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MagdalenaRita
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It is my understanding that popes will say what category each document falls into and with what authority each document holds.
Most important thing to do is study the catechisms.
How should we deal with Catholics who are badly mistaken about matters of Catholic tradition?
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Most important thing to do is study the catechisms.
Emeraldlady
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That doesn’t help me at all. Humanae Vitae is an encyclical for example, that condemns contraception, but if that actual document is one that doesn’t carry a lot of weight, that probably explains why so many Catholics feel free to use contraception, correct?Emeraldlady:
It is my understanding that popes will say what category each document falls into and with what authority each document holds.
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Most important thing to do is study the catechisms.
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Bill_B_NY
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You’re joking, right?
Emeraldlady
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I’m asking for good legitimate reasoning behind judging which teachings of the Church we submit to and which we can dismiss.Emeraldlady:
You’re joking, right?
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Bill_B_NY
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How about if you find a certified spiritual director?
Emeraldlady
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I am already one of those lifelong Catholics that has always submitted to and obeyed every single teaching of the Church. I want to understand how modern Catholics (both liberal and traditionalist) determine which teachings we must submit to and which we can dismiss.Emeraldlady:
How about if you find a certified spiritual director?
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Bill_B_NY
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Ok, I just meant that you seemed confused and were looking for answers. A good spiritual director or parish priest can help you quite a lot.
Emeraldlady
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Yes I did the Spiritual Exercises (19th Annotation) in 2011 and have gone to spiritual direction on and off since then. Very profitable but having done that work I am only more convinced of the soundness of submission and obedience to all Church teaching guarded by the Holy Spirit.Emeraldlady:
Ok, I just meant that you seemed confused and were looking for answers. A good spiritual director or parish priest can help you quite a lot.
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MagdalenaRita
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So if you were wondering how much authority is behind a particular document whether it be Humanae Vitae or others, you look it up. Read and find out. I can’t tell you what all the documents are that are out there, what authority each one holds. Nor would I even try. That again is why I say study the catechisms, Baltimore, Roman Catechism, and the Catechism of the Catholic church.
I, also am a lifelong Catholic and I can tell you that my whole Catholic life has been one of learning daily what the Church teaches and have come to be obedient by learning and I am still learning. I am sure there are still things I know I need to come to understand.
Again, study. Read scripture and the catechisms.
As you absolutely should be and so should every Catholic.
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Bill_B_NY
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It sounds good.
Many important matters are not governed by official Church teachings and are open for judgement. In other cases, Church teachings themselves can be changed (not all of them). But I think it’s best for some of us not to be concerned about such matters and instead to focus on what is known and certain and follow your spiritual director. That will be much safer.
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Bill_B_NY
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I would take it farther if you are seeking to understand.
Read the history of Councils and of Heresies.
Most importantly, read the lives of Saints and Holy Reformers in the Church.
Emeraldlady
New member
I’m very familiar with the Catechism. But it doesn’t tell me if an encyclical can be dismissed if my judgement tells me so. When you state that not all Church teachings need to be followed if you don’t believe it is authoritative, you need to have a proper answer as to how to judge that lest you lead new and young Christians astray.Emeraldlady:
So if you were wondering how much authority is behind a particular document whether it be Humanae Vitae or others, you look it up. Read and find out. I can’t tell you what all the documents are that are out there, what authority each one holds. Nor would I even try. That again is why I say study the catechisms, Baltimore, Roman Catechism, and the Catechism of the Catholic church.
And when one has studied and read Scripture and the catechisms, use your own judgement? That’s the message I’m seeing new and young Catholics picking up.Emeraldlady:
Again, study. Read scripture and the catechisms.
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MagdalenaRita
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I have read through the Catechism also and I don’t think I would know what it completely says without serious study of it.
So, as I said earlier for each individual document and many documents are not encyclicals and some are, you yourself find the proper answer as to whether or not that particular document is infallible, or just to be taken seriously or is just pastoral.
I also NEVER said that not all Church teachings need to be followed but that not all words of popes, bishops and priests are infallible Church teaching.
Well I’m not very young and I have never heard anyone say that nor imply that
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Emeraldlady
New member
Traditionalist who say things like “Authority is not dictatorial and everything a pope says is not authoritative and many things “dead” popes said in the past are still authoritative” … must also be prepared to present very clear reasoning for what you can and can’t ignore from Church teaching. If I tell my children that the instruction of Laudato si you can take or leave but the instruction of Humanae Vitae you must fully accept, I’m going to be able to tell them why one encyclical is more authoritative than the other, otherwise the only conclusion they’ll draw is that it’s a matter of personal judgement.Emeraldlady:
Well I’m not very young and I have never heard anyone say that nor imply that
Can you see what I’m saying?
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nearlycatholic
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I find that true in life in general. Can’t tell you how many times I have been absolutely certain I was right to find out how wrong I was. So glad that God was more patient than I.
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MagdalenaRita
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First, again, I never said ignore Church teaching. That is misunderstanding what I am saying.
It would also be good to be able to tell your children what authoritative level each document falls under and what each Pope says about each document.
Humanae Vitae and Laudato Si are encyclicals. Amoris Laetitea is an apostolic exhortation. One carries more authoritative weight than the other. It isnt that one encyclical or one apostolic letter or apostolic exhortation is more authoritative than the others in its respective category but what category each document written falls under.
The pope is not our dictator. He is our shepherd, our father. Certain things he says are infallible and some are not.
It would also be good to be able to tell your children what authoritative level each document falls under and what each Pope says about each document.
Humanae Vitae and Laudato Si are encyclicals. Amoris Laetitea is an apostolic exhortation. One carries more authoritative weight than the other. It isnt that one encyclical or one apostolic letter or apostolic exhortation is more authoritative than the others in its respective category but what category each document written falls under.
The pope is not our dictator. He is our shepherd, our father. Certain things he says are infallible and some are not.
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Michael16
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@MagdalenaRita and @Emeraldlady,
Ladies, please; we don’t need to fight.
I’m a recent convert ( Easter Vigil 2016 ) and I submit to everything the Magisterium teaches because I don’t have the authority to decide what to obey and what to not.
So I obey by default.
To do otherwise is the Protestant way and that way leads to heresy and chaos.
We’re all good Catholics here and that’s why we’re debating the issues on this thread.
Ladies, please; we don’t need to fight.
I’m a recent convert ( Easter Vigil 2016 ) and I submit to everything the Magisterium teaches because I don’t have the authority to decide what to obey and what to not.
So I obey by default.
To do otherwise is the Protestant way and that way leads to heresy and chaos.
We’re all good Catholics here and that’s why we’re debating the issues on this thread.
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MagdalenaRita
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I’m sorry if it appears as fighting or even if @Emerallady feels that way but I was under the impression we were just conversing or debating the issues on this thread.
Welcome to the Church and yes please be obedient to the Magisterium and all of Church teaching because absolutely no one is saying to do otherwise.
That’s true, we are debating the issues
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Michael16
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It’s okay, @MagdalenaRita,
It just seemed to me that maybe you felt that @Emeraldlady was hurting your feelings and you got defensive.
My basic point here is this: I’ve read the part of Lumen Gentium that says we laity are the boots on the ground and leaven in the bread of the secular world. We’re the first line of evangelization and I fully see the Fathers’ point and I obey and do.
I agree that we as lay evangelists could use the leeway to spread the Word without always going to the bishop for permission first.
To do so would shut our mouths and limit our flexibility to react fluidly as circumstances require.
However, I think that we laity need to double check ourselves with deep study and recourse to our authorities in the Church that whatever we say or do is in line.
As for the horrors of “ Catholics for Choice “ and other “ Catholic “ sources; I agree we have to verify whatever media sources we reference are teaching what Holy Mother Church teaches.
It just seemed to me that maybe you felt that @Emeraldlady was hurting your feelings and you got defensive.
My basic point here is this: I’ve read the part of Lumen Gentium that says we laity are the boots on the ground and leaven in the bread of the secular world. We’re the first line of evangelization and I fully see the Fathers’ point and I obey and do.
I agree that we as lay evangelists could use the leeway to spread the Word without always going to the bishop for permission first.
To do so would shut our mouths and limit our flexibility to react fluidly as circumstances require.
However, I think that we laity need to double check ourselves with deep study and recourse to our authorities in the Church that whatever we say or do is in line.
As for the horrors of “ Catholics for Choice “ and other “ Catholic “ sources; I agree we have to verify whatever media sources we reference are teaching what Holy Mother Church teaches.
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MagdalenaRita
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No, no one has hurt my feelings. I just need to clarify and also with your last post again clarify, no one is saying, nor have I said, ignore Church teaching but rather study it. You can’t obey what you don’t know.
Yes, you might notice I agreed with you on this earlier here and in a previous post. You are very correct.
Also, you will notice in my posts this is how the rest of the conversation we are having regarding authority started. I suggested to be very cautious with websites but rather study the faith through the scriptures, catechisms and Catholic bible studies.
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