How should we deal with Catholics who are badly mistaken about matters of Catholic tradition?

[Bill_B_NY]

The forms of Mass and how Mass is celebrated isn’t the issue. The issue is that Catholics are ill catechized and their Faith is being subverted by the secular world. IMO

Understood, but we are permitted to view things differently.
How the Mass is celebrated is something. We can observe, understand and draw conclusions. The Church allows us to do this.
I do not say we are allowed to attack the official rites in public on a forum. On the contrary.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Have you travelled much outside of Louisiana?

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Well, actually - you’re on the right point here!! Yes, that’s it.

 

[Michael16]

@Bill_B_NY,

I’m not attacking you for your opinions. All I’m saying is, as a Church; we have bigger fish to fry than worrying about liturgical details that are best left to theologians and the Magisterium.

That’s all.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Thank you Cajun. Happy New Year.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Understood, Michael. Thanks.

 

[Michael16]

Happy New Year, @(name removed by moderator)

 

[Michael16]

Thanks, @(name removed by moderator)

 

[InThePew]

We should care that Jesus is given the best possible worship we can offer. Let’s not give him something sloppy that we do not care about. Doesn’t He deserve our very best offering?

Absolutely - as my mother would say when I was growing up “if it’s worth doing at all for God it’s worth doing well”!

People who attend the EF seek it out for various reasons. That’s what I’m talking about.

Definitely, and, in many cases, it’s because they find it much more reverent than the OF masess they typically experience. Put another way, if you’ve had nothing but TV dinners you’re entire life and then are treated to a roast with all the trimmings not only are you going to be thinking that this is the best meal you’ve ever had but you’re also going to be wanting more of the same! Sadly, I’ve sat though some OF masses which could best be described as a funny form of penance! What endears people to the EF isn’t not so much giving communion to all comers or celebrating in only a stole, but much more mundane things and a generally casual attitude to the sacrifice of the mass. Still, there’s an abundance of richness and variety in the OF which is, sadly, overlooked all too often.

I agree. There’s a movement now to attribute authority only to past popes and bishops, and maybe only a selection of them. My name for this movement is Solo Traditio. It ignores the authority of the current pope and bishops.

Otherwise known as schism! As much as we might like to, we can’t pick and choose which authority we follow and which we don’t for the simple reason that anarchy would otherwise result.

 

[commenter]

Otherwise known as schism! As much as we might like to, we can’t pick and choose which authority we follow and which we don’t for the simple reason that anarchy would otherwise result.

Websites justify disobedience to the current pope and bishop by citing dead ones, invariably out of context. But if current officials have no authority, why should the writings of former ones have it?

Many websites that have cited sections of “Pascendi”, Encyclical of St Pius X, boast of their “Independence” from the local bishop as if this were a virtue. But if you read the actual Pascendi, you see they are actually defying St Pius X.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Put another way, if you’ve had nothing but TV dinners you’re entire life and then are treated to a roast with all the trimmings not only are you going to be thinking that this is the best meal you’ve ever had but you’re also going to be wanting more of the same!

I wonder how good of an analogy this actually is. I know, analogies have limits. But this one stood out to me because it conveyed to me what I think about the current EF Mass. That being, that it’s indulgent and primarily self serving. I don’t mean that the pre VII Mass was indulgent, because I believe it was somewhat different and was the only one available etc. But the attitude with which the EF Mass is celebrated today seems pretentious to me. So with that analogy…a roast with all the trimmings is pretty indulgent, isn’t it. Some OF Masses may be TV dinners (bland or lacking in nutrition, I’m not sure which you mean) but I think those are the exception, and I’m not sure if I’ve ever been to one.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Websites justify disobedience to the current pope and bishop by citing dead ones, invariably out of context

Authority is not dictatorial and everything a pope says is not authoritative and many things “dead” popes said in the past are still authoritative

boast of their “Independence” from the local bishop as if this were a virtue.

I’m not sure what you mean by independent from local bishop except for what has possibly been said in other threads about blogs and videos not approved by their bishop.

Vatican II encouraged greater lay participation in evangelizing, defending and speaking out for the faith without always getting permission first. I think we are seeing the fruits of that encouragement.

 

[commenter]

Vatican II encouraged greater lay participation in evangelizing, defending and speaking out for the faith without always getting permission first.

The part in bold is from the supposed “spirit of Vatican 2” rather than the actual Council. This is why I say ministries such as 1P5, Lepanto, CM, Rorate, etc aren’t really the opposite of National Catholic Reporter, Call to Action, Catholics for Choice, etc.

These independents appear different but follow a similar path.

 

[Michael16]

@commenter,

What do you guys mean by without permission first from the local bishop?

 

[commenter]

@commenter,

What do you guys mean by without permission first from the local bishop?

Actual Catholic apostolates, such as EWTN, Catholic Answers, and other, have a relationship with the bishop in their local diocese.

 

[Michael16]

I think I get it, @commenter:

The preferred route is to act in concert with the bishop?

 

[commenter]

I think I get it, @commenter:

The preferred route is to act in concert with the bishop?

I am uncomfortable with that requirement but see its need. What if you have a bishop you disagree with? But countless orthodox Catholic ministries have managed to be effective, but still have that relationship. Think of it as another set of eyes.

This is why Pope St. Pius and others stated it. If you think it unnecessary in 2020, look up Catholics for Choice.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The part in bold is from the supposed “spirit of Vatican 2” rather than the actual Council.

Lumen Gentium 33 :

The laity are gathered together in the People of God and make up the Body of Christ under one head. Whoever they are they are called upon, as living members, to expend all their energy for the growth of the Church and its continuous sanctification, since this very energy is a gift of the Creator and a blessing of the Redeemer.

The lay apostolate, however, is a participation in the salvific mission of the Church itself. Through their baptism and confirmation all are commissioned to that apostolate by the Lord Himself. Moreover, by the sacraments, especially holy Eucharist, that charity toward God and man which is the soul of the apostolate is communicated and nourished. Now the laity are called in a special way to make the Church present and operative in those places and circumstances where only through them can it become the salt of the earth. Thus every layman, in virtue of the very gifts bestowed upon him, is at the same time a witness and a living instrument of the mission of the Church itself "according to the measure of Christ’s bestowal".

If every Catholic had to have permission from his bishop before starting a blog, doing a youtube video, a twitter account, a news source then no one would be able to speak out about the faith. We ourselves would no longer be able to defend the faith here even on this forum.

It wasn’t the spirit of Vatican II. Bishop Athansius Schneider said four great things came out of Vatican II: the universal call to holiness, the role of the laity in witnessing and defending the faith, the family as the domestic Church and the role of Our Lady as the Mother of the Church.

If you think it unnecessary in 2020, look up Catholics for Choice.

They are not defending Catholic truths but worldly evils.

It is also every Catholics responsibility to learn and be obedient to the teachings of the Church, so not to be decieved by those such as Catholics for Choice.

 

[Michael16]

@MagdalenaRita and @commenter,

I’m not denying Lumen Gentium or saying we need to keep our mouths shut unless our bishops give their assent.

I’m thinking commenter has a good point:

Let’s keep our evangelization efforts in line with Holy Mother Church’s teaching, that it’s better to work with our bishop as assistants to his ministry and making sure that we double check ourselves so we’re not going off the rails.

Am I making any sense, Mag?

 

[paperwight]

I’m horrified that a PRIEST would tell non Catholics that they could receive at Mass.

I’m a layman with only four years as a Catholic and I know that only Confirmed Catholics in a state of grace can receive.

I’m afraid you have been told wrongly, or have misunderstood what you were told.

Someone does NOT need to be confirmed to receive Holy Communion. In some dioceses, there is a gap of several years between First Holy Communion and Confirmation.

As to being ‘horrified’ - when you have been a Catholic a bit longer, you will learn that there are differences (legitimate ones) between different dioceses, and different countries. In my archdiocese in the UK, there is provision for non-Catholics to receive at such sensitive events as funerals, provided that they sincerely believe in the Real Presence, and that permission is asked by the priest of the Archbishop beforehand.