How should we stand on illegal immigrants in the US?

[theCrow]

How about we ask the native Americans how we should stand on illegal immigrants.

Imagine there’s no countries, it’s easy if you try.
No Hell below us, above us only sky

 

[Arandur]

If I lived in Central America, I have no doubt that I would give serious consideration to sneaking across the border, unless I could figure out a scheme to get here legally. On the other hand, as a society we cannot have both open borders and a welfare state.

Yes, there are simply limited resources and practical difficulties in maintaining an orderly society if there are no effective borders.

The Church recognizes a nation’s right to maintain its borders and define its citizenship, and does not require a welfare state.

The general principles that guide my opinion are that:

1. We must, first, seek to uphold the dignity of the people immigrating; that entails fighting against dehumanizing them, while caring for their needs and seeking justice when they are wronged.
2. We must seek to eliminate injustice: this would entail fighting crime caused by such immigrants, as well as all the factors that lead to it–the underculture of illegality, the coyotes, the drug smuggling business, the political rebelliousness of “reconquista,” the abuse of minors, human trafficking, etc (ALL of these things are made MUCH WORSE by a “porous” border and lax policy against illegal immigration, by the way, which makes those two things, themselves, a huge and serious issue of injustice!)
3. We should make it much easier to unite immigrant families. After that principle, we should also make it easier to immigrate in general (faster processing of legal applications and screening, higher quotas, though not necessarily any lower requirements)
4. We should honestly and strongly seek (with the application of resources and direct aid) to remedy the conditions that are causing so many to want to take such risks to immigrate. This means expert counsel, infrastructure projects, monetary aid, better trade policies (and other political agreements), educational assistance, and assistance in fighting crime, corruption, and the massive cartel problems in the source countries.
5. Any policy approach likely does need to include securing the border first; fair and just deportation of new and recent immigrants (fair and just would take family relations into consideration); and then providing a reasonable path to citizenship for those who have been here working and living honestly for a significant period of time.

Both parties have it wrong, BTW, because they are at opposite extremes and not listening to the important aspects of each others’ approaches.

 

[Joe_5859]

Seriously? Is welfare in ANY state tied to citizenship? Here in Massachusetts, “undocumented residents” (or whatever euphemism one chooses to use) get EBT cards (i.e., what used to be food stamps, except EBT cards can be used in ATM machines for cash - and state studies find one popular site for getting cash is Orlando/Disney), subsidized Section 8 housing, free medical care, virtual immunity from prosecution for driving without a license, the availability of numerous “sanctuary cities” where the police are forbidden from arresting them for immigration violations, and an attorney general who has publicly stated that “It’s not illegal to be an illegal immigrant in Massachusetts.”

My question was intended as a genuine one, not a snarky comeback. I guess I always assumed that a person would need to provide their social security number when they apply for such state-funded benefits. Perhaps it varies from one part of the country to the next.

 

[Joe_5859]

Yes, there are simply limited resources and practical difficulties in maintaining an orderly society if there are no effective borders.

The Church recognizes a nation’s right to maintain its borders and define its citizenship, and does not require a welfare state.

The general principles that guide my opinion are that:

1. We must, first, seek to uphold the dignity of the people immigrating; that entails fighting against dehumanizing them, while caring for their needs and seeking justice when they are wronged.
2. We must seek to eliminate injustice: this would entail fighting crime caused by such immigrants, as well as all the factors that lead to it–the underculture of illegality, the coyotes, the drug smuggling business, the political rebelliousness of “reconquista,” the abuse of minors, human trafficking, etc **(ALL of these things are made MUCH WORSE by a “porous” border and lax policy against illegal immigration, by the way, which makes those two things, themselves, a huge and serious issue of injustice!)
3. We should make it much easier** to unite immigrant families. After that principle, we should also make it easier to immigrate in general (faster processing of legal applications and screening, higher quotas, though not necessarily any lower requirements)
4. We should honestly and strongly seek (with the application of resources and direct aid) to remedy the conditions that are causing so many to want to take such risks to immigrate. This means expert counsel, infrastructure projects, monetary aid, better trade policies (and other political agreements), educational assistance, and assistance in fighting crime, corruption, and the massive cartel problems in the source countries.
5. Any policy approach likely does need to include securing the border first; fair and just deportation of new and recent immigrants (fair and just would take family relations into consideration); and then providing a reasonable path to citizenship for those who have been here working and living honestly for a significant period of time.

Both parties have it wrong, BTW, because they are at opposite extremes and not listening to the important aspects of each others’ approaches.

Those sound like some pretty sensible general principles to me.

 

[Neofight]

How can someone make use of the public welfare system if they are not citizens?

And, it’s doubtful if many (or any) would say the reason they were coming to America was to receive welfare!

 

[sw85]

How about we ask the native Americans how we should stand on illegal immigrants.

Imagine there’s no countries, it’s easy if you try.
No Hell below us, above us only sky

The colonists weren’t immigrants, they were colonists. And they weren’t illegal, since there was no rule of law concerning immigration at the time.

If you disapprove of the right of conquest, I’m sure you could clarify your opposition by finding a descendant of those same Natives and giving him/her your house in reparation.

 

[runningdude]

While I don’t agree with mistreating them, or viewing them less than human, I struggle a bit with knowing where I should stand on this issue. If my parish wanted to give canned food to illegal immigrants, possibly even shelter, I’d feel conflicted.

I believe in loving and helping those in need, but I’m against ignoring the laws set in place. I think it’s wrong that they’re here, and I think it’ll possibly created a mess of issue to allow them to stay here. However, I sympathize with their struggle to flee troubles in their countries, and the need to eat.

Giving to people in need is noble.

Open endedly encouraging an endless stream of low skilled individuals who will need to depend of hand outs once here is not moral.

 

[Kamaduck]

While I don’t agree with mistreating them, or viewing them less than human, I struggle a bit with knowing where I should stand on this issue. If my parish wanted to give canned food to illegal immigrants, possibly even shelter, I’d feel conflicted.

I believe in loving and helping those in need, but I’m against ignoring the laws set in place. I think it’s wrong that they’re here, and I think it’ll possibly created a mess of issue to allow them to stay here. However, I sympathize with their struggle to flee troubles in their countries, and the need to eat.

There’s a difference between holding the political opinion that we must control the flow of people coming in, and blatantly ignoring the needs of people who are already here. If they’re here, they need to eat. They need protection from the elements. Whether they should be allowed to stay is another matter, but at the moment they need help and it’s better for everyone if they’re off the streets.

So don’t feel conflicted about it. Vote according to your conscience, but don’t feel guilty for giving your fellow man what he needs to survive.

 

[theCrow]

The colonists weren’t immigrants, they were colonists. And they weren’t illegal, since there was no rule of law concerning immigration at the time.

If you disapprove of the right of conquest, I’m sure you could clarify your opposition by finding a descendant of those same Natives and giving him/her your house in reparation.

Tell that to the next person who takes your home in the name of conquest.

I’m from New Mexico so I have many friends on the reservations there. They might disagree with your quote about the colonists “not being illegal since there was no rule of law”

 

[Petaro]

I feel like parts of this are sarcasm.

Do you think so? Like most I am split down the middle with the problem, not only of illegal immigrants but of our lifestyle in general. I believe we have the right to live as our community does, but the disparity of lifestyle between the west and the rest. What does our Christ want of us? I don’t know. Sorry if my dilemma put the opposites together with too much clarity.

 

[Magdalena59]

While I don’t agree with mistreating them, or viewing them less than human, I struggle a bit with knowing where I should stand on this issue. If my parish wanted to give canned food to illegal immigrants, possibly even shelter, I’d feel conflicted.

I believe in loving and helping those in need, but I’m against ignoring the laws set in place. I think it’s wrong that they’re here, and I think it’ll possibly created a mess of issue to allow them to stay here. However, I sympathize with their struggle to flee troubles in their countries, and the need to eat.

I understand how you could be conflicted. Most of what we here comes from the news media and depending on which channel you watch you get a different side of the story and if you listen to both channels you hear each side and it leaves you more confused because each side sounds convincing.

I personally feel it is best to side with the Bishops on this one. They are our shepherds. They understand Catholic social teaching better than I do and so I prefer to listen and follow them rather than what I hear from the media. A quote from USCCB webpage on immigration:

The Israelites’ experience of living as homeless aliens was so painful and frightening that God ordered his people for all time to have special care for the alien: “You shall treat the alien who resides with you no differently than the natives born among you; have the same love for him as for yourself; for you too were once aliens in the land of Egypt” (Lv 19:33-34).

The New Testament begins with Matthew’s story of Joseph and Mary’s escape to Egypt with their newborn son, Jesus, because the paranoid and jealous King Herod wanted to kill the infant. Our Savior himself lived as a refugee because his own land was not safe.
Catholic Social Teaching On Immigration And The Movement Of Peoples

When I think of that I remember that most of us here in America are descendants of immigrants. My great, great grandmother came from Ireland and ran out of money as she headed west and she was just a young girl but due to the kindness of others who were already living here who gave her shelter, food and money she was able to finish her journey, meet up with the rest of her family, help establish a Catholic church in the very small town they lived in, which then brought non-Catholic family members in to the faith a few years later.

I wish my parish would reach out to them, I would be all for it. Here in this country we don’t know the kind of suffering they may be experiencing in their country and we don’t know what we might do if we were in a desperate situation wanting to feed our family.

I also feel it is better to work to change immigration laws and try working to fix the root problem. Building a bigger wall or fence or adding more soldiers doesn’t really address the problem. If you are desperate and hungry and poor and trying to get somewhere, you will figure out a way to get there, or die trying. I also read somewhere that is one of the bishops big concerns, the deaths of countless people trying to get to America.

I am glad to be Catholic as I see the bishops reaching out to them and giving us an example.

 

[Magdalena59]

How can someone make use of the public welfare system if they are not citizens?

 

[Magdalena59]

I’m sorry but this is not a fair comment to make about this situation. I have always worked hard all my life & tried to give to those less fortunate. I am not a wealthy person by any means, probably more lower middle class. Our faith teaches us to help the poor & I have every intention to do my best to help people in the future. But, last year my car was burglarized by?, you guessed it, an illegal immigrant. So, how’s that for Christian behavior? To say that I am conflicted about these massive amounts of people coming into our country with no skills to support themselves is an understatement. If we do not anticipate the coming potential diseases, crimes, social structure problems that comes with this situation we are guilty of stupidity.

With all due respect, and I am not trying to be mean because it is terrible to have your car broken in to and someone take something that belongs to you but it could just have easily have been someone who is a legal citizen of America. I think you would have still been very upset of someone burglarizing your property, citizen or non-citizen.

 

[Joe_5859]

With all due respect, and I am not trying to be mean because it is terrible to have your car broken in to and someone take something that belongs to you but it could just have easily have been someone who is a legal citizen of America. I think you would have still been very upset of someone burglarizing your property, citizen or non-citizen.

Right. We need to be careful about making overly broad generalizations based on our personal experience. Are some illegal immigrants unscrupulous criminals? Sure. So are some members of any category of human beings (Americans, non-Americans, disabled people, white people, black people, etc., etc.). Are all illegal immigrants unscrupulous criminals. I very much doubt that.

 

[Patti_M]

With all due respect, and I am not trying to be mean because it is terrible to have your car broken in to and someone take something that belongs to you but it could just have easily have been someone who is a legal citizen of America. I think you would have still been very upset of someone burglarizing your property, citizen or non-citizen.

With all respect back at ya, the only time my car has been burglarized, (my wheels & tires were stolen & my car left on cinder blocks) or for that matter the only time I have experienced theft of my property, was at the hands of an illegal alien. So to say that crime against me was caused 100% of the time by an illegal is an accurate & valid point. As I stated, I am by no means a wealthy person & had we not find my property on Craig’s List this criminal act would have had significant effect on me financially; by that I mean I would not have been able to get to work to support myself. I took this crime against me very personally. Maybe I shouldn’t have but I did.

 

[pnewton]

The colonists weren’t immigrants, they were colonists.

They most assuredly were immigrants. If the definition of a word is inconvenient, we should change our opinions instead of pretending words have different meanings. America is like an exclusive club. Everyone wants to be the last one in before everyone else is excluded.

Whatever our opinion is on immigration, Christians are obligated to adhere to the Golden Rule, meaning our opinion should be the same as if we were the one living in Central America. Likewise, if those first colonists were a Christian as they claimed, then would have treated the Indians as they themselves desired to be treated.

 

[pnewton]

So don’t feel conflicted about it. Vote according to your conscience, but don’t feel guilty for giving your fellow man what he needs to survive.

This is good advice. Probably in no other issue does hypocrisy rear its ugly head than in immigration. We can disagree as to various courses of actions, but must apply consistent moral principles if we wish to avoid sin in this area.

 

[Magdalena59]

With all respect back at ya, the only time my car has been burglarized, (my wheels & tires were stolen & my car left on cinder blocks) or for that matter the only time I have experienced theft of my property, was at the hands of an illegal alien. So to say that crime against me was caused 100% of the time by an illegal is an accurate & valid point. As I stated, I am by no means a wealthy person & had we not find my property on Craig’s List this criminal act would have had significant effect on me financially; by that I mean I would not have been able to get to work to support myself. I took this crime against me very personally. Maybe I shouldn’t have but I did.

I guess my next question would be, have you been burglarized by illegal immigrants before? Or did it just happen the once? and I certainly understand how upsetting it would be. I am sorry that happened and I would probably take it very hard also. That is a means of you getting to work. It should not have happened. My point is, it could have happened by someone who was a legal citizen.

 

[Magdalena59]

Right. We need to be careful about making overly broad generalizations based on our personal experience. Are some illegal immigrants unscrupulous criminals? Sure. So are some members of any category of human beings (Americans, non-Americans, disabled people, white people, black people, etc., etc.). Are all illegal immigrants unscrupulous criminals. I very much doubt that.

True.

 

[Patti_M]

I guess my next question would be, have you been burglarized by illegal immigrants before? Or did it just happen the once? and I certainly understand how upsetting it would be. I am sorry that happened and I would probably take it very hard also. That is a means of you getting to work. It should not have happened. My point is, it could have happened by someone who was a legal citizen.

But a legal citizen did not steal from me; it was an illegal alien. Of course a legal citizen could have stolen from me but that is not my circumstance. I suppose my point is that these poor people coming across our borders have no means to support themselves and there is a good possibility they may turn to crime; it is almost a certainty they will rely heavily on social services just for basic needs like food & shelter. When school starts up again it will be a nightmare for the public school system. All of this is already happening in my part of the country. I would rather donate to charities to help these people than be in a position, as a tax payer, of having no say as to where tax dollars are spent. Why can’t we go about our immigration policies as written instead of being put in this unbelievable situation?