How should women act so as not to draw undue attention?

[Cracker_Mom]

Here we go again.Same type of post as an earlier thread re modesty.
Are we in Saudi Arabia or …
I’ll have to check out that thread about conservative men being controlling…
Good grief.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Here we go again.Same type of post as an earlier thread re modesty.
Are we in Saudi Arabia or …
I’ll have to check out that thread about conservative men being controlling…
Good grief.

I don’t see what the fact that women should respect their bodies and dress modestly has to do with men being controlling? While in certain countries it’s certainly taken to extremes that certainly isn’t the case here (in fact the opposite seems to be the case with young women flashing their breasts at cameras for tee shirts). I wonder if you even read the thread or if you just decided to respond to the title…

I find it very sad that so many women have such little self respect and place such little value in their own worth. Often this is reflected in current fashion trends where girls and young women seek whatever attention they can get. Hardly what I think the early feminists who wanted to secure the vote were after. I wonder what they would think about the direction the movement has taken.

You might want to read Alice Von Hildebrand… she’s very insightful on this subject.

Peace.

 

[RedSoxWife]

WOW ! You picked one heck of a topic to be spread over the hot fire coals.
My two cents for what it’s worth is that BOTH Women and Men should be exercising the merits and virtues of modesty equally. I can easily see how a topic like this can create a lot of unnecessary mud slinging back and forth. Men can dress very provocative just as much as women can.

I agree that women and men should both act and dress modestly. I think this issue comes up with women at the center more often, because most infractions are committed by women. You don’t see Guys Gone Wild videos. Men can dress provocatively, but usually they don’t. It’s certainly not the social norm in our society. However it is the social norm for woman to wear very little.

At college when I would see girls trying to outdo one another at parties it was often in a sexual way (that’s the nicest way I can think to say it). Men compete in different areas, whether it was how much they could drink or how strong they were.

While modesty is certainly important to both I don’t think it doesn’t come up because people are picking on women. I think it doesn’t come up because men don’t flout the rules (if there really are any rules left in our society) on this as often.

 

[Pug]

I think you’re touching on an important point here. The word “modesty” is being used very loosely, as if we all have the same understanding of what it means. There’s two definitions of “modesty”.

1. The quality or state of being modest; that lowly temper which accompanies a moderate estimate of one’s own worth and importance; absence of self-assertion, arrogance, and presumption; humility respecting one’s own merit.
2. Natural delicacy or shame regarding personal charms and the sexual relation; purity of thought and manners; due regard for propriety in speech or action.

What a good idea to be more specific. Your two choices here inspired me to see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church chose to list about modesty, to see if that is contributing even more ways to look at it. Here is a cut:2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
That modesty is compared to temperance interests me. I suppose it looks upon modesty then as a type of restraint of our own desires. I typically look upon my clothing and actions as a requirement of justice, instead, to others.

You mentioned clothing or actions that are eye-catching. I suppose the idea of restraining our desire to do this to the correct situations is indeed temperance. Temperance is not about restraining everything at all times. Rather it is about moderating to the correct time, place, situation, use, etc.

 

[GraceDK]

I agree that women and men should both act and dress modestly. I think this issue comes up with women at the center more often, because most infractions are committed by women. You don’t see Guys Gone Wild videos. Men can dress provocatively, .

I would like to point out that men don’t dress so provocatively because, 1): he doesnt have breasts and so it impossible for him to have a problem with cleavage. A problem that you already have on your picture if I dare go that close and point it out. At any day someone could say you were not modest…
2) if he wears tight pants we dont notice it because mens legs just are not interesting for us. So he doesnt go out of his way to get tight pants.
3) If I go into a bachelors room somewhere I see naked women with huge breasts on the walls. Men find this fascinating for some reasons.
4) If I go into a lockerroom for female workers I see the faces of Keanu Reeves and Brat Pitts on the lockers. The handsomeness of the face is being looked at.
5) If women were in generel turned on by naked strangers, men who wore skimpy clothes, then I am sure we would see just as many men wearing provocative clothes as women. I think you know that. The immodesty-issues is one that always takes two sides.
Then again I also want to point out the huge grey area of clothes that some say are modest and others say are not. There are social, cultural and religious reasons for the indivdual taste and thinking.

 

[Sarabande]

1): he doesnt have breasts and so it impossible for him to have a problem with cleavage.

Although, I have to say, when my husband wears just a normal t-shirt or even a dress shirt and I can see the outline of his nice, well-defined chest, well, I think that’s pretty attractive. I used to always have to control myself when I started dating my husband. Funny enough, he was the only man I ever had to control myself over in that regard.

1. if he wears tight pants we dont notice it because mens legs just are not interesting for us. So he doesnt go out of his way to get tight pants.

Go speak for yourself. hee! hee! I find nice legs on a man very interesting and so do many women I know, although the tight pants wouldn’t do it, you can’t see the calves. The first thing my grandmother said when she saw a pic of my husband was, “Wow! He has really nice legs. Your grandfather had great legs too.” Actually, in the 18th century it was very popular for men to pad their calves in their tights because it was very attractive to women at the time. I think men like the tight pants not because of the legs per say (they’d rather see them in a short skirt to actually see the legs), it’s because they can see the outline all the way up to the how-do-you-call-it.

1. If I go into a bachelors room somewhere I see naked women with huge breasts on the walls. Men find this fascinating for some reasons.
2. If I go into a lockerroom for female workers I see the faces of Keanu Reeves and Brat Pitts on the lockers. The handsomeness of the face is being looked at.

I would say for me personally, I never looked at a pic of man and lusted after him. It’s just not in my makeup. I appreciate beauty and that’s it - most of the time (see my thing on period costume below). I’d have to really get to know the person before it goes further than that. That said, I know plenty of women and my husband does too, who are just as “raunchy” in how they view men. It’s not becoming. They are just as bad as the raunchiest men and I’ve found it is not as uncommon as I used to think it was because I was basing it on myself, my circle of friends and female family members.

1. If women were in generel turned on by naked strangers, men who wore skimpy clothes, then I am sure we would see just as many men wearing provocative clothes as women. I think you know that. The immodesty-issues is one that always takes two sides.
   Then again I also want to point out the huge grey area of clothes that some say are modest and others say are not. There are social, cultural and religious reasons for the indivdual taste and thinking.

I agree with the bolded section (bold mine). I would have to say yes and no to beginning part of no. 5. To one degree, I would agree with that statement, just based on myself who isn’t usually turned on by just seeing a man walking down the street. At the same time, I don’t think most men are as ruled by fashion the way women are. At least based on the men I know, they just wear what they feel is comfortable and looks nice. It doesn’t have to be special stuff or anything to turn on a lady. Some men, though, do know what to wear to get a lady’s attention. Depending on the culture and situation, they will dress to attract a woman. I think of how women go a little googly-eyed when they see a man who is dressed very debonairly. I will also admit that I have an 18th century and Regency period thing for men’s clothing. When I see my husband dressed in his British 43rd of Foot Rev War uniform, it just gets me googly-eyed. When I see him with the jacket off and the flowing, messy, white shirt hanging off of his breeches and tights, that just about does it for me. My husband jokingly calls it the Jane Austen Fetish and apparently many of the single men in these regiments know that if they dress in this way around women who are into history and period novels, they go wild over them. For me, I think the clothing of that period also adds to the idea that the man will be more gentleman-like (even though I know that most soldiers of that time, unless they were officers and even not then sometimes, were often not gentlemen.) But just seeing a period costume on a man and the subconcious thought they he would be more gentlemanly and romantic, makes him even more sexually attractive to me. That said, I still don’t think sexually about them (unless it’s my husband), if that makes sense, but I know other women do.

Anyway, sorry that I’m a little light in response to this post.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I would like to point out that men don’t dress so provocatively because, 1): he doesnt have breasts and so it impossible for him to have a problem with cleavage. A problem that you already have on your picture if I dare go that close and point it out. At any day someone could say you were not modest…
2) if he wears tight pants we dont notice it because mens legs just are not interesting for us. So he doesnt go out of his way to get tight pants.
3) If I go into a bachelors room somewhere I see naked women with huge breasts on the walls. Men find this fascinating for some reasons.
4) If I go into a lockerroom for female workers I see the faces of Keanu Reeves and Brat Pitts on the lockers. The handsomeness of the face is being looked at.
5) If women were in generel turned on by naked strangers, men who wore skimpy clothes, then I am sure we would see just as many men wearing provocative clothes as women. I think you know that. The immodesty-issues is one that always takes two sides.
Then again I also want to point out the huge grey area of clothes that some say are modest and others say are not. There are social, cultural and religious reasons for the indivdual taste and thinking.

Obviously I struck some sort of a chord if you are starting out with personal attacks. You are right on two counts. First off I have not always dressed modestly or acted modestly. I thank God every single day for the transformation he has begun on my life. And I pray that I continue, through His grace, to draw nearer to Him and grow. I have made no secret of my past on any threads.

Secondly, you are right in that I absolutely do not wear that dress in that way any longer. That picture was taken right after the birth of my daughter, at her baptism, when I was struggling to balance modesty and the need to get the baby latched onto my breast (under a nursing cover) quickly. I am actually quite a mess in that picture, leaking milk through my pads, trying to keep my top covered and completely sleep deprived. Thankfully I am a bit better at it now and have figured out that with my post baby figure I need to wear a top under it and a sweater over it. I just keep getting more conservative I guess.

Thank you though for your charitable response. It reminds me of the importance of being kind even when we disagree.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I also wanted to respond to the if women were turned on by what men wore they would dress provocatively too comment. The fact is that the great majority of men don’t dress immodestly. I am not sure what is so offensive about that statement. Men have their own issues to struggle with. They certainly have a greater battle with lust.

One problem I have with certain types of feminist thought is that it tries to make men and women the same and while we are equal we are also very different. Men should strive to be modest. In reality I do not believe they have to try as hard to dress modestly to get the same result.

Personally I would rather struggle with dressing modestly over controlling lust.

 

[budgie2]

I agree that women and men should both act and dress modestly. I think this issue comes up with women at the center more often, because most infractions are committed by women. You don’t see Guys Gone Wild videos. Men can dress provocatively, but usually they don’t. It’s certainly not the social norm in our society. However it is the social norm for woman to wear very little.

At college when I would see girls trying to outdo one another at parties it was often in a sexual way (that’s the nicest way I can think to say it). Men compete in different areas, whether it was how much they could drink or how strong they were.

While modesty is certainly important to both I don’t think it doesn’t come up because people are picking on women. I think it doesn’t come up because men don’t flout the rules (if there really are any rules left in our society) on this as often.

Modesty is a gift of the Holy Spirit but I don’t know whether it means modest in attitude and self-deprecating or modest in appearance. After I got married I started to go to Church more often and fasted and gave more to charity and my skirts got longer. Now I wouldn’t wear above mid-ankle length except for a night out. I used to wear knee length skirts for work and I remember being conscious of my legs and wondering if other people would look at my legs. If I’m conscious of a part of my body and wondering if other people are looking at it then I might be showing too much off as I want to be free and concentrate on what I am inside. I was reading up on skirt length and skirts used to be ankle length in the Victorian era and to see a flash of an ankle was exciting. Skirts went up to mid-ankle length during the war when the husbands went away and the women had to go to work and wear “work-friendly” skirts. It was also due to material rationing. There’s more material in a longer skirt so they cost more.

Trousers are also modest but some people don’t think they’re feminine.

lifeinitaly.com/fashion/skirt-history.asp

 

[elts1956]

As a man, I can say that how you dress does matter, at least for me. A woman could act modest, but if she’s wearing a tank top that reveals a lot of cleavage and a skimpy miniskirt it’s arresting, to say the least, and your modest behavior doesn’t receive a lot of attention. Then again, this is from a man who has been engrossed in sin for a few years now
Still fighting!

Well, I saw the MOST body showing apparal on a woman at CHURCH this past Sunday. I could not believe it. Cleavage, you name it, plus short shorts. And this woman had to be past forty, not that age has anything to do with it. Also short shorts on another teen. I am so surprised the priest of the parish does not keep reminding these forgetful Catholics about covering their bodies at Mass. Disgusting and irreverant.

And most folks blame the teens and youngsters on their mode of dress. We have some appropriate role models, but when you see examples such as I describe above, if I were a teen I would think anything goes. Apparently it does.

 

[Serap]

Men DO dress provocatively. If you visit any “gay” neighbourhood in a large city, you’ll see for yourself.

Heterosexual men tend to not dress that way b/c they know women are turned on more by fantasy. They say what the woman wants to hear to get to 3rd base. That is just as immodest.

RedSoxWife,

Your dress is not immodest in my opinion. Big deal, it’s a v-cut, but you don’t look immodest as a whole in that picture at all.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I don’t see what the fact that women should respect their bodies and dress modestly has to do with men being controlling? While in certain countries it’s certainly taken to extremes that certainly isn’t the case here (in fact the opposite seems to be the case with young women flashing their breasts at cameras for tee shirts). I wonder if you even read the thread or if you just decided to respond to the title…

I find it very sad that so many women have such little self respect and place such little value in their own worth. Often this is reflected in current fashion trends where girls and young women seek whatever attention they can get. Hardly what I think the early feminists who wanted to secure the vote were after. I wonder what they would think about the direction the movement has taken.

You might want to read Alice Von Hildebrand… she’s very insightful on this subject.

Peace.

The subject of womens’ dress can be very much concerned with men who are controlling or have issues with womens’ rights or sexuality.
I’m all for modesty, but for the right reasons.Not for someone’s agenda or unhealthy concerns.
I agree that it is sad to see young women having so little self respect and buying into a toxic pop culture that devalues women and girls.

 

[RedSoxWife]

The subject of womens’ dress can be very much concerned with men who are controlling or have issues with womens’ rights or sexuality.
I’m all for modesty, but for the right reasons.Not for someone’s agenda or unhealthy concerns.
I agree that it is sad to see young women having so little self respect and buying into a toxic pop culture that devalues women and girls.

I definitely agree with you here!

I don’t think women should be forced to dress a certain way. I absolutely think we should have the freedom to choose what we wear. Hopefully what we wear will be modest.

These days I can’t help but wonder whether men’s expectations steer girls and women more towards immodest expectations than some sort of forced modesty. I’m sure there are many controlling men out there, which is awful, but I think there’s much more encouragement from men (and our culture and media and any magazine you pick up in the store) to dress inappropriately.

Not that that is really any sort of excuse for dressing immodestly. We are each responsible for our own behavior. It’s just sad that so many girls really have no idea that there’s anything inappropriate about the way they are dressing (and behaving).

 

[RedSoxWife]

RedSoxWife,

Your dress is not immodest in my opinion. Big deal, it’s a v-cut, but you don’t look immodest as a whole in that picture at all.

Thanks. And yet this morning I changed it. It was something I’d thought about doing for a while, I guess I just needed a little motivation. I don’t want to even remember being that tired until the next one comes around!

 

[GraceDK]

Obviously I struck some sort of a chord if you are starting out with personal attacks. You are right on two counts. First off I have not always dressed modestly or acted modestly. I thank God every single day for the transformation he has begun on my life. And I pray that I continue, through His grace, to draw nearer to Him and grow. I have made no secret of my past on any threads.

Secondly, you are right in that I absolutely do not wear that dress in that way any longer. That picture was taken right after the birth of my daughter, at her baptism, when I was struggling to balance modesty and the need to get the baby latched onto my breast (under a nursing cover) quickly. I am actually quite a mess in that picture, leaking milk through my pads, trying to keep my top covered and completely sleep deprived. Thankfully I am a bit better at it now and have figured out that with my post baby figure I need to wear a top under it and a sweater over it. I just keep getting more conservative I guess.

Thank you though for your charitable response. It reminds me of the importance of being kind even when we disagree.

I want to point out that I was not critizing your dress. Even if I think its uncharitable for women to show cleavage (both for the sake of women and men and their own marriages) I have no business judging you nor anyone as immodest. To me, immodesty is mainly a thing of intention.
I just came to think about my pilgrimage once. I was totally new in my faith, my own sexuality was in a deeeep sleep and I was wearing what every girl wears in my culture: a tang top and shorts… (It was very hot weather) and an American Catholic man gave a lecture about genders. Mainly this Mr. Piety gave the impression that most ladies in my group were dressed like whores (even the ones who were 60 and also according to our culture didn’t cover their shoulders) and that if there was any problem in a marriage it was always due to the woman’s lack of submission. That was my first lecture on modesty… Actually it was rather an application of shame and humiliation of a young girl who was pure by a seemlingly pious man who had gone nuts in his head. So I might be damaged now because of that trauma and unable to think
When I saw your pic I was reminded of that scene… you might have been me at that time, going through that bull…
Some of the male posters on CAF would do a fine job bashing you in their mind, by the way… they advocate burkhas…

 

[GraceDK]

Thanks. And yet this morning I changed it. It was something I’d thought about doing for a while, I guess I just needed a little motivation. I don’t want to even remember being that tired until the next one comes around!

You are pretty reardless of what you wear. But why dont you celebrate the beauty of your hair? your husband does not like your hair? or maybe it was practical because of the baby?

 

[RedSoxWife]

I want to point out that I was not critizing your dress. Even if I think its uncharitable for women to show cleavage (both for the sake of women and men and their own marriages) I have no business judging you nor anyone as immodest. To me, immodesty is mainly a thing of intention.
I just came to think about my pilgrimage once. I was totally new in my faith, my own sexuality was in a deeeep sleep and I was wearing what every girl wears in my culture: a tang top and shorts… (It was very hot weather) and an American Catholic man gave a lecture about genders. Mainly this Mr. Piety gave the impression that most ladies in my group were dressed like whores (even the ones who were 60 and also according to our culture didn’t cover their shoulders) and that if there was any problem in a marriage it was always due to the woman’s lack of submission. That was my first lecture on modesty… Actually it was rather an application of shame and humiliation of a young girl who was pure by a seemlingly pious man who had gone nuts in his head. So I might be damaged now because of that trauma and unable to think
When I saw your pic I was reminded of that scene… you might have been me at that time, going through that bull…
Some of the male posters on CAF would do a fine job bashing you in their mind, by the way… they advocate burkhas…

Yikes! I definitely wouldn’t advocate going up to someone and lecturing them! I imagine it would do the opposite of good and would probably just turn them off to the whole issue I think modestly is something that is probably the most life altering when it’s not forced upon us. Sorry you had that experience.

 

[RedSoxWife]

You are pretty reardless of what you wear. But why dont you celebrate the beauty of your hair? your husband does not like your hair? or maybe it was practical because of the baby?

I actually just don’t feel comfortable in Church with my head uncovered. It was something that I felt a deep conviction about, although it took some time for me to be brave enough to act on, because no one else in our parish covers their head. My husband didn’t care in the beginning, but now he’s very supportive of it and has put up with me pulling him towards the hat section stores.

For me it’s absolutely a sign of obedience to my husband and to God (as the spiritual leaders of our home). I know it’s not necessary anymore (because that’s what always comes up next in the veiling section), but it’s just something I feel drawn to do.

 

[elts1956]

I actually just don’t feel comfortable in Church with my head uncovered. It was something that I felt a deep conviction about, although it took some time for me to be brave enough to act on, because no one else in our parish covers their head. My husband didn’t care in the beginning, but now he’s very supportive of it and has put up with me pulling him towards the hat section stores.

For me it’s absolutely a sign of obedience to my husband and to God (as the spiritual leaders of our home). I know it’s not necessary anymore (because that’s what always comes up next in the veiling section), but it’s just something I feel drawn to do.

Just watched an old movie, The Scarlet and the Black, which was filmed in Rome. A story placed during WWII. There is something so reverent about seeing women with their heads covered with a Mandilla when visiting the Vatican. Long time ago.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I want to point out that I was not critizing your dress. Even if I think its uncharitable for women to show cleavage (both for the sake of women and men and their own marriages) I have no business judging you nor anyone as immodest. To me, immodesty is mainly a thing of intention.
I just came to think about my pilgrimage once. I was totally new in my faith, my own sexuality was in a deeeep sleep and I was wearing what every girl wears in my culture: a tang top and shorts… (It was very hot weather) and an American Catholic man gave a lecture about genders. Mainly this Mr. Piety gave the impression that most ladies in my group were dressed like whores (even the ones who were 60 and also according to our culture didn’t cover their shoulders) and that if there was any problem in a marriage it was always due to the woman’s lack of submission. That was my first lecture on modesty… Actually it was rather an application of shame and humiliation of a young girl who was pure by a seemlingly pious man who had gone nuts in his head. So I might be damaged now because of that trauma and unable to think
When I saw your pic I was reminded of that scene… you might have been me at that time, going through that bull…
Some of the male posters on CAF would do a fine job bashing you in their mind, by the way… they advocate burkhas…

Yeah, I’ve run into some creepy men who obsess about womens’ dress under the guise of piety.They have way more interest in the matter than is healthy.It speaks more about them than the women/girls they try to lecture.
Real charity comes with humility.And the correct intentions.