How study can hinder holiness

[AlanFromWichita]

I was just observing myself and wondering if I was avoiding responsibility by diving into study. You know, like when we talk ABOUT Jesus yet never talk TO Him.

 

[mathematoons]

I love the anti-intellectualism in this thread.

Without study, how do you avoid falling into heresy? How do you know anything about our faith? It’s not just a bunch of warm, mushy feelings. You can’t know God unless you know about Him.

Believe it or not, some of us have full time jobs PLUS exam study and still manage to study the faith well AND find an hour a day to pray.

No wonder so many people think Christians are morons. It’s because of pompous, arrogant anti-intellectuals like everyone on this thread.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

No wonder so many people think Christians are morons. It’s because of pompous, arrogant anti-intellectuals like everyone on this thread.

This is a prime example of what we’re talking about. You think you are better than everyone else because you do all this busy work. No wonder people think Christians are unloving, intolerant and judgmental.

Read 1 Cor 13 and find out how much that knowledge and busy work you treasure so much means, when you use that very effort as a reason to place yourself above others.

But your post refers to pompous, arrogant, anti-intellectuals. But you come across as a pompous, arrogant intellectual – which is a harder problem to solve. You know why I know? Because I was one for almost 40 years, but I thank the Lord for He has delivered me from that miserable life.

I have a colleague I will call upon for further reflection on this topic:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Alan

 

[Sirach2]

We all could take to heart the words in Ch. 2 of the Imitation of Christ with respect to this topic. I think the bolded sentence sums up what many have said in this thread.

Those who have great learning desire, generally, to be accounted wise in the world. But there are many things whose knowledge brings but little profit and little fruit to the soul. Words do not feed the soul, but a good life refreshes the mind, and a clean conscience brings a man to a firm and stable trust in God.

The more knowledge you have, the more grievously will you be judged for its misuse, if you do not live according to it. Therefore, do not lift yourself up into pride because of any skill or knowledge that is given you, but have the more fear and dread in your heart – for it is certain that, hereafter, you must yield a stricter accounting.

Not to presume of himself, but always to judge and think well and blessedly of another, is a sign and token of great wisdom and of great perfection.

 

[InJesusItrust]

No wonder so many people think Christians are morons. It’s because of pompous, arrogant anti-intellectuals like everyone on this thread.

Me too?

I like studying technical things and do so, but I could not help noticing that it sometimes makes me haughty.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

There are two videos I think apropos to the OP topic.

They are by philosopher Alan Watts. He is not Catholic, although he knows a lot about Catholicism. His relatives had some excerpts from his speeches animated by Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

This one is about intellectual people v. “warm-fuzzy” people. I think this speaks directly to the OP:

Prickles and Goo – Alan Watts 2:36

This one is about trying to make sense out of things that cannot be technically analyzed. “What do clouds mean?” “What does the shape of a tree mean?”:

Madness – Alan Watts 2:44

Enjoy.

Peace and love,
Alan

 

[mommyof4]

I love the anti-intellectualism in this thread.

Without study, how do you avoid falling into heresy? How do you know anything about our faith? It’s not just a bunch of warm, mushy feelings. You can’t know God unless you know about Him.

Believe it or not, some of us have full time jobs PLUS exam study and still manage to study the faith well AND find an hour a day to pray.

No wonder so many people think Christians are morons. It’s because of pompous, arrogant anti-intellectuals like everyone on this thread.

Ouch. Maybe you can read some books on charity towards ones neighbor and come back and enlighten us?

 

[iloveangels]

Ouch. Maybe you can read some books on charity towards ones neighbor and come back and enlighten us?

That’s not an uncharitable post. This is an anti-intellectual thread.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

That’s not an uncharitable post. This is an anti-intellectual thread.

It is a thread where we examine the effects of excessive focus on academics and too little focus on other practices in faith formation.

Or for the intellectually challenged, were talking about: v

You have chosen to assign it a nefarious purpose. :manvspc:

Alan

 

[Bookcat]

Solid theology is a very good basis for good spirituality…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Solid theology is a very good basis for good spirituality…

I agree. CAF has been a tremendous blessing to me in that department.

Alan

 

[mommyof4]

For those of you who are claiming this is an “anti-intellectual thread,” I disagree with you. I am not an anti-intellectual. I am currently taking graduate- level classes in theology, and one look at my kindle, nook, and real life bookshelf will show you that I am no light weight when it comes to spiritual readings, and I am always seeking to grow in my knowledge of Church teachings and spirituality. However, I do think, as some of the other posters are stating, that there comes a time during your day that you need to put the book down and go LIVE your faith, too. For goodness sakes, what good does it do you to read 100 books and articles about the corporal and spiritual works of mercy if you don’t ever get off your backside and perform one! No one here is saying “don’t study your faith.” Yes, KNOW IT, but DO IT too!

 

[Lady_Love]

We all could take to heart the words in Ch. 2 of the Imitation of Christ with respect to this topic. I think the bolded sentence sums up what many have said in this thread.

"Quote:
Those who have great learning desire, generally, to be accounted wise in the world. But there are many things whose knowledge brings but little profit and little fruit to the soul. Words do not feed the soul, but a good life refreshes the mind, and a clean conscience brings a man to a firm and stable trust in God.

The more knowledge you have, the more grievously will you be judged for its misuse, if you do not live according to it. Therefore, do not lift yourself up into pride because of any skill or knowledge that is given you, but have the more fear and dread in your heart – for it is certain that, hereafter, you must yield a stricter accounting.

Not to presume of himself, but always to judge and think well and blessedly of another, is a sign and token of great wisdom and of great perfection."



THIS! This is what I mean. I am not anti-intelligence. I am anti-NOTputtingitintoaction. “To whom much is given, much is expected.”

I think I like to study because it makes me feel like I am doing something without ever having to do anything. But when I face Jesus and He says, “When I was naked…when I was hungry…when I was…imprisoned…”

I get to say, “I was studying about it.”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The Good News, is that when we do reach the point where we begin to see the kingdom, our knowledge will increase rapidly.

But this type of knowledge is not academic. It can be described in endless libraries, but never known until it is experienced.

I’m not so interested in the mechanics of how all the different categories of sin are defined. I’ll let another part of the Body work on that, because I get really bored with that topic.

I want to know the real mysteries. They mysteries of the kingdom. The state of mind where I can love my enemies, be first by being last, be greatest by being a servant, etc. Jesus gives us these memes for a reason. You can debate over them academically, but once your “faith eyes” are open they will make such good sense that they almost go without saying. These are the things my mind wonders about, not whether I can memorize half the Catechism. I’ve had plenty of technical exercises, and successes – in 7th grade (1972) I won the math contest for the archdiocese of Chicago, among 420 schools. So I was clearly a nerd and had no social life. Now I want to know REAL knowledge. I want to ponder in as many ways as moments I have left to live, the Trinity. The REAL passion. How could He forgive on the Cross under those circumstances? What would it feel like to be the “good thief” on the cross next to Jesus – or for that matter the “bad” one? Simon of Cerene? THOSE are kind of mysteries worth spending time pondering if my goal is to become closer to God.

Luke 8:17-18
For there is nothing hidden that will not become visible, and nothing secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care, then, how you hear. To anyone who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he seems to have will be taken away.”

I sincerely challenge anybody who thinks this thread is anti-intellectual, to find and join a prayer group that does Lectio Divina (“Divine Reading”) at least weekly, and after six months come back and give us an updated opinion. If you do Lectio, then you will know what it is like to experience the deeper senses of scripture, compared to only the literal. Note also that if you don’t do Lectio or other contemplative prayer expression, you’re missing out as the CCC says you “should.” (2708)

Actually I own a forum with an online way to discuss our reactions to scripture without having to analyze what it means; I call it Lectio Wordsfree. You can check it out, and if you like it you can join us – best way to register is not on site, just PM me with your email and desired login. Lectio Wordsfree – but seriously if you’re a stereotypical trad you won’t want to go there because, for example, we discuss certain Franciscans – so don’t say I didn’t warn you.

Now, when we enter the kingdom (by being like a child, not like a nerd) we see all kinds of things and mysteries in different ways. And in everyday life mysteries and paradoxes just unfold as you go along, sometimes in a seemingly random order: “more will be given.”

And then when we accomplish this, we can compare what we see, to what all the intellectual-only see. They have great theological things to say, but you wonder why their view is so sterile.

I will now present my final arguments in defense of this thread:

Matt 13:10-17
The disciples approached him and said, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”

He said to them in reply, “Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted.

To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

This is why I speak to them in parables, because ‘they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.’
Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says:

‘You shall indeed hear but not understand
you shall indeed look but never see.

Gross is the heart of this people,
they will hardly hear with their ears,
they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart and be converted,
and I heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear. Amen, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

And I will leave you with the well-known words of our Savior: “Whoever has ears ought to hear.”

Alan

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

I want to know the real mysteries. They mysteries of the kingdom. The state of mind where I can love my enemies, be first by being last, be greatest by being a servant, etc.

I would advise meditating on the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary, which are a meditation on the Life of Christ. All virtues and mysteries are profoundly explored by meditating on the life of Jesus Christ through the specific 20 mysteries of different events in his life. That along with reading the Scriptures and prayer, will unlock everything you are seeking…

we discuss certain Franciscans – so don’t say I didn’t warn you.

If by this you mean Fr=. Richard Rohr, I would suggest you listen to Catholic Answer’s interview about the New Age deception where they mention these errors which have creeped into Rohr’s teachings. My advice is to steer clear of any group who uses his books.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I would advise meditating on the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary, which are a meditation on the Life of Christ. All virtues and mysteries are profoundly explored by meditating on the life of Jesus Christ through the specific 20 mysteries of different events in his life. That along with reading the Scriptures and prayer, will unlock everything you are seeking…

That’s an excellent idea! I think I will do this yet tonight.

If by this you mean Fr=. Richard Rohr, I would suggest you listen to Catholic Answer’s interview about the New Age deception where they mention these errors which have creeped into Rohr’s teachings. My advice is to steer clear of any group who uses his books.

Thank you for the warning, but as I alluded to I am aware he’s not accepted by certain Catholics on CAF. I’m aware of what is said about him, and I choose to read and discuss his daily emails which do not generally contain the more “troubling” of his apparently innovative views. But I was helped by some of his work a friend forwarded to me when I needed it. His teaching on non-dualistic thinking in and of itself was a key factor in my own mental/emotional/spiritual healing. :yup:

I see it like finding a diamond in a field. I choose to come show people the diamond, and they choose to tell me the field is full of dirt.

Alan

 

[SaintPatrick333]

My talents is in math and computers. I do not know how to give more glory to God. Most other people with this aptitude tend to be earthly minded.

Depending on where your expertise lies with computers you could put your skills to use online with the new evangelization occurring all over the web, primarily on social media sites like facebook that draw in millions of people.

 

[AnotherVoice]

I think that reading is a required part of being a practicing Catholic. Generally, anyone who wants to improve reads and then reads some more. If your doctor proudly informed you that he had not read any medical material since completing residency 15 years ago; are you coming back? Accountants that don’t read the tax codes, lawyers that depend upon the judge to correct their positions regarding matters of law – I don’t think I would sign on with them.

There is the doing part of our faith and the learning part; we need to have a balance. If you are pressed for time, read an Encyclical Letter. The authors are very reputable and they are free on the Vatican web site.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That’s not an uncharitable post. This is an anti-intellectual thread.

Consider me another who shares your sentiments. (Then again, I’ve always felt the same way about this particular section of CAF.)

It’s rather ironic that all the intellectuals I read about and chat with actually APPLY what they learn. (By the way, application would be the term also used by the OP when contrasting ‘studying’ with ‘doing’.)

In reality, actual study is both. Frankly, I don’t know what century you must be living in to still assume anyone who is reading something only does so to waste time being a know-it-all. If that were the case then Google is overrated.

Mark my words. When you see someone trying to learn something, they have plans for it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think that reading is a required part of being a practicing Catholic.

“Required?” :doh2:

So if you can’t read, then you can’t be a practicing Catholic, right?

What did people do for the centuries when the overwhelming majority of Catholics were illiterate? When was the first Catechism printed and distributed – how could Catholics be saved?

Let’s go back over this “required” business. Would we agree the precepts of the Church would give us a starting point for that discussion? We’re going by the CCC, right? Anybody disagree so far?

CCC 2041
The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

So it is “very necessary” to follow the precepts of the Church, and they constitute the minimum we have to do as Catholics (2402, 2043):

1. “You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”
2. “You shall confess your sins at least once a year”
3. “You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season”
4. “You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church”
5. “You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church”
   The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his own abilities.

Show me in the above list of “guaranteed minimum” it says anything about reading, or studying Church Teachings. It isn’t there. Do you know why? Because reading is NOT “required” by the Church. It’s said to be required by people who think they know a lot and that others who don’t study “sufficiently” are not practicing Catholics. This means that these intellectuals are placing their own “knowledge” ahead of the Church’s teachings, and don’t even know it. Hence, the whole point of this thread.

1 Cor 8:2-3
If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.

OK so this proves that reading and study are NOT “required” by the Church. But what if we do study a lot. Doesn’t that get us anything? Well, if you look down on other people because they don’t study enough, then you are acting in an unloving fashion IMO and of course we’ve all heard it from the letter read at so many weddings:

1 Cor 13:2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

So study and knowledge is neither required by the Church, nor does it guarantee salvation.

You people are making this too easy.

Consider me another who shares your sentiments. (Then again, I’ve always felt the same way about this particular section of CAF.)

Your sentiments are indeed showing. If you hold disdain toward the entire “spirituality” section, then I don’t know what else to tell you because you have already played your cards. If, contrary to Church teachings, you think it’s all “black and white” then I’m not sure I can help you. If you didn’t know anything about the spiritual journey and Divine Union, that would be OK – but to actively look down upon spirituality in favor of intellectual knowledge is not. This is a constant theme for Jesus, and yet is so hard to see from people with their academic blinders on, reinforced by fear or other obstacle from learning “true” knowledge – knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom I spoke of in my earlier post.

It’s rather ironic that all the intellectuals I read about and chat with actually APPLY what they learn. (By the way, application would be the term also used by the OP when contrasting ‘studying’ with ‘doing’.)

Then learn that reading and book study are neither required nor sufficient for salvation.

Let’s talk about APPLYING what you know. Back to contemplative prayer. Do you practice contemplative prayer? If not, then you need to APPLY your knowledge of CCC 2700-2724, and heed the term “should” in 2708.

People get on my case about asking about their prayer lives, but here you are calling down my friends and me who are non-intellectuals – or we are intellectuals but see there’s another side of life – so I’m going to defend us. If you are so good at “practicing” the lessons of the Church, get your own prayer life up to what the CCC says it “should” be then come back and call us disobedient or lazy for not being like you.

Mark my words. When you see someone trying to learn something, they have plans for it.

I suspect you are right on that. They may be trying humbly to learn, or they may be arrogantly trying to build a Tower of Babel. Or who knows? They may be learning to fly 747s so they can crash them into buildings.

Alan