How should women act so as not to draw undue attention?

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Even in Mary’s day, I’m sure that she had some unwanted attention. It’s just not written in the bible. Mary was a very beautiful and humble woman. To a lot of men, that is a huge attraction to conquer. Lobster is being naive to think that not one man ever came on to her. I think that’s impossible given her amazing beauty inside and out.

She of course, turned away from sin, but it doesn’t mean that other men weren’t tempted to sin with her.

If you read the lives of early female saints and martyrs (Saint Thekla being one example) you’ll find they were all pious women who no doubt dressed modestly…and they still had men trying to rape them at every turn. Sometimes they were martyred because the man didn’t understand that no means no.

 

[lobster]

I am guilty. I stretched in public this weekend.And might have raised my arms above a certain height.

Shame on you! :tsktsk:

Not sure about "certain motions."Please elaborate if that is prudent on a Christian site. I did abstain from “Come hither glances.”
How many innocent souls may I have led to sin by my actions?

I am asking a question, not making a statement.

What would Tertullian say about my conduct?
I await direction so that I may amend my life.Please recommend a Victorian guide to feminine decorum.Perhaps a corset & hoop skirt would prevent sinful running & exercising,Not to mention stretching & raising arms.Thanks!

Seriously, if you think any or all of the above are appropriate actions for a Christian trying honestly to be modest, please say so and why or why not. I will respect your opinion if you offer one. All I ask is the same in return.

 

[lobster]

Even in Mary’s day, I’m sure that she had some unwanted attention. It’s just not written in the bible. Mary was a very beautiful and humble woman. To a lot of men, that is a huge attraction to conquer. Lobster is being naive to think that not one man ever came on to her. I think that’s impossible given her amazing beauty inside and out.

Of course I would find it hard to believe that no one ever came on to her. I am not saying that. I just think that if for example we are going to use Mary as an example to strive to imitate, what sort of actions or activities might she/might she not engage in due to the propensity or lack thereof to solicit the wrong sort of attention.

She of course, turned away from sin, but it doesn’t mean that other men weren’t tempted to sin with her.

After all, even Joseph her “most chaste” spouse was attracted to her. He was strong enough as a man (and a therefore a role model for men) to remain chaste along with her, even though the two were attracted to each other. I honestly would find it very difficult to picture Mary as performing seductive actions in order to lure Joseph to her. In the same way, I don’t believe Joseph to have been one to tell Mary fibs about how he loved her in order to seduce her. When we get down to the meat of the question, basically how best should we women (okay GraceDK, men also) act or not act so as to not draw the wrong kind of attention, rather the right kind in imitation of them.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Speaking as a bloke, any physically attractive woman will get attention from men, because that’s the way blokes are wired. Women can help by dressing modestly, not giving obvious signals etc, but even then some men will still try to cotton on to them. I do get annoyed however when I hear of these women saying they were molested by sports stars etc, when one gets the definite impression they deliberately led the blokes on, by behaviour, dress and location.

I also remember a comment by my old pastor that he knew (Christian) men who had been driven to marriage by their sex drive. It was the only way they were going to get any legitimate relief. Funny though how it is that until the hormones kick in, there’s actually mock enmity between boys and girls. I remember trying to start a boy’s club when I was a kid. Rule 1 - no girls allowed.

If you want to blame someone, maybe you ought to ask God why he made men so motivated by sight in the case of sexual attraction. I can’t think who it was offhand but one OT character is quoted as saying “Get her for me. She looks good to me.”

God’s the one who designed the system. In that respect it’s His responsibility.

And the reason we quote Church fathers is that there were no Church mothers. The women back then by and large weren’t allowed to have much of an education, hence the paucity of female literature.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

If you want to blame someone, maybe you ought to ask God why he made men so motivated by sight in the case of sexual attraction. I can’t think who it was offhand but one OT character is quoted as saying “Get her for me. She looks good to me.”

God’s the one who designed the system. In that respect it’s His responsibility.

You have not read enough patristics God created a system for procreation. The devil and his minions introduced the concept of attraction beyond that. Men and women were meant to be one unit in a family, not sex toys for one another’s pleasure.

EDIT: The OT character may be David - in any case, it’s not an example of God giving a command but someone sinning.

And the reason we quote Church fathers is that there were no Church mothers. The women back then by and large weren’t allowed to have much of an education, hence the paucity of female literature.

Not entirely true. There are many writings of nuns or devout women, even today. Most of them are more recent for certain, but “matristics” is not a myth

 

[Pug]

If you want to blame someone, maybe you ought to ask God why he made men so motivated by sight in the case of sexual attraction. I can’t think who it was offhand but one OT character is quoted as saying “Get her for me. She looks good to me.”

Samson. And, in case anyone wonders, he is not talking about Delilah. You are right to blame God for that incident in Samson’s life. The bible blames it on the LORD as well. He was going to use it as an occassion to act against the Philistines. See Judges 14, especially verse 4

 

[GraceDK]

LOL!!

Being an attractive tall lean blonde, I have been a subject of many harrassments and come ons when I really wasn’t trying to seduce anyone. I used to wonder what I was doing wrong and why men always seemed to just want to sleep with me.

I definitely wasn’t immodest. I can speak for myself! In saying that, I can also speak for many other women that have been through what I’ve been through. It really upset me that men had such little respect. I thought I’d never meet my husband.

Thanks God that I did!!

In saying this, Lobster has some very good arguments also. I can see her point also.

Even in Mary’s day, I’m sure that she had some unwanted attention. It’s just not written in the bible. Mary was a very beautiful and humble woman. To a lot of men, that is a huge attraction to conquer. Lobster is being naive to think that not one man ever came on to her. I think that’s impossible given her amazing beauty inside and out.

She of course, turned away from sin, but it doesn’t mean that other men weren’t tempted to sin with her.

I totally relate to your post.,… even when I wear the most modest clothes I have I get lots of attention… even when I wore my looong black winterjacket… even with long sleeves and long dresses and long everything… even with head covering and black clothes… it makes no difference. Some men are all about that thing… or maybe they just want to talk to someone they find attractive. I dont think that’s wrong per se.

lobster. Whereas I do find you uncharitable towards me, I tend to think we agree on most things. I choose not to comment any further for two reasons. I heard the wise words the other day that Europeans and Americans simply think differently about what modesty is and therefore they have disagreement on this… meaning, Americans are not right or wrong and Europeans are not right or wrong. they are simply different when it comes to culture, what is seen and meant by modesty and immodesty.
The second reason is that I dont follow your words… they get somehow heavy… maybe too academic for me …
Shortly about Tertullian. His time was a time for experts on theology and i like him alot in that context, but they also had feelings towards sexuality and ascheticism (which was demanded of theologians… why also Augustin left his weeping girl friend and child in order to become a theologian, which from my personal stance is a bit problematic) which are not held by today’s Catholic theologians…

Peace.

 

[lobster]

I totally relate to your post.,… even when I wear the most modest clothes I have I get lots of attention… even when I wore my looong black winterjacket… even with long sleeves and long dresses and long everything… even with head covering and black clothes… it makes no difference. Some men are all about that thing… or maybe they just want to talk to someone they find attractive. I dont think that’s wrong per se.

lobster. Whereas I do find you uncharitable towards me, I tend to think we agree on most things. I choose not to comment any further for two reasons. I heard the wise words the other day that Europeans and Americans simply think differently about what modesty is and therefore they have disagreement on this… meaning, Americans are not right or wrong and Europeans are not right or wrong. they are simply different when it comes to culture, what is seen and meant by modesty and immodesty.
The second reason is that I dont follow your words… they get somehow heavy… maybe too academic for me …
Shortly about Tertullian. His time was a time for experts on theology and i like him alot in that context, but they also had feelings towards sexuality and ascheticism (which was demanded of theologians… why also Augustin left his weeping girl friend and child in order to become a theologian, which from my personal stance is a bit problematic) which are not held by today’s Catholic theologians…

Peace.

GraceDK,
My apologies if I came across as uncharitable. May I say I am sorry?
I too do not see any difference of substance between our beliefs, but rather that which is superficial. We will have to agree on our cultural differences as somehow influencing our opinions.
Thank you sincerely for sharing your honest views and your charitable responses (even in the presence of my uncharitableness). Thanks.

 

[Serap]

GraceDK,
My apologies if I came across as uncharitable. May I say I am sorry?
I too do not see any difference of substance between our beliefs, but rather that which is superficial. We will have to agree on our cultural differences as somehow influencing our opinions.
Thank you sincerely for sharing your honest views and your charitable responses (even in the presence of my uncharitableness). Thanks.

Lobster, you ARE a nice woman. You are very firm in your beliefs, but I am glad that everyone is being a good example of a Christian in this thread.

I tend to follow the European standards of modesty myself, so I could be guilty of immodesty here in Canada without realizing it. As I mentioned, my mother is French Canadian, so I have been heavily influenced by a European-like culture.

At the end of the day, we love God above all things and we all want to please God…gotta love it!!!

 

[RedSoxWife]

A couple of my favorite blogs have address this subject and I thought I would add them to the conversation. The first is by Sister Mary Martha who has a hilarious blog. I’ve read all her blogs for several months so I was going back to the beginning to find some I hadn’t read and I found this.

asksistermarymartha.blogspot.com/2006/07/july-5th-day-that-will-live-in-infamy.html

Another blog posted this quote-

“While we are on the subject of dress and its relevance to the problem of modesty and immodesty it is worth drawing attention to the functional significance of differences in attire. There are certain objective situations in which even total nudity of the body is not immodest, since the proper function of nakedness in this context is not to provoke a reaction to the person as an object for enjoyment, and in just the same way the functions of particular forms of attire may vary. Thus, the body may be partially bared for physical labour, for bathing, or for a medical examination. If then we wish to pass a moral judgement on particular forms of dress we have to start from the particular functions which they serve. When a person uses such a form of dress in accordance with its objective function we cannot claim to see anything immodest in it, even if it involves partial nudity. Whereas the use of such a costume outside its proper context is immodest, and is inevitably felt to be so. For example, there is nothing immodest about the use of a bathing costume at a bathing place, but to wear it in the street or while out for a walk is contrary to the dictates of modesty.”
— from Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla

They are two pieces that address swimming attire and how it can be right and wrong.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I guess one thing that does bother me still is the idea that “It’s not my sin if someone else sins because of what I’m wearing” attitude. I mean there are limits and I don’t think you have to be completely covered up. But I think there is a line between what is right and what is wrong and moral relativism is a slippery slope. “It’s okay for her because she doesn’t know better” is an argument I’ve heard here and it bothers me because I’ve heard “religious” people apply the exact same argument to abortion.

I’m not saying we should judge girls and women who dress immodestly, but I am saying that if we know better we should certainly set a good example. I just don’t like it when people who know better seem to justify just about any behavior.

I think the rule for modesty I set for myself is that if I wouldn’t wear something in front of my grandmother or I wouldn’t want her to see me acting a certain way in public if she was there, I probably shouldn’t be doing it (you could fill in here with Priest instead of grandmother or parish or some other respected figure in your life).

I’m not suggesting that women can’t run (I run) and can’t swim (I swim… in a one piece suit that isn’t revealing. As soon as I’m out and dry I cover up.). As the early quote from John Paul II said above, there are different types of modesty in different situations.

 

[GraceDK]

Live and enjoy life. You only get one on this side of eternity.
Its lovely to feel the breeze around ones legs and in ones hair and the sun warming ones shoulders and face and swimming in the ocean and getting a tan and kiss your beloved while enjoying a sunset and dance cheek to cheek… all of it publicly.

The other day young Neda, 26 and engaged, was shot down in Tehran. The world could watch in horror as she died in her father’s arms while blood was pouring out of her. Her offence? wearing jeans and only half her scarf covering her hair as she silently protested the election fraud of her dictatorship led by a man (Ahmedinejad) who hates women so much that he believes they should be hidden away and no one ever sees his wife.

(sources for Neda: jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1245184910763&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull )

We should often be thankful for the freedom we have as women in Western cultures´… freedom from religious police and supression under the guise of religious piety.

 

[RedSoxWife]

One thing that I try to remind myself as I dress in the morning and go about my day is that I want to do the best I can to do what is right and to keep from adding to the sins of the world. It’s going to happen, I’m human and far from being a saint, but if by dressing and acting modestly I can minimize sins in myself and others, I will do all that I can. As my signature says having a right to do something and being right and doing it isn’t the same thing. The freedom to do whatever we want doesn’t mean that doing it is right.

Violence and murder are tragic. The reactions of people to immodest dress on both sides (dressing immodestly and trying to force women to dress modestly) are often wrong. However that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t respect ones body and dress and act modestly.

I don’t see how dressing and acting modestly is supposed to take joy from life. I feel the most alive when I’m right with God, when I’m going to confession and receiving communion regularly. And I’m happiest when I’m wearing something where I don’t have to spend half my time worrying about something popping out.

Just because some people on one side are wrong in their actions, trying to force others to be a certain way, doesn’t mean that the underlying moral (modesty) is wrong.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

One thing that I try to remind myself as I dress in the morning and go about my day is that I want to do the best I can to do what is right and to keep from adding to the sins of the world. It’s going to happen, I’m human and far from being a saint, but if by dressing and acting modestly I can minimize sins in myself and others, I will do all that I can. As my signature says having a right to do something and being right and doing it isn’t the same thing. The freedom to do whatever we want doesn’t mean that doing it is right.

Violence and murder are tragic. The reactions of people to immodest dress on both sides (dressing immodestly and trying to force women to dress modestly) are often wrong. However that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t respect ones body and dress and act modestly.

I don’t see how dressing and acting modestly is supposed to take joy from life. I feel the most alive when I’m right with God, when I’m going to confession and receiving communion regularly. And I’m happiest when I’m wearing something where I don’t have to spend half my time worrying about something popping out.

Just because some people on one side are wrong in their actions, trying to force others to be a certain way, doesn’t mean that the underlying moral (modesty) is wrong.

It would only take joy from life if one was *forced * to dress a certain way-as in some Muslim countries.Having the freedom to make our choices re. dress is a great liberty we can take for granted.

 

[GraceDK]

A person who goes against her conscience is not a happy individual of course. So we wear what we find is right and okay.
We should never take the freedom for granted. For too many centuries no woman was even allowed to vote.
Women and men have to have the same rights in all things.
I think its okay for a woman to wear a scarf or long dresses or whatever, as long as she realises that her sense of modesty is not universally set, but a product of her own time, environment, culture and religious values.
I bet not one person on this thread would say they are for immodesty. What we can disagree on is what modesty consists in.
One example is that some people think a two piece bathing suit is more immodest than a one-piece… some think that even that is improper, some think scarfs are more modest than no scarf, some that dresses are more modest than trousers… thats all cool, as long as that person only has these thoughts for her self and for no one else and realises that fx. Indian women are not immodest for showing stomach in their traditional dresses etc… For me personally, the point where modesty and humility becomes transformed into immodesty is the moment where the personal quidelines for balanced behaviour are turned into universal laws used to measure the virtue of others.

 

[RedSoxWife]

It would only take joy from life if one was *forced * to dress a certain way-as in some Muslim countries.Having the freedom to make our choices re. dress is a great liberty we can take for granted.

If you have even read through any of my posts I have said again and again that women should not be forced to do anything. Yes we should dress modestly, just as we should love our neighbor and go to Mass. I never said women should be forced to do anything.

It should be joyful to do what is right because we know we are pleasing God and turning from sin. That’s why I’m a thousand times happier now, adhering to the teachings of the Church, then I was five years ago, doing whatever I felt like.

I think we should be free to dress how we want, however just because we are free to wear what we want doesn’t mean we should.

 

[Serap]

If you have even read through any of my posts I have said again and again that women should not be forced to do anything. Yes we should dress modestly, just as we should love our neighbor and go to Mass. I never said women should be forced to do anything.

It should be joyful to do what is right because we know we are pleasing God and turning from sin. That’s why I’m a thousand times happier now, adhering to the teachings of the Church, then I was five years ago, doing whatever I felt like.

I think we should be free to dress how we want, however just because we are free to wear what we want doesn’t mean we should.

well I still dress sexy and I go to Confession and have Eucharist regularly. I am modest, but sexy and I feel good about that. I don’t cover my head or wear skirts to my ankles. All of my clothes are slim fitting and I feel feminine.

I bet many pious Catholic women would see me as immodest. As Grace says, it’s all about our own perception of what is modest. I am serving God as you are and I do it in a way that I feel is modest.

BTW…I do believe that abortion is terrible, but comparing murder to a woman’s dress is a little wee bit … well u know …

That being said, I’m happy for you that you have found true happiness in God. That is beautiful! I admire that.

 

[RedSoxWife]

well I still dress sexy and I go to Confession and have Eucharist regularly. I am modest, but sexy and I feel good about that. I don’t cover my head or wear skirts to my ankles. All of my clothes are slim fitting and I feel feminine.

I bet many pious Catholic women would see me as immodest. As Grace says, it’s all about our own perception of what is modest. I am serving God as you are and I do it in a way that I feel is modest.

BTW…I do believe that abortion is terrible, but comparing murder to a woman’s dress is a little wee bit … well u know …

That being said, I’m happy for you that you have found true happiness in God. That is beautiful! I admire that.

I do think I should say one thing! I know it may seem like it because I am passionate about this subject, but I am passionate about it personally. I really don’t notice what other women are wearing (unless it’s a cute dress and I want to know where they got it!). I don’t think that women aren’t “good Catholics” if they wear pants to Mass. I wear dresses because I feel they are respectful. And I have more of a problem with the skimpiness and the tightness then whether or not it’s a dress. Most of my dresses are to my knees (except when I was in the Middle East, then I made a point of keeping them to my ankles). I think women should dress modestly, but really I don’t usually notice unless it’s really bad (like, ew… who wants to see that bad…). I’m sure I wouldn’t think twice about how anyone here dresses!

As for the comparing dress to murder, I know there’s a huge span between it, but it’s the idea of moral relativism that I’ve seen throughout parts of the thread that I found disturbing. While I certainly don’t think that unintentionally dressing immodestly is anything above venial, it was the idea that “it’s not wrong because they don’t know any better” that bothered me.

The anti-men sentiment also kind of bothers me (not with you Serap but in other parts of the thread!). I feel like if a man tries to make any sort of comment several people are going to jump down their throats.

 

[GraceDK]

I wear dresses because I feel they are respectful. .

To me dresses are inanimate. they have no value except what is given to them. They have no inherent values in themselves.
I wear them because they look pretty to my taste. If I was most inclined not to be noticed as a female I would probably wear jeans like everyone else around here. At any rate its not about respectability but about personal taste.

About what you say about men. I have experienced it too… people jumb down my throat too, simply because I dont have the same ideas about what modesty is than some of the men and women here.
I guess its a sensitive subject because whether we want to or not we have oppinions about things, and these oppinions are symbolised in what we wear among other things. Also a lot of judgement has been going on between the lines on these threads expecially from some people who wanted to dictate properness to others.
This reminded some of us of pharisaism and created a natural anti-response in many freedom-loving people.

 

[slyboots]

When I saw the title of this thread I really misunderstood I think. I thought it was about our actions, not what we wear.
How should we act? Dignified. Honorable. Thoughtful. Compassionate. Virtuous.
A prostitute can ply her trade in the dress of a Catholic school girl. But that certainly does not make her virtuous.
A housewife can wear blue jeans and can be on her knees praying the rosary. Will God refuse to hear her?
That said, at Mass dignity and virtue should help us know that clothing met to direct attention to our sexuality is inappropriate.
At any other time, being thoughtful about what we are presenting to others helps.
A man will certainly be sexually attracted to a pole dance at a bar. But is he interested in having a family and living his lifetime caring for her.
A woman who is looking for male companionship may think it’s a good idea to dress provocatively and advertise her sexual desirability. But what kind of man is she looking for? If she wants a man in her life who will care for her and her children this is not the way to go about it.
And for those of us who veil, and for those who don’t, we must remember Salome’ veiled as a sexual tease for her step father. Modesty and virtue are in the woman. The outside should of course match.