How should women act so as not to draw undue attention?

[GraceDK]

This following was taking from the thread “It’s summer now. How would you show off your body”, but it sparked a related topic:

What would be considered acceptable mannerisms, methods of walking, sitting, standing, posture, etc that women should maintain in order to keep from drawing undue attention from men in regards to modesty? It seems that many women maintain that clothing doesn’t much matter so much as the actions of the wearer behind them. The claim was made that a fully dressed nun in habit could be more scandalous than a naked women who presents herself modestly. What actions would be considered unacceptable or immodest or even sinful for any woman to perform? making “come hither” glances, running, or exercising for example, stretching in public, lifting ones arms past a certain height, certain motions, etc…? What other actions come to mind that are unbecoming of a dignified woman who wishes to preserve the virtue of modesty and not lead others to sin? Or possibly a better question is, rather than ask what actions are sinful, what mannerisms should women use in order not to tempt others?
I believe there is a lot of good ideas which can be picked up from old Victorian sensibilities as to how women should act. Thoughts?

Lobster…
Its quite simple.
You are a human being too. The things that are not modest for you, in intention, movement, word, or attire, are not modest for women and vs… the things that are okay for you are also okay for women…
By the way I have one issue of modesty where its lacking in young men especially but also in many young women, and that’s how they talk… many of them talk very improper… like… once I was in a bus with a bunch of guys talking about how they were going to look at women’s anatomy. I didn’t even understand what they were talking about because it was so foul. My boyfriend later explained to me what they actually said…

 

[lobster]

Maybe women should just never go out in public. God forbid someone see an action or a piece of exposed skin that would lead them to sin.

So you are saying immodest dress and immodest actions actions are perfectly fine for a good Catholic woman trying to live her faith?

 

[lobster]

Lobster…
Its quite simple.
You are a human being too. The things that are not modest for you, in intention, movement, word, or attire, are not modest for women and vs… the things that are okay for you are also okay for women…
By the way I have one issue of modesty where its lacking in young men especially but also in many young women, and that’s how they talk… many of them talk very improper… like… once I was in a bus with a bunch of guys talking about how they were going to look at women’s anatomy. I didn’t even understand what they were talking about because it was so foul. My boyfriend later explained to me what they actually said…

Yes I agree.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

So you are saying immodest dress and immodest actions actions are perfectly fine for a good Catholic woman trying to live her faith?

I think it’s pretty obvious that the Good Catholic Woman you refer to wouldn’t dress immodestly or act immodestly-just based on the comments on this thread.

This is all about bashing other women that we see in the course of our daily activity for how they act or how they dress. It strikes me as “well thank God that I’m not like THEM” and “aren’t we glad that we know so much better than they do!”.

Our Priest mentioned dress for everyone just after Easter, it’s getting HOT down here. He outlined what was appropriate and what was not, but he also cautioned against the “Modesty Police”. This is the advice he gave: “Try this-next time you see someone dressing or acting immodestly, say a prayer for their soul and then forget about them. If they’re here in Church, I’ll deal with it. If they’re out in ‘the world’, the prayer will certainly help”

 

[GraceDK]

*We also have to be careful about judging others. When I see a woman at mass wearing shorts, maybe a teenager or a woman in her 20’s, let’s say. I don’t automatically assume that she wants bad attention. It’s hot in Florida, people tend to dress a bit more casual. I think that one should be mindful of what he/she is wearing to mass especially, but I think it’s important not to make that leap. We run the risk of sinning in the sense of judging others, without knowing their intent.

Also, when Jesus spoke to men about lusting after a woman in his heart/mind, and that would be considered adultery…think about that for a moment. It takes effort to keep looking at someone, or churn an image over in our minds, as to think about it lustfully. Lust isn’t looking at a woman, and noticing her beauty. That is not lust. Lust is when a man looks at a woman, then keeps looking …two, three, four glances, and then starts undressing her with his eyes, in his own mind. That is lust. That is what Jesus warns us of. Women can fantasize too. If I start fantasizing about another man, other than my husband…I’m commiting adultery in my mind and heart.

God wanted women to help men, not be a hindrance. Men at the same time, are expected to be strong, and be holy examples for women, too. So…we are a team in this. It isn’t women against men. Let’s start viewing it more like that. *

You go sista!
If everyone was as clear thinking and eloquent as you, this place would not be all that bad to live in I am on your side and Viktor Frankl’s too… That we all take full responsibility of our actions. By the way… I have one more example for the list… like I like candy and cakes soooo much. I would not blame society or the shops for selling it and thus “leading me into sin”… hehe… I gotta say no and not linger at the candy section… ( I am taking a cold turkey and its not easy for a sugar addict… gosh I am so tired…)

 

[whatevergirl]

You go sista!
If everyone was as clear thinking and eloquent as you, this place would not be all that bad to live in I am on your side and Viktor Frankl’s too… That we all take full responsibility of our actions. By the way… I have one more example for the list… like I like candy and cakes soooo much. I would not blame society or the shops for selling it and thus “leading me into sin”… hehe… I gotta say no and not linger at the candy section… ( I am taking a cold turkey and its not easy for a sugar addict… gosh I am so tired…)

*I’m suing Cold Stone Creamery for leading me to eat too much of their icecream! It sounds like a good argument, no? :ehh:

Thank you for the kind words, I notice you in different threads, and the feeling is mutual. :hug1:*

 

[Salonika]

Yesterday while I was walking to the bus stop wearing, as my top layer a full length red coat, a guy touched me on the shoulder and said “It’s good to see someone wearing colour instead of the usual black”.

Even if it does draw attention to me from some people - I’m not going into black or another dark colour which makes me feel depressed. Would you?

 

[lobster]

Yesterday while I was walking to the bus stop wearing, as my top layer a full length red coat, a guy touched me on the shoulder and said “It’s good to see someone wearing colour instead of the usual black”.

Even if it does draw attention to me from some people - I’m not going into black or another dark colour which makes me feel depressed. Would you?

The question isn’t how not to draw attention, rather how not to draw “undue” attention.

 

[RedSoxWife]

So decent Catholic women are deadly dull. We do not flirt. We do not act high-spirited. We expect a man to fall in love with us deeply enough to surrender his freedom by **not **attracting his attention. “Why, look at that girl over there. How well she blends with the others! How bland she is! Or wait… was it the one next to her I didn’t notice the most?”

Hmmmmm.

Modest and full aren’t the same thing. You don’t have to prance around half naked to attract attention. But you shouldn’t be sinful either. By our nation’s secular standards a lot of things that are good may be considered “dull.”

Since I found my way home to the Church I know that several of my friends probably think that I’m “dull” if not completely crazy… but they also don’t quite understand why I’m so much happier all of the time, because they don’t yet understand the peace and happiness that comes from God.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Women should act in whatever way they want so long as they are not violating the law through indecent exposure as an example. The idea that women should act a certain way so as not to attract a man’s attention to me is stupid. I mean, what are we? Fundamentalist Muslims?

We’re talking about attracting the wrong kind of attention, not attention in general.

 

[RedSoxWife]

*We also have to be careful about judging others. When I see a woman at mass wearing shorts, maybe a teenager or a woman in her 20’s, let’s say. I don’t automatically assume that she wants bad attention. It’s hot in Florida, people tend to dress a bit more casual. I think that one should be mindful of what he/she is wearing to mass especially, but I think it’s important not to make that leap. We run the risk of sinning in the sense of judging others, without knowing their intent.

Also, when Jesus spoke to men about lusting after a woman in his heart/mind, and that would be considered adultery…think about that for a moment. It takes effort to keep looking at someone, or churn an image over in our minds, as to think about it lustfully. Lust isn’t looking at a woman, and noticing her beauty. That is not lust. Lust is when a man looks at a woman, then keeps looking …two, three, four glances, and then starts undressing her with his eyes, in his own mind. That is lust. That is what Jesus warns us of. Women can fantasize too. If I start fantasizing about another man, other than my husband…I’m commiting adultery in my mind and heart.

God wanted women to help men, not be a hindrance. Men at the same time, are expected to be strong, and be holy examples for women, too. So…we are a team in this. It isn’t women against men. Let’s start viewing it more like that. *

I know lots of other people have already said it, but I haven’t had a chance to be on the forum and I wanted to add it too: Great point! Very well said!

 

[RedSoxWife]

I think it’s pretty obvious that the Good Catholic Woman you refer to wouldn’t dress immodestly or act immodestly-just based on the comments on this thread.

This is all about bashing other women that we see in the course of our daily activity for how they act or how they dress. It strikes me as “well thank God that I’m not like THEM” and “aren’t we glad that we know so much better than they do!”.

Our Priest mentioned dress for everyone just after Easter, it’s getting HOT down here. He outlined what was appropriate and what was not, but he also cautioned against the “Modesty Police”. This is the advice he gave: “Try this-next time you see someone dressing or acting immodestly, say a prayer for their soul and then forget about them. If they’re here in Church, I’ll deal with it. If they’re out in ‘the world’, the prayer will certainly help”

I don’t think it’s all about bashing other women. I know that when I see a woman or a girl who’s wearing very little I don’t think that she’s a bad person. I think that she probably just doesn’t get it yet. I used to dress very scantily and I just didn’t think about it. As I drew closer to God it was suddenly something that I noticed and worried about.

The point of talking about it and not ignoring it isn’t to bash other women, but to be helpful in guidelines for what is appropriate. I probably wouldn’t have listened to that advice ten years ago, but if it can help one person it’s a good thing. And isn’t that a large part of the points on forums.

 

[dakotagirl]

How to not draw undue attention? Don’t stand out. It’s that simple. No pole dancing, straddling chairs backwards, kickboxing, gyrating, slithery cat stretches, etc. And don’t send out invitations. The type where you look someone head to toe and slyly smile, or where you lean in close or place your hand on a man’s thigh, etc. Also, as annoying as it may be, exuberant spirits can attract attention.

Exuberant spirits? If you guys REALLY want to go to town, google for Alex and Brett Harris’ modesty survey. Apparently everything is immodest. I read a Protestant man once who insisted that women shouldn’t wear light colored clothing because then people could see their curves. HAHAHAHA. And HA!!

 

[Pug]

Exuberant spirits? If you guys REALLY want to go to town, google for Alex and Brett Harris’ modesty survey. Apparently everything is immodest. I read a Protestant man once who insisted that women shouldn’t wear light colored clothing because then people could see their curves. HAHAHAHA. And HA!!

I already responded to a previous request for clarification about my choice of words in post number 58.

I, too, have seen some groups of people express the idea that colorful clothing is immodest. I was reading a book by a Jewish man who went somewhere with his wife and watched the men on the street actually shade their eyes from the sight of his wife on account of her clothing. He had thought she was dressed suitably for walking through that particular Jewish neighborhood. He had been wrong. (She had her head/hair covered with a scarf, long sleeves, long skirt, etc.) Sometimes it is hard to know what another culture will find immodest, even within the same religion. I wonder how it must have felt to be her that day?

 

[centurionguard]

This following was taking from the thread “It’s summer now. How would you show off your body”, but it sparked a related topic:

What would be considered acceptable mannerisms, methods of walking, sitting, standing, posture, etc that women should maintain in order to keep from drawing undue attention from men in regards to modesty? It seems that many women maintain that clothing doesn’t much matter so much as the actions of the wearer behind them. The claim was made that a fully dressed nun in habit could be more scandalous than a naked women who presents herself modestly. What actions would be considered unacceptable or immodest or even sinful for any woman to perform? making “come hither” glances, running, or exercising for example, stretching in public, lifting ones arms past a certain height, certain motions, etc…? What other actions come to mind that are unbecoming of a dignified woman who wishes to preserve the virtue of modesty and not lead others to sin? Or possibly a better question is, rather than ask what actions are sinful, what mannerisms should women use in order not to tempt others?
I believe there is a lot of good ideas which can be picked up from old Victorian sensibilities as to how women should act. Thoughts?

WOW ! You picked one heck of a topic to be spread over the hot fire coals.
My two cents for what it’s worth is that BOTH Women and Men should be exercising the merits and virtues of modesty equally. I can easily see how a topic like this can create a lot of unnecessary mud slinging back and forth. Men can dress very provocative just as much as women can.

 

[GraceDK]

WOW ! You picked one heck of a topic to be spread over the hot fire coals.
My two cents for what it’s worth is that BOTH Women and Men should be exercising the merits and virtues of modesty equally. I can easily see how a topic like this can create a lot of unnecessary mud slinging back and forth. Men can dress very provocative just as much as women can.

I must agree on this.
today at sunday mass I saw a young man in front of me with very short pants, far obove the knee, and he had his hairy legs spread and was playing with his mobile phone half way between his legs… talk about careless attitude. By the way… the rest of us were wearing winter coats…
The other day a woman started a thread called: “Could Conservative men become dominating in marriage?” or something like that. Immediately some persons came and said it was bigoted against men.
On this thread those same individuals have been totally absent…
I wonder where they are…

 

[mistfall]

LOL

I didn’t mean that a Catholic woman can’t ever be high-spirited. It will draw attention, though. If you don’t want that attention, don’t display certain types of high spirits. I find that fact of life annoying. The observation on my part was perhaps somewhat off topic, since I tend to not separate the problem of modesty from the problem of unwanted attention.

I think you’re touching on an important point here. The word “modesty” is being used very loosely, as if we all have the same understanding of what it means. There’s two definitions of “modesty”.

1. The quality or state of being modest; that lowly temper which accompanies a moderate estimate of one’s own worth and importance; absence of self-assertion, arrogance, and presumption; humility respecting one’s own merit.
2. Natural delicacy or shame regarding personal charms and the sexual relation; purity of thought and manners; due regard for propriety in speech or action.

It seems to me that most people on the thread are thinking of #2, but some people are throwing in a bit of #1 in with it, which is a whole 'nother discussion. When #1 is added into the mix, then we get the discussions that cast suspicion on “anything that calls attention to yourself”. It might be argued (though not by me) that wearing hot pink or a jaunty hat is immodest because they are designed to be eye-catching, and - tsk, tsk, tsk - a good girl must not draw attention to herself.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I don’t think it’s all about bashing other women. I know that when I see a woman or a girl who’s wearing very little I don’t think that she’s a bad person. I think that she probably just doesn’t get it yet. I used to dress very scantily and I just didn’t think about it. As I drew closer to God it was suddenly something that I noticed and worried about.

The point of talking about it and not ignoring it isn’t to bash other women, but to be helpful in guidelines for what is appropriate. I probably wouldn’t have listened to that advice ten years ago, but if it can help one person it’s a good thing. And isn’t that a large part of the points on forums.

But honestly, do you think those women actually read here? A forum like this is really mostly preaching to the choir.

Back before you were called to a more faithful life, would this topic have reached you?

 

[RedSoxWife]

But honestly, do you think those women actually read here? A forum like this is really mostly preaching to the choir.

Back before you were called to a more faithful life, would this topic have reached you?

Probably not, but there is obvious disagreement, even here on this topic. After all some posters have called Catholic women who dress and act modestly “dull.” So I wouldn’t say it’s preaching to the choir.

 

[lobster]

I think you’re touching on an important point here. The word “modesty” is being used very loosely, as if we all have the same understanding of what it means. There’s two definitions of “modesty”.

1. The quality or state of being modest; that lowly temper which accompanies a moderate estimate of one’s own worth and importance; absence of self-assertion, arrogance, and presumption; humility respecting one’s own merit.
2. Natural delicacy or shame regarding personal charms and the sexual relation; purity of thought and manners; due regard for propriety in speech or action.

It seems to me that most people on the thread are thinking of #2, but some people are throwing in a bit of #1 in with it, which is a whole 'nother discussion. When #1 is added into the mix, then we get the discussions that cast suspicion on “anything that calls attention to yourself”. It might be argued (though not by me) that wearing hot pink or a jaunty hat is immodest because they are designed to be eye-catching, and - tsk, tsk, tsk - a good girl must not draw attention to herself.

Astute analysis!
I wonder how fine the line is between being ‘vain’ in regards to modesty versus simply having the desire to be attractive or to stand out from others. Attractive in the sense of presenting an appealing disposition of character, value, and personality.