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Bill_B_NY
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Agreed. We are permitted to make that kind of analysis and reach that judgement. The Church allows us to choose the EF for reasons like these you gave.
How should we deal with Catholics who are badly mistaken about matters of Catholic tradition?
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commenter
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Bill_B_NY
Guest
Lay associations do not need permission from the bishop to carry out activities. They do need authorization to call themselves “Catholic” in their title.
How something like National Catholic Reporter can get away with that is just an example of the injustice that our bishops sometimes fall into. They’re fallible men and they can make bad decisions sometimes.
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commenter
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The bishops did their job regarding National Catholic Reporter. It is not an approved ministry.commenter:
Lay associations do not need permission from the bishop to carry out activities. They do need authorization to call themselves “Catholic” in their title.
How something like National Catholic Reporter can get away with that is just an example of the injustice that our bishops sometimes fall into. They’re fallible men and they can make bad decisions sometimes.
Many websites advertise, or imply as Catholic even though they don’t have that word in the their title. This goes against the Church as well, if they are not in union with their Ordinary.
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Bill_B_NY
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We are to say they are not. The bishops can be very weak and very mistaken. That group should not be permitted to use the Catholic name. They stopped Michael Voris from using it. Is he worse than a pro-abortion group?
We should be sickened about this. Yes. And we can freely say that it’s a problem that must be solved.
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MagdalenaRita
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So, no one is denying we should not speak charitably or speak correctly regarding Holy Mother Church’s teaching. Absolutely that should be done and every individual Catholic should study and know what they are saying is truly Church teaching and if corrected be willing to accept that. I am not denying that. And yes we should work with our bishops, respect and obey them to the best of our ability but we certainly can not expect our bishops to okay every blog, youtube or Catholic website that is out there today. Also, sadly many bishops themselves have swayed from Church teaching and are promoting worldliness, so as Bishop Fulton Sheen said:
Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and your religious act like religious. – Fulton J. Sheen
Also in all charity, yes you are making sense, though, I do prefer Magdalena as my name.
If that is where Catholics are going to learn the faith (Catholics for Choice or any white spremacists group) they have already swayed from the truth. When I say learn the faith, I mean Scripture, Catholic bible studies and catechisms.
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Bill_B_NY
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Then why can they use the title “Catholic”?
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commenter
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The word is not legally copyrighted.commenter:
Then why can they use the title “Catholic”?
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Bill_B_NY
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I don’t think you understood. I mentioned Michael Voris:
In December 2011, the archdiocese publicly released two press releases holding that the digital station realcatholictv.com was not permitted to use the word “Catholic” within its name according to their reading of canon law.[5]
In an episode of “The Vortex” coinciding with a June 12, 2012, move to a new studio building, Voris announced that the digital television company would be switching to a new name with a new website: “ChurchMilitant.tv”.
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commenter
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I bolded the important part. Keep in mind he did not say laity should take over the job of bishop, or act independently of him, or evaluate him. That’s what Catholics for Choice or Lepanto are doing, not what ++Sheen urged us to do.
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commenter
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To his credit Mr Voris changed the name of his apostolate. He was partially obedient.
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MagdalenaRita
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I agree we can’t take over their job and yes there are websites and blogs or whatever that have gone too far or do not speak correctly… but if we stop one from speaking then who is next? Who will be able to defend the faith if we start shutting people down? Again, this forum would have to stop alot of conversations.
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MagdalenaRita
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I do not see how the bishops did their job regarding National Catholic Reporter.commenter:
Then why can they use the title “Catholic”?
Some of the very left, liberal, Catholic clergy with pull consider them an approved site for Catholic teaching and included them on their approved Catholic website list, even to the point of excluding EWTN.
I highly dislike hearing Catholics say things that are not Catholic teaching as if they are and mislead people but I ask myself who is it that wants Catholics to be quiet and stop spreading the truth? Do we really want to tell Catholics to be quiet.
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I would hardly refer to EWTN, Catholic Answers, Catholics United for the Faith, and hundreds of orthodox ministries in union with the Church as “quiet”. I would put these ministries, many of which are vehemently pushing for reforms, on one side of the line.
On the other side are the rogues, left and right, together on same side of the line.
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MagdalenaRita
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I agree, they are not. They are very good and there are many other good Catholic ministries out there. I am just saying if we start telling the one’s who say things we don’t like to be quiet then next others will have to be quiet also.
Yes, I would agree, though again it is up to each individual person to be sure what they are reading or hearing is true Catholic teaching and not rely on these places for truth.
Also, I think some are speaking out when they see corruption because many people did not speak out while the clergy sex abuse crisis was happening because they believed they couldn’t say anything about their priests.
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Emeraldlady
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Who gets to make that call? Just ourselves?
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MagdalenaRita
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No absolutely not. We do not decide what is authoritative or not but yes we are to learn and study our faith and know what is dogma, doctrine and discipline and what is authoritative and what is not.
The Church teaches us and tells us when something is dogma, doctrine, discipline and also what levels of authority different documents hold.
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Emeraldlady
New member
Can you tell me which type of documents I’m bound by and which I can dismiss out of hand. Do I have to accept encyclicals for example? Can I decide what encyclicals I’ll submit to and which I can make my own judgements about?Emeraldlady:
No absolutely not. We do not decide what is authoritative or not but yes we are to learn and study our faith and know what is dogma, doctrine and discipline and what is authoritative and what is not.
The Church teaches us and tells us when something is dogma, doctrine, discipline and also what levels of authority different documents hold.
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EndTimes
Guest
How should we deal with Catholics who are badly mistaken about matters of Catholic tradition?
INSTRUCT THEM - 2 Parts. PART 1
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
**[75] "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
**[77] "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
**[78] This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
INSTRUCT THEM - 2 Parts. PART 1
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
**[75] "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
- orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
- in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34
**[77] "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
**[78] This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
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EndTimes
Guest
PART 2 – TRADITION
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
**[80] "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
**[81] " Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
**[83] The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
**[80] "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
**[81] " Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
**[83] The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.
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