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tonyrey
Guest
Was his contribution to human thought worthless? If so why? If not why not?
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S
spockrates
Guest
Socrates helped me personally to see that why I believe is as important as what I believe. So his contribution had great worth to me. What do you think, Tonyrey, and why do you think it?
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tonyrey
Guest
Socrates helped me personally to see that why I believe is as important as what I believe. So his contribution had great worth to me.
In other words his questioning technique - which is the basis of modern science - helps us to get to the foundations of our beliefs. Similarly his dictum “Know yourself” opens up a new realm of investigation which is less obvious but far more significant and valuable than the physical world because it is concerned with persons rather than things. Science is superficial compared with philosophy!It is appropriate that you are the first to answer the question.
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, I suppose the best way to learn why someone believes is to ask her questions. However, if one’s reason why she believes is not a good reason for me to believe, this does not prove what she believes is untrue. It only proves a better reason why to believe might exist.
Yes, you might be right. Let us consider that: Please tell me why science is superficial in comparison. I mean, there are sciences that investigate human behavior, such as sociology, biology and psychology. Would you say these sciences also do not hold a candle to philosophy? If so, what do you think makes philosophers superior to the scientists of these scientific disciplines?It is appropriate that you are the first to answer the question.
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spockrates
Guest
What do you think?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spockrates
Science is the search for knowledge. Knowledge is important.
Philosophy is the search for wisdom, which is vastly more important.
The cave man survived without science. Could he have survived without wisdom?
Science is the search for knowledge. Knowledge is important.
Philosophy is the search for wisdom, which is vastly more important.
The cave man survived without science. Could he have survived without wisdom?
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spockrates
Guest
I suppose the answer to your question depends on how one defines knowledge and wisdom. Please tell me, Charlemagne: What is the difference between knowledge and wisdom?
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
What is the difference between knowledge and wisdom?
Check the dictionary for formal definitions that most people have to agree with.
For myself, knowledge is information acquired mainly by the use of reason (both cognitive and affective).
Wisdom is the ability to have insights that foster our interests and our survival.
Wisdom is a power exercised at many different levels of our psyche. Knowledge is the product of that power.
Nuclear physics is the product of cognitive insight (analysis and imagination working together).
Nuclear physics (knowledge) is the foundation of nuclear weapons.
Nuclear weapons, however, are not the product of wisdom.
What is the difference between knowledge and wisdom?
Check the dictionary for formal definitions that most people have to agree with.
For myself, knowledge is information acquired mainly by the use of reason (both cognitive and affective).
Wisdom is the ability to have insights that foster our interests and our survival.
Wisdom is a power exercised at many different levels of our psyche. Knowledge is the product of that power.
Nuclear physics is the product of cognitive insight (analysis and imagination working together).
Nuclear physics (knowledge) is the foundation of nuclear weapons.
Nuclear weapons, however, are not the product of wisdom.
I
Ion
Guest
I would say also that we use them intercalaly, like strategy and tactics.
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Ion
Guest
Was he condemned because he wanted to teach people to obtain wisdom from knowledge?
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spockrates
Guest
Thank you for the reply, Charlemagne. Am I correct in understanding you to say that wisdom is not a kind of knowledge?
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spockrates
Guest
My understanding of the crime for which Socrates was martyred was that he incited young men to believe in a God new to them. In private conversations with Plato and his other disciples, he said this God was a being who was Wisdom and the source of all wisdom possessed by gods and men. All true philosophers loved this God, for the word philosopher meant a lover of wisdom.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
**Am I correct in understanding you to say that wisdom is not a kind of knowledge? **
Wisdom is the producer of knowledge in that wisdom makes all kinds of knowledge possible. Wisdom, it seems to me, is a habit of mind and heart based not just on the power of insight (that some people seem to be more endowed with than others), but also on tradition and common sense. It is a learned state of mind (mental strategy) that stays with us and gets us through many a challenge. Some people have wisdom more than others, and some people pursue wisdom while others don’t even believe in it. A special characteristic of wisdom might be that it is able to predict consequences of certain actions. In that sense, wisdom is the knowledge of how to produce knowledge. But perhaps at times even the wise can be confounded by their own wisdom. Variety is supposed to be the spice of life … I suppose that includes wisdom and foolishness. 
**Am I correct in understanding you to say that wisdom is not a kind of knowledge? **
Wisdom is the producer of knowledge in that wisdom makes all kinds of knowledge possible. Wisdom, it seems to me, is a habit of mind and heart based not just on the power of insight (that some people seem to be more endowed with than others), but also on tradition and common sense. It is a learned state of mind (mental strategy) that stays with us and gets us through many a challenge. Some people have wisdom more than others, and some people pursue wisdom while others don’t even believe in it. A special characteristic of wisdom might be that it is able to predict consequences of certain actions. In that sense, wisdom is the knowledge of how to produce knowledge. But perhaps at times even the wise can be confounded by their own wisdom.
Variety is supposed to be the spice of life … I suppose that includes wisdom and foolishness.
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spockrates
Guest
Trying to wrap my head around that. Perhaps if I take it one thought at a time I’ll become wise about wisdom? Let me try. It seems to me that since wisdom is the knowledge of how to acquire knowledge, and knowledge is information acquired by the use of reason, then wisdom is information acquired by the use of reason about how to acquire information acquired by use of reason. Am I speaking wisely, or misunderstanding you?spock
**Am I correct in understanding you to say that wisdom is not a kind of knowledge? **
Wisdom is the producer of knowledge in that wisdom makes all kinds of knowledge possible. Wisdom, it seems to me, is a habit of mind and heart based not just on the power of insight (that some people seem to be more endowed with than others), but also on tradition and common sense. It is a learned state of mind (mental strategy) that stays with us and gets us through many a challenge. Some people have wisdom more than others, and some people pursue wisdom while others don’t even believe in it. A special characteristic of wisdom might be that it is able to predict consequences of certain actions. In that sense, wisdom is the knowledge of how to produce knowledge. But perhaps at times even the wise can be confounded by their own wisdom.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
** Let me try. It seems to me that since wisdom is the knowledge of how to acquire knowledge, and knowledge is information acquired by the use of reason, then wisdom is information acquired by the use of reason about how to acquire information acquired by use of reason. Am I speaking wisely, or misunderstanding you? **
You just said a mouthful, didn’t you? 
Yes, wisdom is not easy to define in the same way that knowledge can be defined. We cannot really separate them absolutely from each other. Some knowledge is foolishness (the knowledge of evil up close and personal) while other knowledge is wisdom (knowing virtue and seeking sainthood, for example). As Socrates put it, the whole purpose of life is to know how to die (or words to that effect). Science is not the least bit interested in that kind of knowledge.
When Socrates spoke critically of those who set science up over philosophy, that is the point he was stressing. Some knowledge is superior to other knowledge. Wisdom is knowledge of the good that is in us and in others. Science, because of its deliberately narrow epistemology, has no way to take good and evil into account. Therefore science can be knowledge, but strictly speaking it cannot be identical to wisdom, as the worldwide arsenal of nuclear weapons has shown.
** Let me try. It seems to me that since wisdom is the knowledge of how to acquire knowledge, and knowledge is information acquired by the use of reason, then wisdom is information acquired by the use of reason about how to acquire information acquired by use of reason. Am I speaking wisely, or misunderstanding you? **
You just said a mouthful, didn’t you? Yes, wisdom is not easy to define in the same way that knowledge can be defined. We cannot really separate them absolutely from each other. Some knowledge is foolishness (the knowledge of evil up close and personal) while other knowledge is wisdom (knowing virtue and seeking sainthood, for example). As Socrates put it, the whole purpose of life is to know how to die (or words to that effect). Science is not the least bit interested in that kind of knowledge.
When Socrates spoke critically of those who set science up over philosophy, that is the point he was stressing. Some knowledge is superior to other knowledge. Wisdom is knowledge of the good that is in us and in others. Science, because of its deliberately narrow epistemology, has no way to take good and evil into account. Therefore science can be knowledge, but strictly speaking it cannot be identical to wisdom, as the worldwide arsenal of nuclear weapons has shown.
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spockrates
Guest
spock
** Let me try. It seems to me that since wisdom is the knowledge of how to acquire knowledge, and knowledge is information acquired by the use of reason, then wisdom is information acquired by the use of reason about how to acquire information acquired by use of reason. Am I speaking wisely, or misunderstanding you? **
Perhaps you are correct, but if we do not try to define wisdom, how will you and I ever know that we know that what we know is in fact wise or is instead foolish? I mean, we will never truly know if we’ve acquired wisdom if we have no idea what wisdom is! Defining what she is, is the first step to truly becoming wise about wisdom, and one who lacks wisdom about wisdom will never become wise, I think. What do you think?
Sounds wise to me, but I won’t know for certain till I know what wisdom is. Maybe it will help to compare wisdom with foolishness. Please tell me: What makes some knowledge foolish and other knowledge wise?
Well, I know Socrates had a disdain for the Sophists who used dialog to win arguments, rather than to discover truth. He also had little good to say about the Sophists’ prize pupils–lawyers and politicians. However, I was unaware of any criticisms he had of scientists. Please enlighten me.
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spockrates
Guest
Shall we continue to consider this definition, first, or would you like to try another?
Wisdom is knowledge of how to obtain knowledge.
Wisdom is knowledge of how to obtain knowledge.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
** However, I was unaware of any criticisms he had of scientists. Please enlighten me. **
sparknotes.com/philosophy/phaedo/section9.rhtml
**Wisdom is knowledge of how to obtain knowledge. **
Yes, with the caveat that it is not the knowledge of how to obtain itself. That is to say, consistent with what we are taught as Catholics, wisdom is a gift. It is given to some in greater portion than it is given to others. When we receive the Sacrament of Confirmation we seek this as the first of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and Fear of the Lord.
Also, wisdom cannot be separated from virtue. All wisdom is rooted in holiness. We never think it good or admirable or noble to be unwise. Socrates was a holy man constantly in search of Truth. He was loyal to the city state of Athens, and he venerated the gods (Asclepius, anyway, the god of healing). Some would say he was a foolish man who got himself executed for nothing. That would be about as reasonable a thing to say as that Jesus was a foolish man who got himself executed for nothing. There are hardly two men more memorable and admired for their martyrdom than Socrates and Jesus.
** However, I was unaware of any criticisms he had of scientists. Please enlighten me. **
sparknotes.com/philosophy/phaedo/section9.rhtml
**Wisdom is knowledge of how to obtain knowledge. **
Yes, with the caveat that it is not the knowledge of how to obtain itself. That is to say, consistent with what we are taught as Catholics, wisdom is a gift. It is given to some in greater portion than it is given to others. When we receive the Sacrament of Confirmation we seek this as the first of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and Fear of the Lord.
Also, wisdom cannot be separated from virtue. All wisdom is rooted in holiness. We never think it good or admirable or noble to be unwise. Socrates was a holy man constantly in search of Truth. He was loyal to the city state of Athens, and he venerated the gods (Asclepius, anyway, the god of healing). Some would say he was a foolish man who got himself executed for nothing. That would be about as reasonable a thing to say as that Jesus was a foolish man who got himself executed for nothing. There are hardly two men more memorable and admired for their martyrdom than Socrates and Jesus.
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Ion
Guest
Can’t compare Socrates with Jesus.
I didn’t read Socrates and what I know is from other people’s interpretations. I think Socrates operated whitin the natural law. Telling young to question everything might not be such a good ideea, after all they had a hard time to make a living and there is no time to think all in advance; plus not all of them were brilliant. Questioning everything was like playing Socrates’s game by his rules in his backyard. From the point of view of a society that strugles for existence, and keeping together is essential, the "waves’ made by Socrates might have been to much. The most of the people thoght Socrates would go away for a while, recant and come back. I might have voted to “kick his butt out of the town” too
I didn’t read Socrates and what I know is from other people’s interpretations. I think Socrates operated whitin the natural law. Telling young to question everything might not be such a good ideea, after all they had a hard time to make a living and there is no time to think all in advance; plus not all of them were brilliant. Questioning everything was like playing Socrates’s game by his rules in his backyard. From the point of view of a society that strugles for existence, and keeping together is essential, the "waves’ made by Socrates might have been to much. The most of the people thoght Socrates would go away for a while, recant and come back. I might have voted to “kick his butt out of the town” too
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Ion
I might have voted to “kick his butt out of the town” too.
Do you also object to 1st Amendment rights?
I might have voted to “kick his butt out of the town” too.
Do you also object to 1st Amendment rights?
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