S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, but can something cause itself?
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C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Spock
**Yes, but can something cause itself? **
No. Not even God can cause himself.
**Yes, but can something cause itself? **
No. Not even God can cause himself.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Wisdom is largely a gift from God. Some can cultivate secular wisdom, for example by reading Socrates. But spiritual wisdom must come by the grace of God. Yet God does not impose wisdom on us. We are free to accept it or reject it; free to accept it, then reject it, as in the case of Solomon.
S
spockrates
Guest
Agreed. And do wise decisions bring about wise actions?Spock
**Yes, but can something cause itself? **
No. Not even God can cause himself.
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes. And is the gift of wisdom God gives what we learn from Him, or what we do for Him? For example, one who hears God’s wisdom might choose to not believe it, or believe it but not obey it. Is the knowledge of the truth God’s gift, or is the believing and obeying God’s gift?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
**
And do wise decisions bring about wise actions?**
Yes, if the wise person also has the ability and character to act.
**Is the knowledge of the truth God’s gift, or is the believing and obeying God’s gift? **
It is God’s gift, since all things are from God. Believing and obeying is our gift to God.
**
And do wise decisions bring about wise actions?**
Yes, if the wise person also has the ability and character to act.
**Is the knowledge of the truth God’s gift, or is the believing and obeying God’s gift? **
It is God’s gift, since all things are from God. Believing and obeying is our gift to God.
S
spockrates
Guest
Then it seems we have one truth we seek: Wise actions cannot possibly be wisdom. For wisdom is that which makes wise decisions, and wise decisions cause wise actions. But if wise actions were also wisdom than wisdom would cause wisdom. This, however is absurd, we agree, because nothing–not even God–can cause itself! The upshot is that what we do, which we call wise is not wisdom at all.
I suppose God might give one the power to obey, but as we’ve discovered, such wise deeds are not wisdom. Maybe this is the truth?It is God’s gift, since all things are from God. Believing and obeying is our gift to God.
Wisdom = knowing the truth
Faith = believing the truth
Love = obeying the truth
“Peter, do you love me?” Jesus asked the coward who earlier fled when Jesus was arrested and even denied he knew Jesus.
When I do what I know I should not, it is love I lack, not wisdom or faith. Obedience to God is not wisdom, so could it be love?
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
(John 13)
“If you love me, keep my commands."
(John 14:15)
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inocente
Guest
Is wisdom a thing?
A dictionary definition of wisdom is the ability to make good judgments based on what you have learned from your experience, or the knowledge and understanding that gives you this ability.
Which sounds as though wisdom is a complex skill, akin to playing the violin. Some only scratch a noise, some manage to get a tune, some are sublime. There are degrees of ability and degrees of learning.
Also the definition implies that wisdom can be the use of whatever knowledge and experience we currently possess, just as a great musician might produce better music from a cheap fiddle than a poor musician can get from a Stradivarius.
Forgive the intrusion.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
**
When I do what I know I should not, it is love I lack, not wisdom or faith. Obedience to God is not wisdom, so could it be love?**
We obey God because we love God, yes. We do not wish to offend the one we love.
But to see this also is wisdom. Some cannot or refuse to see this. They are foolish.
**
When I do what I know I should not, it is love I lack, not wisdom or faith. Obedience to God is not wisdom, so could it be love?**
We obey God because we love God, yes. We do not wish to offend the one we love.
But to see this also is wisdom. Some cannot or refuse to see this. They are foolish.
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spockrates
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Glad you’ve joined the dialog, inocente.
Yes, that is a concise definition, but is it clear enough to settle the matter? It is helpful, in that it defines wisdom as making a good judgement, rather than taking some good action. Hence, wisdom is what we think, instead of what we do.
However, it is unclear as to what makes one judgement good and another judgement bad. Consider the motion picture The Road. A worldwide disaster kills all of the vegetation on earth. In turn, the animals all die off. A boy and his father are on the road seeking food and shelter. They run into canibals who are seeking the same.
Now the boy and his father believe they are showing good judgment by treating strangers as those who are valued, cared for and protected. The canibals believe they are showing good judgement by treating strangers as those who are hunted, killed and eaten. Which group makes a judgement that is good depends, I suppose on the judgement as to what is good is a good one or not! But how can one make a judgement that is good if he is ignorant about what good really is?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
A boy and his father are on the road seeking food and shelter. They run into canibals who are seeking the same.
How is it the boy, his father, and the cannibals are all still alive when everything else is dead?
A boy and his father are on the road seeking food and shelter. They run into canibals who are seeking the same.
How is it the boy, his father, and the cannibals are all still alive when everything else is dead?
S
spockrates
Guest
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/LQ/the-road-470-1109-mdn.jpgspock
A boy and his father are on the road seeking food and shelter. They run into canibals who are seeking the same.
How is it the boy, his father, and the cannibals are all still alive when everything else is dead?
The boy and his father scavenge for food. They search deserted homes, restaurants, stores and find some canned goods to keep them alive. At one point in the film, they find a homemade bomb shelter filled with weeks worth of canned goods and water. Later, they find an old man wandering along the same road, and they share some of the little food they have with him. Here is a trailer for the film:
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CE8QtwIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcamI8yuoy8U&ei=8mYSUpupHpTeyQHNsoAo&usg=AFQjCNHHJDY2GZ2KP0rdKrsNp19lEfYwOg
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
**The boy and his father scavenge for food. They search deserted homes, restaurants, stores and find some canned goods to keep them alive. At one point in the film, they find a homemade bomb shelter filled with weeks worth of canned goods and water. Later, they find an old man wandering along the same road, and they share some of the little food they have with him. **
If they could find canned goods, why can’t the cannibals also find them?
If they could find canned goods, why can’t the cannibals also find them?
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spockrates
Guest
And as Saint John the Apostle says:
We love because he first loved us.
(1 John 4:19)
Not so sure one can refuse to see truth. Although refusing to accept the truth one sees is probably probable. Mother Teresa said:
“Once you see truth, you can’t unsee it!”
But what of the one who sees truth, but still refuses to obey? Is he not the greater fool?
S
spockrates
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)**The boy and his father scavenge for food. They search deserted homes, restaurants, stores and find some canned goods to keep them alive. At one point in the film, they find a homemade bomb shelter filled with weeks worth of canned goods and water. Later, they find an old man wandering along the same road, and they share some of the little food they have with him. **
If they could find canned goods, why can’t the cannibals also find them?
The hunters were many, hunted in large packs and continued to survive on fresh “game”! The hunted were few, separated, and their numbers dwindled. The hunted were able to survive on what they could scavenge because of their small numbers. When they found small amounts of food, there was just enough for each of them to stay alive.
I found the movie thought-provoking, but disturbing.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
**I found the movie thought-provoking, but disturbing. **
Sounds like the plot has a few holes in it. Oh well, that’s entertainment!
**I found the movie thought-provoking, but disturbing. **
Sounds like the plot has a few holes in it. Oh well, that’s entertainment!
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
**Not so sure one can refuse to see truth. Although refusing to accept the truth one sees is probably probable. Mother Teresa said:
Not so sure about that. People have been known to lie to themselves. Can’t they also lie to themselves about something they’ve seen?
How else do we explain the person who loses his faith?
**Not so sure one can refuse to see truth. Although refusing to accept the truth one sees is probably probable. Mother Teresa said:
Code:
"Once you see truth, you can't unsee it!"**How else do we explain the person who loses his faith?
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spockrates
Guest
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
spock
Perhaps I need to unsee the truth that I cannot unsee the truth?
Or one can only unsee the truth by lying to oneself that one no longer sees it.
Are we conscious of lying to ourselves when we lie to ourselves?
Whew! :crutches:
Perhaps I need to unsee the truth that I cannot unsee the truth?
Or one can only unsee the truth by lying to oneself that one no longer sees it.
Are we conscious of lying to ourselves when we lie to ourselves?
Whew! :crutches:
S
spockrates
Guest
Sorry for missing your reply. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “not using wisdom.” It seems to me wisdom might be what one has or has not, rather than what one uses or uses not. For example: I might have wisdom about a certain behavior, knowing I should not do it. If I choose to commit the harmful behavior anyway, I still use the wisdom I have. For I think to myself, “Spockrates, you should not be doing this!” So rather than choose not to use, I choose not to do as wisdom tells me I should.
Saint Paul describes this paradox of not obeying one’s own wisdom:
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature** a slave to the law of sin.
(Romans 7)
What he seems to be saying is, perhaps that there are two charioteers fighting to guide each chariot: One is the rightful owner of the chariot, who we already identify as Wisdom. The other is an enemy combatant who has somehow boarded the chariot and is trying to take the reigns from wisdom. Seems the epic stuff of which great action films are made, but do you agree with the premise? Do you and I have some kind of enemy to our wisdom fighting for control of our volition?**
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