn’t take him to the doctor for 2 weeks because I couldn’t believe it was broke and I couldn’t afford to take off of work. When I did, in spite of having medical insurance, we were still owing $4000 after surgery. Because he required theapy, which meant I had to take off work, I lost my job. Medical welfare helped after that, I was forced to drive 52 miles one way for his physical thearpy 3 times a week. Even though I applied for charity care, I am being hounded by the bill collectors for the $4000. I don’t have it. I have a new job in a nursing home and have medical for my family. The medical premium is over $510 a month. At $11 per hour you do the math. This insurance has a $500 deductible and 20/80 co-pay. Tell me how I can afford anyone getting ill/injured? My husband got injured at the same time I lost my job. The job he has now has no benefits such as health insurance, vacation, sick pay. He is laid-off every winter. He can’t afford to take off for any reason.No one will tell me that they work harder than him to support our family.
Am I to “get rid of the children” now that we have had a really bad time of it? Of course not. I already sew our clothes, shop at the good-will, grow a garden, and only use the car for work(I grocery shop after working all night to save gas). We drive cars that are 10 years old or older. We don’t go on vacations. We now heat with wood so that we don’t use much LP.
We are doing everything in our power to go forward. We also live in fear of an illness/injury to any one of us.
I would like to see a percent of the gross income( maybe 2%) deducted from everypaycheck for medical just like the government has for the seniors. Expand the coverage to everyone. If you want more than the basics, then you could pay for it and buy private insurance. Under the government you would still have some deductibles/co-pays, but at least you would be able to afford basic health care.​

Okay…I am hunkered down and ready to get verbally slapped.

 

[Man]

I have watched with interest this thread. I am married to the same man for almost 23 years. We have 4 children of which one has special needs. I lost our health insurance along with my job due to this child. He broke his knee. I didn’t take him to the doctor for 2 weeks because I couldn’t believe it was broke and I couldn’t afford to take off of work. When I did, in spite of having medical insurance, we were still owing $4000 after surgery. Because he required theapy, which meant I had to take off work, I lost my job. Medical welfare helped after that, I was forced to drive 52 miles one way for his physical thearpy 3 times a week. Even though I applied for charity care, I am being hounded by the bill collectors for the $4000. I don’t have it. I have a new job in a nursing home and have medical for my family. The medical premium is over $510 a month. At $11 per hour you do the math. This insurance has a $500 deductible and 20/80 co-pay. Tell me how I can afford anyone getting ill/injured? My husband got injured at the same time I lost my job. The job he has now has no benefits such as health insurance, vacation, sick pay. He is laid-off every winter. He can’t afford to take off for any reason.No one will tell me that they work harder than him to support our family.
Am I to “get rid of the children” now that we have had a really bad time of it? Of course not. I already sew our clothes, shop at the good-will, grow a garden, and only use the car for work(I grocery shop after working all night to save gas). We drive cars that are 10 years old or older. We don’t go on vacations. We now heat with wood so that we don’t use much LP.
We are doing everything in our power to go forward. We also live in fear of an illness/injury to any one of us.
I would like to see a percent of the gross income( maybe 2%) deducted from everypaycheck for medical just like the government has for the seniors. Expand the coverage to everyone. If you want more than the basics, then you could pay for it and buy private insurance. Under the government you would still have some deductibles/co-pays, but at least you would be able to afford basic health care.​

Okay…I am hunkered down and ready to get verbally slapped.
Man;2493959:

Push the little blue arrow…

 

[Trader]

I have watched with interest this thread. I am married to the same man for almost 23 years. We have 4 children of which one has special needs. I lost our health insurance along with my job due to this child. He broke his knee. I didn’t take him to the doctor for 2 weeks because I couldn’t believe it was broke and I couldn’t afford to take off of work. When I did, in spite of having medical insurance, we were still owing $4000 after surgery. Because he required theapy, which meant I had to take off work, I lost my job. Medical welfare helped after that, I was forced to drive 52 miles one way for his physical thearpy 3 times a week. Even though I applied for charity care, I am being hounded by the bill collectors for the $4000. I don’t have it. I have a new job in a nursing home and have medical for my family. The medical premium is over $510 a month. At $11 per hour you do the math. This insurance has a $500 deductible and 20/80 co-pay. Tell me how I can afford anyone getting ill/injured? My husband got injured at the same time I lost my job. The job he has now has no benefits such as health insurance, vacation, sick pay. He is laid-off every winter. He can’t afford to take off for any reason.No one will tell me that they work harder than him to support our family.
Am I to “get rid of the children” now that we have had a really bad time of it? Of course not. I already sew our clothes, shop at the good-will, grow a garden, and only use the car for work(I grocery shop after working all night to save gas). We drive cars that are 10 years old or older. We don’t go on vacations. We now heat with wood so that we don’t use much LP.
We are doing everything in our power to go forward. We also live in fear of an illness/injury to any one of us.
I would like to see a percent of the gross income( maybe 2%) deducted from everypaycheck for medical just like the government has for the seniors. Expand the coverage to everyone. If you want more than the basics, then you could pay for it and buy private insurance. Under the government you would still have some deductibles/co-pays, but at least you would be able to afford basic health care.​

Okay…I am hunkered down and ready to get verbally slapped.

Joab, my sympathy to you and your family. You made it into the “deserving” column before I finished your story. There are and should be programs to help you, including bankruptcy. You need to get some professional advice. Get it soon.

I just looked at an old tax return and the Medicare tax is 2.9%. That does not even pay the costs of Medicare. There are trillions of dollars of unfunded liabilities in that program alone. Since health care now runs in the mid teens as percentage of GDP you would need a tax of around 15% on all income, not wages alone, just to pay current medical expenses and we would still have the unfunded liabilities. With the success of other government programs as a model and the fact that the US population is aging and that health care costs are rising faster than other costs, even that 15% will be too low before long.

 

[whatevergirl]

joab;2501785:

I have watched with interest this thread. I am married to the same man for almost 23 years. We have 4 children of which one has special needs. I lost our health insurance along with my job due to this child. He broke his knee. I didn’t take him to the doctor for 2 weeks because I couldn’t believe it was broke and I couldn’t afford to take off of work. When I did, in spite of having medical insurance, we were still owing $4000 after surgery. Because he required theapy, which meant I had to take off work, I lost my job. Medical welfare helped after that, I was forced to drive 52 miles one way for his physical thearpy 3 times a week. Even though I applied for charity care, I am being hounded by the bill collectors for the $4000. I don’t have it. I have a new job in a nursing home and have medical for my family. The medical premium is over $510 a month. At $11 per hour you do the math. This insurance has a $500 deductible and 20/80 co-pay. Tell me how I can afford anyone getting ill/injured? My husband got injured at the same time I lost my job. The job he has now has no benefits such as health insurance, vacation, sick pay. He is laid-off every winter. He can’t afford to take off for any reason.No one will tell me that they work harder than him to support our family.
Am I to “get rid of the children” now that we have had a really bad time of it? Of course not. I already sew our clothes, shop at the good-will, grow a garden, and only use the car for work(I grocery shop after working all night to save gas). We drive cars that are 10 years old or older. We don’t go on vacations. We now heat with wood so that we don’t use much LP.
We are doing everything in our power to go forward. We also live in fear of an illness/injury to any one of us.
I would like to see a percent of the gross income( maybe 2%) deducted from everypaycheck for medical just like the government has for the seniors. Expand the coverage to everyone. If you want more than the basics, then you could pay for it and buy private insurance. Under the government you would still have some deductibles/co-pays, but at least you would be able to afford basic health care.​

Okay…I am hunkered down and ready to get verbally slapped.

Push the little blue arrow…

I’m very sorry to read about your story too…you are in my prayers, please know this. I have a question though…why did you lose your job for taking time off to be with an ill child…that is a violation of the Family Medical Leave Act?? You could actually sue your prior employer, if they refused to hold your job for I believe it’s 6 months, while you’re out either for your own illness, or that of someone within your immediate family, as a child, or spouse.

 

[Brendan]

… and 2) calling my congressman (rep. inslee, how do i love thee?) .

I hope your love for Rep Inslee includes converting him from his baby killing support and also away from his support for giving children contraceptives without their parents’s knowledge.

Hardly a source I would personally look to for responsibility in medical matters

 

[Trader]

and love of money is never.

fixing the inequities in the health care system will not require the rich or the middling rich to suddenly take a vow of poverty, but it will require a shift in, yes, priorities.

Which priorities need to be changed to actually reduce costs to an affordable level?

The choice to use tobacco after 43 years of warnings?

The choice to overeat?

The choice to abuse drugs and alcohol?

The choice of sexual promiscuity?

All of the above?

How can you speak of the freedom to choose without also speaking of the duty to choose well?

 

[whatevergirl]

Which priorities need to be changed to actually reduce costs to an affordable level?

The choice to use tobacco after 43 years of warnings?

The choice to overeat?

The choice to abuse drugs and alcohol?

The choice of sexual promiscuity?

All of the above?

How can you speak of the freedom to choose without also speaking of the duty to choose well?

70% of all major diseases are caused by lifestyle choices.

 

[Trader]

On my way home tonight the evening news gave me a new question for the single payer universal coverage advocates:

What about mental health coverage? If yes, with what standards?

What if we use the same standard as for pharmeceuticals, “proven safe and effective”, preferably with double blind tests? (Warning this is a trap)

The news item concerned a Hollywood starlet entering alcohol rehabilitation for the third time this year and it is still July. Wouldn’t you think a person with all those financial resources could afford the very best treatment? Should every ordinary drunk driver be given that same level of paid treatment?

 

[whatevergirl]

On my way home tonight the evening news gave me a new question for the single payer universal coverage advocates:

What about mental health coverage? If yes, with what standards?

What if we use the same standard as for pharmeceuticals, “proven safe and effective”, preferably with double blind tests? (Warning this is a trap)

The news item concerned a Hollywood starlet entering alcohol rehabilitation for the third time this year and it is still July. Wouldn’t you think a person with all those financial resources could afford the very best treatment? Should every ordinary drunk driver be given that same level of paid treatment?

Mental health facilities actually accept insurance now, on average…more often than not. And on most plans now, counseling is even paid for…

 

[emily47017]

Mental health facilities actually accept insurance now, on average…more often than not. And on most plans now, counseling is even paid for…

the issue hasn’t been accepting insurance, but the insurance companies offering coverage. many states have recently passed parity laws requiring insurance companies to cover mental health to the same degree they do physical health. one step at a time…

trader, i do so love your traps. “safe and effective” is a standard that all mental health practitioners are using both in the areas of medication and behavioral therapies. there are always controversies about best practices, no matter what medical specialty you choose to examine. mental health is no different.

the quality of mental health care is advancing by leaps and bounds, due to the advocacy of organizations like NAMI. one of my own diagnoses is one of the most notoriously untreatable mental illnesses on the books; therapists shake in their boots when they see us coming. (attn vern: don’t miss this straight line, buddy!) there are some medications that have been proven effective, and one behavioral therapy model that has helped 75% of patients achieve full recovery. these advances are, for a significant part of the population, nothing short of miraculous.

okay! where’s the trap?

Which priorities need to be changed to actually reduce costs to an affordable level?

The choice to use tobacco after 43 years of warnings?

The choice to overeat?

The choice to abuse drugs and alcohol?

The choice of sexual promiscuity?

All of the above?

How can you speak of the freedom to choose without also speaking of the duty to choose well?

i beg your pardon? who’s encouraging anyone to choose poorly?

our priorities are out of whack when we think that it’s okay to make a profit off of sick people, and to sit around and watch people die if they can’t pay – it doesn’t matter how they got sick, and it doesn’t matter why they can’t pay.

lifestyle choices are a big deal, don’t get me wrong. but let’s be honest here: are meth addicts children of god? are they your brothers? if you find one vomiting up blood in the parking lot of a hospital, will you walk on by feeling proud of the good choices you’ve made?

careful. this is a trick question.

 

[whatevergirl]

the issue hasn’t been accepting insurance, but the insurance companies offering coverage. many states have recently passed parity laws requiring insurance companies to cover mental health to the same degree they do physical health. one step at a time…

trader, i do so love your traps. “safe and effective” is a standard that all mental health practitioners are using both in the areas of medication and behavioral therapies. there are always controversies about best practices, no matter what medical specialty you choose to examine. mental health is no different.

the quality of mental health care is advancing by leaps and bounds, due to the advocacy of organizations like NAMI. one of my own diagnoses is one of the most notoriously untreatable mental illnesses on the books; therapists shake in their boots when they see us coming. (attn vern: don’t miss this straight line, buddy!) there are some medications that have been proven effective, and one behavioral therapy model that has helped 75% of patients achieve full recovery. these advances are, for a significant part of the population, nothing short of miraculous.

okay! where’s the trap?

i beg your pardon? who’s encouraging anyone to choose poorly?

our priorities are out of whack when we think that it’s okay to make a profit off of sick people, and to sit around and watch people die if they can’t pay – it doesn’t matter how they got sick, and it doesn’t matter why they can’t pay.

lifestyle choices are a big deal, don’t get me wrong. but let’s be honest here: are meth addicts children of god? are they your brothers? if you find one vomiting up blood in the parking lot of a hospital, will you walk on by feeling proud of the good choices you’ve made?

careful. this is a trick question.

I meant to say it that way…sorry Many carriers are beginning to offer it…even if it is a high copay or 20/80 split…they are seeing the growing need for mental healthcare.

 

[boppaid]

lifestyle choices are a big deal, don’t get me wrong. but let’s be honest here: are meth addicts children of god? are they your brothers? if you find one vomiting up blood in the parking lot of a hospital, will you walk on by feeling proud of the good choices you’ve made?

careful. this is a trick question.

Your post gave me chills. You are right on, Emily.

 

[Trader]

trader, i do so love your traps. “safe and effective” is a standard that all mental health practitioners are using both in the areas of medication and behavioral therapies. there are always controversies about best practices, no matter what medical specialty you choose to examine. mental health is no different.

okay! where’s the trap?

How can you do a double blind study when the treatment is so subjective? Even the same practitioner has good days and bad days. There are a huge number of experimental therapies that have no proof of effectiveness whatsoever and the client isn’t even told that the therapy is experimental. Pharmeceuticals are far more consistent in quality than two sessions of talk therapy even with the same therapist, and especially with different therapists.

Also because treatment is so subjective the therapist has an incentive to keep his or her appointment book full for as long as insurance will pay. A cured client is no longer generating income for the therapist. My ex got two years of “getting in touch with her feelings” from a “women’s issues” specialist when she needed medication for her bipolar disorder.

As for making money off sick people, it is a wonderful thing to relieve another person’s suffering. The person who does that deserves to be paid and paid well. One hope for improvement in health care is the publishing of hospital and doctor ratings so that the institutions with better results and fewer errors can make more money than the others.

 

[emily47017]

How can you do a double blind study when the treatment is so subjective?

OHH, is that all? i’m not a researcher by any stretch, but i know it’s been done. behavioral therapies* can be and have been tested in controlled double-blind studies. e.g. any good scientific experiment takes some creative thinking to design – isolating variables and figuring out how to remove the variable without letting anyone know a variable has been removed… no matter what you’re studying, that’s durned tricky! but i can imagine someone designing a placebo behavioral modification like “every time you catch yourself thinking about pink elephants, i want you to stick your left ring finger in your right ear and recite the pledge of allegiance.”

physical health interventions are often subjective as well; a patient’s perception of pain, for instance, or the degree to which a patient is “bothered” by side effects. i never know what to say when they ask me that. sure, i have the side effect, but it doesn’t really bother me…

As for making money off sick people, it is a wonderful thing to relieve another person’s suffering. The person who does that deserves to be paid and paid well.

absolutely! i see no conflict between a non-profit health care system and a doctor making a very comfortable living. but whose crazy idea was it to give humana’s CEO a multi-million dollar salary for maximizing profits at the expense of other people’s very survival?

• notice i don’t say “talk” therapy; it’s more than just getting your feelings off your chest. behavioral therapies involve teaching patients skills that help them deal with their problems in more effective ways. i’m sorry your ex wasted her time with someone who might more accurately be described as a “life coach”. bleah. these things happen with regular docs, too. bad diagnoses, accusations of hypochondriasis, poor med management… it’s not always malpractice; sometimes it’s just being distracted by something else that seems more significant. i’m sure her women’s issues seemed like a big deal at the time, even if they weren’t the root problem.

 

[joab]

Dear Trader, Whatevergirl and Man,
I thank you for your prayers. we keep praying and working and somehow we will make it. I lost my job because initially the government decided that even though our child has special needs (what they called circumstances!), he was 17 and should have been processed into the system to have the social services department take over parenting and teaching him to be independent. He not only is ours to teach, not the governments, but ours to love something the government doesn’t care about. According to the government, we should of taken advantage of more government programs over the years, and being that we didn’t, then his handicap was not severe enough to warrant claiming FMLA. We couldn’t afford-financially but especially emotionally-to keep fighting through appeals.
I don’t think that bankruptcy is the way to go. Besides the moral issues of not paying what you owe, we owe(outside of our mortgage) about $14,000 in debt-this includes the $4000 from our son’s surgery. We have no credit cards, checking accounts, IRA’s, etc. I would think that bankruptcy is for much larger amounts. Of course, at our wages, $14,000 is a fortune. However, I just believe that if I work harder/pray more, it’ll come out at the end. It is just a tough,rough patch that has been going on for so long, that I got depressed. It is living with that fear(maybe my lack of trust in God hummmm) that one more thing is going to hit us…
I would answer that our child should have-notice just this child-should have free basic medical care. However, notice that because we didn’t accept enough help, he can’t be disabled enough. So that makes me leary of the government deciding who gets help. Also, in this state, if a person receives SSI, then he gets free medical care. The amount of money a family can make is very low before a child loses the SSI which then loses the medical. We didn’t want/care about the SSI($32 mo), we just wanted the medical paid that our insurance company was not picking up.
On the up side, we are hoping/expecting that this child will be independent and supportive by the time he is 30. In spite of not having the government help. We mean that he will be working, having a social life, living on his own with no taxpayer support. He will probably always have charity given from the church, in fact he just started working for a man in our church. The man is PAYING him a fair wage and teaching him a craft. Not alot of hours, but it is a start. I say prayers for this man every day.

Bankruptcy is for the realy broke people or the realy rich corporations. We are still able to work hard.

 

[Trader]

Dear Trader, Whatevergirl and Man,
I thank you for your prayers. we keep praying and working and somehow we will make it. I lost my job because initially the government decided that even though our child has special needs (what they called circumstances!), he was 17 and should have been processed into the system to have the social services department take over parenting and teaching him to be independent. He not only is ours to teach, not the governments, but ours to love something the government doesn’t care about. According to the government, we should of taken advantage of more government programs over the years, and being that we didn’t, then his handicap was not severe enough to warrant claiming FMLA. We couldn’t afford-financially but especially emotionally-to keep fighting through appeals.
I don’t think that bankruptcy is the way to go. Besides the moral issues of not paying what you owe, we owe(outside of our mortgage) about $14,000 in debt-this includes the $4000 from our son’s surgery. We have no credit cards, checking accounts, IRA’s, etc. I would think that bankruptcy is for much larger amounts. Of course, at our wages, $14,000 is a fortune. However, I just believe that if I work harder/pray more, it’ll come out at the end. It is just a tough,rough patch that has been going on for so long, that I got depressed. It is living with that fear(maybe my lack of trust in God hummmm) that one more thing is going to hit us…
I would answer that our child should have-notice just this child-should have free basic medical care. However, notice that because we didn’t accept enough help, he can’t be disabled enough. So that makes me leary of the government deciding who gets help. Also, in this state, if a person receives SSI, then he gets free medical care. The amount of money a family can make is very low before a child loses the SSI which then loses the medical. We didn’t want/care about the SSI($32 mo), we just wanted the medical paid that our insurance company was not picking up.
On the up side, we are hoping/expecting that this child will be independent and supportive by the time he is 30. In spite of not having the government help. We mean that he will be working, having a social life, living on his own with no taxpayer support. He will probably always have charity given from the church, in fact he just started working for a man in our church. The man is PAYING him a fair wage and teaching him a craft. Not alot of hours, but it is a start. I say prayers for this man every day.

Bankruptcy is for the realy broke people or the realy rich corporations. We are still able to work hard.

It is really amazing how well you are doing despite all your challenges. I really admire you.

You are probably right about the bankruptcy option and for the right reasons, but it looks like you still need some debt rescheduling rather than getting it wiped out. I was worried when I heard about the collection agency, because usually hospitals and doctors will work out payment schedules and only use collection agencies for nonresponsive patients. They have to pay the collection agencies a percentage and would rather not do that.

Even when I was homeless and unemployed in 1994, at least I had good credit. Make sure you continue to deal with your creditors honestly and it will help you a lot later.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I am from Canada. Today I overheard my doctor talking to another doctor about a referral. The patient does not have a health card which means the govt won’t pay her health expenses. My doctor said that he had waived his fee and could the other doctor think about waiving her fee.

I am very happy with our health care here. Doesn’t mean we don’t have to fight to get it, just because it’s free. We are all obliged to educate ourselves and understand the system in which we have to operate.