How spiritual beings can sustain themselves?

[MtnDwellar]

How do you know that electromagnetic force ceases to exist in the absence of material?
He has not told me why yet? Perhaps, you could ask Him?

It’s almost impossible to know whether or not magnetic forces exist in the absence of material. Consider a perfect vacuum. The vacuum could not be perfect if a detector or other means of measurement was introduced. We only know a magnetic force exists if there is a material on which it acts.

 

[BobCatholic]

So they can affect on material without spending energy? This is logically impossible unless you accept they are like God: having something out of nothing.

I don’t know what this means.

Please explain.

If they have the ability to NOT NEED physical things to be sustained, how are they “spending energy” (energy is a physical thing).

They’re spiritual beings, not subject to the laws of economics (which deals with the allocation of physical things)

 

[Mary_Estelle]

It surprises me that Baham would choose a Catholic forum to pose his theories as he knows that they can not be proven or disproven and are only theories and not factual. As a theory is essentualy an abstract or a construct until a solid foundation is laid out, and can be proved that it is no longer a theory, but factual as in grounded and mathematical science.

Thus…my theory… is that Baham is trying to envoke doubt to the belief in, and undermine faith as a whole. Your right. I can not prove my theory, either. I do and applaud enlightenment and concede that Baham is of high IQ, but can not see where his mental acuity is making a better world for mankind or where his arguments on mostly unproven physics on the nature of the supernatural/God universe, can pull so many in. These are not winnable discourses and Banam well knows this. I do wonder what Baham’s ultimate goal is…don’t you? Peace.

 

[GEddie]

So they are gods or Gods?

Nope.

You already knew this, but in the Abrahamic theologies, there is only one God.

And whether bodied or not, all non-Gods are sustained by Him.

ICXC NIKA

 

[e_c]

Here’s my response to all future Bahman threads. It’s from the introduction to the Summa Theologica.

Because the doctor of Catholic truth ought not only to teach the proficient, but also to instruct beginners (according to the Apostle: As unto little ones in Christ, I gave you milk to drink, not meat – 1 Corinthians 3:1-2), we purpose in this book to treat of whatever belongs to the Christian religion, in such a way as may tend to the instruction of beginners. We have considered that students in this doctrine have not seldom been hampered by what they have found written by other authors, partly on account of the multiplication of useless questions, articles, and arguments, partly also because those things that are needful for them to know are not taught according to the order of the subject matter, but according as the plan of the book might require, or the occasion of the argument offer, partly, too, because frequent repetition brought weariness and confusion to the minds of readers.

Endeavouring to avoid these and other like faults, we shall try, by God’s help, to set forth whatever is included in this sacred doctrine as briefly and clearly as the matter itself may allow.

 

[MaryHelp777]

Don’t waste your breath. I’ve been telling him the same thing for around two years now and he just doesn’t seem interested in actually expanding his base of knowledge.

My friend Bahman told me in a post that “He has not time to read catholic books, so a Catholic forum is his idea”

Now my friend Bahman. Spend that next 2 years reading the catholic catechism and St Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologia in your own language,
This is where you will learn from the experts,

Instead of wasting your time on this catholic forum that does have some lapsed Catholics, aetheists, unbelieving Catholics, rebellious Catholics, non Catholics, etc…
There are of course devout informed Catholics here but also a mix of the above.

Also: Bahman, are you just here to wind us all up as a favourite pastime??
One of your threads is about your belief that something can be right and wrong at the same time. And how you believe catholicism is made up of statements that can be true and false at the same time.

All your threads are attempts to prove a true element of catholicism is false. And then you proceed to continue to prove that any catholic posters comments are false.

God is not real and not real.
God is not right and wrong at the same time.

God is real and is the only truth in everything.

Is there not a better way to learn about catholicism than giving your own statements and not listening to the other side.?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m reminded of the Greek myths here. The Greeks believed (or said they did) that the gods were sustained by the odor arising from the sacrifices the Greeks performed.

I had to chuckle when I first read about that. You see, the Greeks would sacrifice, say, a steer or young bull. The gods were expected to subsist on the smell, while the Greeks themselves ate the meat. A practical theology, that.

But more seriously, spiritual beings do not “sustain themselves”. They are sustained by being in the Mind of God. But for His knowledge of them and His desire for their existence, they would cease to exist entirely.

One wonders about whether spiritual beings, like angels, can affect material things in the same way we can. My guess is that they cannot do so of their own power. Nor is it necessary for them to do so. If God has created incredibly complex “rules” of existence (and we know they’re complex and that we understand little of them) He might well have implanted that set of knowledge into the intellects of angels, who then “participate” in the rules and the movement created by them. Similarly, an apparent physical action of an angel might simply be a sharing of Divine foreknowledge of a material event that was foreordained so that the angel was expressed in a sensible form in human brains when it occurred. In that sense, then, the angel “caused”, not the physical movement itself, but the impression of it by “coordinating” with it in order to make its meaning manifest.

I can’t prove any of that, of course. But it’s interesting to think about.

 

[drac16]

Muslims believe in creatures known as jinns. Jinns are invisible creatures who have a need to eat in order to survive. Like humans, each jinn has likes and dislikes, feelings, desires, religiosity (or lack thereof). Jinns eat bones and scraps of food. I don’t know if they drink, though. They can only eat the bones on which the name of Allah has been mentioned. The eater has to say “Bismillah”, which means “In the name of God”.

I said Bismillah earlier today when I was eating some chicken wings. I have faith that if a jinn goes through my house, it will eat the bones that are left over. Angels on the other hand have no need to eat or drink.

 

[E_7]

We know that human, animal, plants, etc. need to eat to survive, reproduce and act. How about spiritual beings? Do they eat some thing? If no, how they could act!

There is more info on demons (bad angels) than of good angels. From the experts on the topic: spiritualdirection.com/spiritual-warfare

Or in case you won’t read the posts on the link, some posts of the Exorcist Fr. Fortea:

In the world of demons, like that of people, some do one thing and others do different things. Demons, of course, cannot build houses, grow food, construct machines, nor do any of the things human beings spend so much time on. Most of the time, demons occupy themselves with going deeper into the world of knowledge, in having relationships among themselves, and in tempting people.

The intellectual world is such a vast world that the demons occupy themselves in it completely like us. In a university, for example, there can be hundreds of professors with each one specializing in some branch of knowledge. Hundreds of professors and deans work hours daily in a university and all this work and activity produces just one thing: knowledge. The same thing happens in the world of the angelic spirits.

Relationships among pure spirits may not seem important, but the demons have real, complex social relationships. These relationships are not based merely on knowledge but also on the pleasure of communicating with one another and helping each other tempt humans.​

Demons, as pure spirits, do not need a language to communicate with each other; they simply communicate at will through the power of thought. Human beings communicate through words, which are symbolic representations of our thoughts. Spiritual beings, on the other hand, transmit thought in a pure state without the need for mediation or signs.​

A demon is a spiritual being of an angelic nature that has been condemned for eternity due to his rebellion against God. As pure spirits, demons are not made up of matter. Because they do not have bodies, demons are not inclined to any “sins of the flesh” (i.e., it is impossible for them to commit the sins of lust or gluttony). The sins of demons are exclusively spiritual. But they can tempt human beings to sin in matters of the flesh.

Demons were not created evil. (In fact, it is impossible for God, who is Goodness itself, to create anything evil.) Remember: demons are just “bad angels.” After God created the angels, He tested their fidelity to Him before admitting them to the Beatific Vision, the sight of His very essence. For purely spiritual beings, this “seeing” of God’s essence would be a purely intellectual vision. Some angels obeyed the divine test; others did not. Those who disobeyed were irreversibly transformed into demons and cast out of heaven.

It may seem surprising that some angels would choose to hate God. But we need to understand that those who rebelled saw God no longer as a good–as the Good–but as the oppressor of their freedom. Hate was born as their wills resisted the call of God and held fast to the decision to leave the Father’s house.

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him (Rv 12:7-9).

How can purely spiritual beings fight among themselves? What weapons do they use? Angels are spirits, so their battles must be purely intellectual. The only weapons that they can use are intellectual arguments. The angels gave reasons to the rebels for why they should return to obedience to God. The rebel angels countered with their reasons to support their position and spread their rebellion among the faithful angels. In this epic angelic battle, some who were inclined to rebel returned to obedience, while some of the faithful angels were seduced by the evil arguments of the rebels.

In art, demons are depicted as deformed and grotesque beings. This would seem appropriate given that demons have definitively decided on a destiny far from God. The interior loneliness in which they find themselves forever and their envy of the faithful who enjoy the Beatific Vision continually bring them face-to-face with their sins. They hate God, themselves, and all those who seek to serve God.

But not all suffer the same pains. Some angels were deformed more than others in the battle. Those who were more deformed suffer more; the least deformed suffer less. The intellects of the rebellious angels were deformed and darkened by the very reasons they used to justify the rebellion of their wills against God.

Their plight is similar to the moral debasement that humans can suffer through sin. We need to remember that we are composite creatures made up of soul and body. Aside from the sins that are proper to the body, the internal psychological process that leads a good person to end up in the Mafia or as a guard in a concentration camp or a terrorist is essentially the same as the sequence of acts of intellect and will that led to the fall of the bad angels.

Though we are body-soul composites, we as humans have only to look into our own interior life to understand how we can fall into sin. In this light, the sin of the angels becomes more easily understood.

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Continued below

 

[E_7]

We have already discussed that each demon sinned in a certain way and with a determined intensity. While the angelic rebellion against God had its roots in pride, from this root other sins grew. This can be clearly seen during an exorcism, when the particular demons possessing the person display sins of anger, self-worship, and desperation, among others. Each demon has its own psychology and its own way of being. For example, some are talkative, others are mocking; some are proud, others are hateful. Even though they all turned away from God, some demons are more evil than others.

As St. Paul and the tradition of the Church indicate, we need to remember that there are nine hierarchies of angels (from highest to lowest): seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels. The superior hierarchies are more powerful, beautiful, and intelligent than the inferior ones. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, each angel is completely different from other angels. In sociological terms, there are no angelic “races”; rather, each one is its own species. As we have said, though, it is possible to group the angels into hierarchies. These hierarchies are also called choirs, since these groups form themselves into choirs that sing praises to God. Their praise is obviously not that of the voice, but rather a spiritual type of praise that comes from their will to know and love the Trinity.

Because some angels from each of the nine hierarchies sinned and transformed themselves into demons, a demonic hierarchy exists. In other words, there are demons that are principalities, virtues, powers, etc. Even though they are demons, they retain their particular angelic power and intelligence.

Exorcisms have shown that superior demons can have power over inferior ones. What does this power consist of? This is something that is impossible for us to know because we cannot see how one demon forces another to do something, since there is no body to push or force. Nevertheless, a more powerful demon can prevent a less powerful one from leaving the body of a possessed person during an exorcism. Even though the weaker demon is suffering and wants to leave, the stronger one may impede it.

---

The natural deals with the laws of the physical world, i.e., the workings of nature, whereas the preternatural concerns things or events which appear outside or apart from (Latin praeter) the laws of the physical world. The supernatural concerns things or events beyond or above (Latin super) any created nature; it is proper only to God Himself.

Demons can engage in preternatural activities such as making an object levitate or transforming something instantly. They can do things that go beyond the material world, but they cannot act beyond their angelic nature. Their powers are limited, even in the physical world. God can create something from nothing; a demon cannot.

We can see these realms operating in our souls. For example, beautiful scenery can remind us of the beauty of God, and this is something natural. Meanwhile, an angel or a demon can send inspirations directly into one’s mind. God can go further than that–He can send spiritual graces (of repentance, of thanksgiving, etc.) to the deepest depths of one’s spirit, causing radical changes in a second. All working of grace is supernatural; grace is always sent directly by God.

 

[Bahman]

How do you know that electromagnetic force ceases to exist in the absence of material?

Electromagnetic field is the result of charge and spin particles. Movement of such a particle also create electromagnetic field.

He has not told me why yet? Perhaps, you could ask Him?

He doesn’t answer me. I hoped you have answer for that was who claimed that that is God sustain everything.

 

[Bahman]

I didn’t state that Angels are not bound to laws of nature, only that conventional physics do not apply.

Conventional physics includes laws such as conservation of mass and energy. Einstein has shown that these laws do not apply in all cases. In fact, there is an equivalency between the two.

A definition of God is way more extensive than merely creating things out of nothing, although that is one of His attributes. Angels cannot create something out of nothing. Matter can be created from energy.

So my naive question is that how could act without spending any energy?

 

[Bahman]

I don’t know what this means.

Please explain.

I mean if Angels could act on physical then they need energy to do so. They however has no energy since they are spiritual so how possibly they could affect material world?

If they have the ability to NOT NEED physical things to be sustained, how are they “spending energy” (energy is a physical thing).

Do you believe that angels can affect material beings?

They’re spiritual beings, not subject to the laws of economics (which deals with the allocation of physical things)

I have no ideas what this could mean.

 

[Bahman]

It surprises me that Baham would choose a Catholic forum to pose his theories as he knows that they can not be proven or disproven and are only theories and not factual. As a theory is essentualy an abstract or a construct until a solid foundation is laid out, and can be proved that it is no longer a theory, but factual as in grounded and mathematical science.

I found this forum by chance. I founded that I could find the answer to my question either directly or indirectly by debating with people. Debating also strengthen my mind abilities.

Thus…my theory… is that Baham is trying to envoke doubt to the belief in, and undermine faith as a whole. Your right. I can not prove my theory, either. I do and applaud enlightenment and concede that Baham is of high IQ, but can not see where his mental acuity is making a better world for mankind or where his arguments on mostly unproven physics on the nature of the supernatural/God universe, can pull so many in. These are not winnable discourses and Banam well knows this. I do wonder what Baham’s ultimate goal is…don’t you? Peace.

That is part of my responsibility do debate with people when I find that what they believe is wrong. You can call it spreading doubt. I simply call it fruitful discussion.

 

[Bahman]

Nope.

You already knew this, but in the Abrahamic theologies, there is only one God.

And whether bodied or not, all non-Gods are sustained by Him.

ICXC NIKA

So what is your response to OP: How spiritual beings like Angels could act and survive if they simply don’t consume energy somehow?

 

[mikekle]

Muslims believe in creatures known as jinns. Jinns are invisible creatures who have a need to eat in order to survive. Like humans, each jinn has likes and dislikes, feelings, desires, religiosity (or lack thereof). Jinns eat bones and scraps of food. I don’t know if they drink, though. They can only eat the bones on which the name of Allah has been mentioned. The eater has to say “Bismillah”, which means “In the name of God”.

I said Bismillah earlier today when I was eating some chicken wings. I have faith that if a jinn goes through my house, it will eat the bones that are left over. Angels on the other hand have no need to eat or drink.

Jinns would be somewhere between humans and angels imo.I know the bible has a name for them, but I cant think of it at the moment, I want to say ‘watchers’ or something similar, ( they may be something different now that I think about it?), basically they are not as great/ powerful as angels, but far superior to humans.

 

[Bahman]

…But more seriously, spiritual beings do not “sustain themselves”. They are sustained by being in the Mind of God. But for His knowledge of them and His desire for their existence, they would cease to exist entirely…

The claim that Angels are sustained by God seems unreasonable to me. This is like hiding our ignorances on a topic when we say God does this, that, etc. To me creation should be able to sustain itself.

 

[Bahman]

We have already discussed that each demon sinned in a certain way and with a determined intensity. While the angelic rebellion against God had its roots in pride, from this root other sins grew. This can be clearly seen during an exorcism, when the particular demons possessing the person display sins of anger, self-worship, and desperation, among others. Each demon has its own psychology and its own way of being. For example, some are talkative, others are mocking; some are proud, others are hateful. Even though they all turned away from God, some demons are more evil than others.

As St. Paul and the tradition of the Church indicate, we need to remember that there are nine hierarchies of angels (from highest to lowest): seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels. The superior hierarchies are more powerful, beautiful, and intelligent than the inferior ones. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, each angel is completely different from other angels. In sociological terms, there are no angelic “races”; rather, each one is its own species. As we have said, though, it is possible to group the angels into hierarchies. These hierarchies are also called choirs, since these groups form themselves into choirs that sing praises to God. Their praise is obviously not that of the voice, but rather a spiritual type of praise that comes from their will to know and love the Trinity.

Because some angels from each of the nine hierarchies sinned and transformed themselves into demons, a demonic hierarchy exists. In other words, there are demons that are principalities, virtues, powers, etc. Even though they are demons, they retain their particular angelic power and intelligence.

Exorcisms have shown that superior demons can have power over inferior ones. What does this power consist of? This is something that is impossible for us to know because we cannot see how one demon forces another to do something, since there is no body to push or force. Nevertheless, a more powerful demon can prevent a less powerful one from leaving the body of a possessed person during an exorcism. Even though the weaker demon is suffering and wants to leave, the stronger one may impede it.

---

The natural deals with the laws of the physical world, i.e., the workings of nature, whereas the preternatural concerns things or events which appear outside or apart from (Latin praeter) the laws of the physical world. The supernatural concerns things or events beyond or above (Latin super) any created nature; it is proper only to God Himself.

Demons can engage in preternatural activities such as making an object levitate or transforming something instantly. They can do things that go beyond the material world, but they cannot act beyond their angelic nature. Their powers are limited, even in the physical world. God can create something from nothing; a demon cannot.

We can see these realms operating in our souls. For example, beautiful scenery can remind us of the beauty of God, and this is something natural. Meanwhile, an angel or a demon can send inspirations directly into one’s mind. God can go further than that–He can send spiritual graces (of repentance, of thanksgiving, etc.) to the deepest depths of one’s spirit, causing radical changes in a second. All working of grace is supernatural; grace is always sent directly by God.

You didn’t answer to my question: How Angels (for example) can sustain themselves and act?

 

[MtnDwellar]

So my naive question is that how could act without spending any energy?

It’s not naïve. The spiritual world is vast and complex.
They act only by the use of their intellect and will which are far superior to ours.

Can’t you conceive of a means using only intellect and will by which Angels could influence the natural world?

 

[Bahman]

It’s not naïve. The spiritual world is vast and complex.

What do you mean with vast? Angels have no form so why spiritual world shouldn’t be vast?

They act only by the use of their intellect and will which are far superior to ours.

We also act and we need to spend energy to perform any simple task. What is equivalent of energy in Angel case?

Can’t you conceive of a means using only intellect and will by which Angels could influence the natural world?

I think influencing material world require energy or something like energy (previous comment). Moreover any interaction between natural world and spiritual world should be mutual. How we cannot influence spiritual world whereas Angels could?