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WilT
Guest
Polar Guy it doesn’t seem cool bringing tomdstone’s daughter in your conversation. It’s just not cool. I don’t blame him for answering your example.
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WilT
Guest
So what are we waiting for!
We are the supplier!!
They stole the weapons from the Iraqi army and the other half are the ones we “gave moderate rebels” in Syria.
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PolarGuy
Guest
Sorry, WilT, disagree. Quite strongly.
“Not cool?” Rape isn’t cool. I never said it was. Neither are beheadings, or crucifixions, both of which ISIL practices.
My point is simple: Evil exists; are there are innumerable examples of where violence can and in fact must be used to respond to it.
I injected rape of one’s daughter to drive home – with a piledriver – about the single most glaring example I could think of where a violent response is not only warranted but obligated, and where in my opinion failure to respond violently, to protect one’s daughter, is an abomination, and a complete abrogation of one’s duties to God and family…
…and yet Tomdstone STILL wouldn’t just say, “I’d use force to defend my daughter.”
Shame on him. And, frankly, shame on anyone who takes his side. It’s a cold world out there; we are our brothers’ keepers; and Timothysis’ point – that others would fail to act out of some misguided fear – is correct IMHO. Morality does not require us to be weak-kneed sissies - far from it, very, VERY far from it.
“Not cool?” Rape isn’t cool. I never said it was. Neither are beheadings, or crucifixions, both of which ISIL practices.
My point is simple: Evil exists; are there are innumerable examples of where violence can and in fact must be used to respond to it.
I injected rape of one’s daughter to drive home – with a piledriver – about the single most glaring example I could think of where a violent response is not only warranted but obligated, and where in my opinion failure to respond violently, to protect one’s daughter, is an abomination, and a complete abrogation of one’s duties to God and family…
…and yet Tomdstone STILL wouldn’t just say, “I’d use force to defend my daughter.”
Shame on him. And, frankly, shame on anyone who takes his side. It’s a cold world out there; we are our brothers’ keepers; and Timothysis’ point – that others would fail to act out of some misguided fear – is correct IMHO. Morality does not require us to be weak-kneed sissies - far from it, very, VERY far from it.
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WilT
Guest
No problem Polar Guy. I understand you completely. I saw a Jihadist recruitment piece and I was horrified at the atrocities. My first thought was to wipe them off the face of the Earth but looking at it through Catholic eyes I’ve had to restrain my anger. I also agree with Tomdstone in that we need to deal with ISIS immediately and effectively.
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Arandur
Guest
St. JPII’s quote seems to me to merely be a reflection on war, not a prescription for never engaging in it. Of course war is a failure. He wasn’t nullifying Just War principles that the Church has had for millennia. He was just pointing out that if one side forces the war, then that side has given in to sin and caused the very failure he mentions. Their victim MUST engage in the last resort Just War (for which our current Pope has explicitly stated the conditions are met with regard to ISIS, which also, BTW, means that he believes any reasonable attempts at diplomacy or negotiation have failed already). But a power waging a Just War does not bear responsibility for the start of the war, for the failure that he speaks of. They are not required to merely lay down arms and be massacred by the party that will hear nothing of negotiation.
Absolute pacifists seem to always ignore the moral duty to defend the innocent. You may make a choice for yourself to die rather than resist. But you are not allowed to make that choice for others, particularly others in your care. Domestically, every parent has a sacred duty to defend their children if possible. And governments have a moral duty to defend their citizens from unjust aggression, a moral duty to defend their allies similarly, and a moral duty to intervene in cases of egregious violations of human rights even beyond their borders if they are capable of doing so.
You have a moral duty to not stand by and let evil happen if you can reasonably stop, oppose, or at least diminish it.
Absolute pacifists, by ignoring these moral obligations, actually end up taking a position of subjugation under those who would forcibly do evil, valuing them more than their victims.
And when you recognize this, you have to ask yourself, how sick can you get? To value a lying child-raping murderer like these ISIS thugs more than even the little girls they are raping and murdering? Love the evil one, hate the innocent. Well, by ignoring the least of Christ’s little ones in such need, one might very well be joining the offenders in the place that they are going. Such a terrible distortion of true charity!
At the very least, we should see a comparison to criminals within our societies. Authorities don’t “negotiate” with a murderer or rapist who is about to commit yet another act. They intervene forcibly to try to stop them and apprehend them. If the perpetrator resists or attacks them (as ISIS thugs surely will), then whatever force is necessary to stop them is called for. Most likely, with the kind of weaponry and organization they have, you will have to kill many of them before you can capture any.
And any you can capture should be tried for atrocities and crimes against humanity and, at the very least, sent to rot in a comfortless maximum security prison for the rest of their natural lives.
There’s no “negotiation” for that. That’s just seeing justice done. Every last member of ISIS is at least complicit in these acts, and so justice demands that ALL be rounded up by any means necessary, put to trial, and submitted to the appropriate penalty.
We broke it. We own it. It’s our responsibility. And the only effective way (and most just way of prosecution) is with boots on the ground. It sucks. But it’s reality.
Go send the stories and footage to our Marines. You’ll have 2 Marines for every ISIS thug signing up enthusiastically to put these child-raping murderers to judgment–either that of man or by sending them directly before God. We’ll see if they can muster some regret and repentance when they face a U.S. Marine Corps filled with righteous fury. That taste of God’s wrath before their own eternal judgment might be the only thing sufficient to shake them into a repentance that could possibly offer them a sliver of hope for salvation. In light of eternity, I’d view it as us doing them a service.
Absolute pacifists seem to always ignore the moral duty to defend the innocent. You may make a choice for yourself to die rather than resist. But you are not allowed to make that choice for others, particularly others in your care. Domestically, every parent has a sacred duty to defend their children if possible. And governments have a moral duty to defend their citizens from unjust aggression, a moral duty to defend their allies similarly, and a moral duty to intervene in cases of egregious violations of human rights even beyond their borders if they are capable of doing so.
You have a moral duty to not stand by and let evil happen if you can reasonably stop, oppose, or at least diminish it.
Absolute pacifists, by ignoring these moral obligations, actually end up taking a position of subjugation under those who would forcibly do evil, valuing them more than their victims.
And when you recognize this, you have to ask yourself, how sick can you get? To value a lying child-raping murderer like these ISIS thugs more than even the little girls they are raping and murdering? Love the evil one, hate the innocent. Well, by ignoring the least of Christ’s little ones in such need, one might very well be joining the offenders in the place that they are going. Such a terrible distortion of true charity!
At the very least, we should see a comparison to criminals within our societies. Authorities don’t “negotiate” with a murderer or rapist who is about to commit yet another act. They intervene forcibly to try to stop them and apprehend them. If the perpetrator resists or attacks them (as ISIS thugs surely will), then whatever force is necessary to stop them is called for. Most likely, with the kind of weaponry and organization they have, you will have to kill many of them before you can capture any.
And any you can capture should be tried for atrocities and crimes against humanity and, at the very least, sent to rot in a comfortless maximum security prison for the rest of their natural lives.
There’s no “negotiation” for that. That’s just seeing justice done. Every last member of ISIS is at least complicit in these acts, and so justice demands that ALL be rounded up by any means necessary, put to trial, and submitted to the appropriate penalty.
Interesting. So let others fight in our stead. That’s all well and good, if it works. Of course, I do think we need to be trying to get them to do it. But they will be more brutal, cause more collateral damage, and be less effective (at least in the short term, costing many more lives) than NATO would be.
We broke it. We own it. It’s our responsibility. And the only effective way (and most just way of prosecution) is with boots on the ground. It sucks. But it’s reality.
Go send the stories and footage to our Marines. You’ll have 2 Marines for every ISIS thug signing up enthusiastically to put these child-raping murderers to judgment–either that of man or by sending them directly before God. We’ll see if they can muster some regret and repentance when they face a U.S. Marine Corps filled with righteous fury. That taste of God’s wrath before their own eternal judgment might be the only thing sufficient to shake them into a repentance that could possibly offer them a sliver of hope for salvation. In light of eternity, I’d view it as us doing them a service.
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