How study can hinder holiness

[AnotherVoice]

Oh, hey, I totally agree with you here. :yup:

I was responding to your “think … reading … required” and I did take that as your personal opinion and not an absolutist claim, so my goal was to fill in the blanks, not tell you that you were in error. There was no error on your part, that I saw then or see now.

But taken in context especially with the rest of this post, I think we see eye to eye.

Alan

Thank you.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If you didn’t know anything about the spiritual journey and Divine Union, that would be OK – but to actively look down upon spirituality in favor of intellectual knowledge is not.

Oh I don’t look down on spirituality in favor of intellectual knowledge.
So many ‘spiritual’ folks here have done that for me plenty of times.

This is a constant theme for Jesus, and yet is so hard to see from people with their academic blinders on, reinforced by fear or other obstacles from learning “true” knowledge – knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom I spoke of in my earlier post.

Knowledge is conceptually opposed to fear as it is conceptually opposed to any emotion. Why are you putting them in the same category?

If anyone knows fear, I would rank among the top. Fear is born either out of irrational impulse or the complete lacking of knowledge. You are afraid because you are uncertain.

And contrary to your statement, pursuit of knowledge is in fact a calling to reject fear. More specifically, you must combat the fear of failure and making mistakes.

After all, knowledge is born from mistakes for mistakes serve as powerful lessons.

Then learn that reading and book study are neither required nor sufficient for salvation.

I never said they were.

I will say you will need them for ignorance has proven to enable sin as much as pride in one’s own knowledge.

Heck, one can even take pride in one’s own deliberate ignorance (which is the last thing I would have represent the faith).

Let’s talk about APPLYING what you know. Back to contemplative prayer. Do you practice contemplative prayer? If not, then you need to APPLY your knowledge of CCC 2700-2724, and heed the term “should” in 2708.

Wooow… so many assumptions.
And yet, when my answer turns out a yes (and it is)), where does that leave you?

People get on my case about asking about their prayer lives, but here you are calling down my friends and me who are non-intellectuals – or we are intellectuals but see there’s another side of life – so I’m going to defend us.

I’ve said nothing about other people’s prayer lives. (That would be your Wrong Assumption #2 by the way.)

I’ve only said everything about ‘spiritual’ people’s misguided attitude towards knowledge. Hence, the rest of your rant is irrelevant.

burns it

I suspect you are right on that. They may be trying humbly to learn, or they may be arrogantly trying to build a Tower of Babel. Or who knows? They may be learning to fly 747’s so they can crash them into buildings.

… or they could be the next Thomas Jefferson, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or anyone else that’s trying to improve civilization?

Tower of Babel? Frankly, whenever I hear this, I keep wondering why the guy talking is still on the computer and not living with the Amish.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Oh I don’t look down on spirituality in favor of intellectual knowledge.
So many ‘spiritual’ folks here have done that for me plenty of times.

I’m sorry. Your disdain for “spiritual folks” is subtle and pervasive. I could go over every sentence in your post but what’s the use? If you don’t believe St. John of the Cross, then how much should I write to try and convince you before I give up in futility? I will not disappoint, though, in that I will respond to a few of those that you are most likely to understand. I’m being sincere – if you think I’m being sarcastic or condescending that’s your choice and your problem; the point is I’ll just stick to those which should raise intellectual and logical “red flags.”

Knowledge is conceptually opposed to fear as it is conceptually opposed to any emotion. Why are you putting them in the same category?

I didn’t. I said fear and other negative emotions prevent the intellect from expanding. That’s a matter of scientific fact and is not about mood or religious teaching.

Wooow… so many assumptions.
And yet, when my answer turns out a yes (and it is)), where does that leave you?

You are intellectual enough, I’m surprised you can’t tell the difference between an assumption, and a question. If you can’t get along with “spirit” people and yet you can’t analyze English language according to the established academic rules of grammar, then perhaps I’ll just … I’ll just … let it speak for itself. :takeoff:

As far as your answer being yes, I’d say that’s awesome. You are the exception compared to those who refuse to answer a straightforward question.

I’ve said nothing about other people’s prayer lives. (That would be your Wrong Assumption #2 by the way.)

Nor did I say you did. That would be your False Claim of My Assumptions #2.

burns it

So I see …

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

… or they could be the next Thomas Jefferson, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or anyone else that’s trying to improve civilization?

Tower of Babel? Frankly, whenever I hear this, I keep wondering why the guy talking is still on the computer and not living with the Amish.

You said that people studying usually have plans for the knowledge. Yes, it is possible that people study for good; the Holy Father had to study a lot for his job, for example. I simply pointed out that the fact they are studying means zero about whether their study is virtuous…

… so my point stands, and is unaffected by your mini-rant. :nunchuk:

Thank you for taking the time to read and reply. :tiphat:

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’m sorry. Your disdain for “spiritual folks” is subtle and pervasive.

That’s their problem, not mine. Nothing you will say can bribe me into forgetting my most anti-intellectual experiences with self-described ‘spiritual’ Catholics.

I’d talk about them at length but I would derail the thread.

I didn’t. I said fear and other negative emotions prevent the intellect from expanding. That’s a matter of scientific fact and is not about mood or religious teaching.

Reread the portion I was responding to. You decry people as having ‘academic blinders’ (whatever the heck that means).

The fact that fear runs counter to pursuing knowledge is my way of showing that what you are describing as ‘scholars’, ‘academics’, or ‘intellectuals’ are far from the actual thing.

This is my problem with this thread and this entire section in general.

You are intellectual enough, I’m surprised you can’t tell the difference between an assumption, and a question. If you can’t get along with “spirit” people and yet you can’t analyze English language according to the established academic rules of grammar, then perhaps I’ll just … I’ll just … let it speak for itself. :takeoff:

Nice try: ignore the fact that your question was already loaded with an assumption.

As far as your answer being yes, I’d say that’s awesome. You are the exception compared to those who refuse to answer a straightforward question.

That doesn’t change the fact that your question was based on a false premise, a false assumption.

Nor did I say you did. That would be your False Claim of My Assumptions #2.

Read. Again:

People get on my case about asking about their prayer lives, but here you are calling down my friends and me who are non-intellectuals – or we are intellectuals but see there’s another side of life – so I’m going to defend us.

It is clear that you are trying to get confrontational with me because you think I’m talking smack about their prayer lives.

I am not.

I am just pointing the obvious fact that plenty people here have constructed a strawman of what intellectuals and knowledge-seekers are.

I simply pointed out that the fact they are studying means zero about whether their study is virtuous…

… so my point stands, and is unaffected by your mini-rant. :nunchuk:

Which is still wrong and proves my point.

Study is work. Work, diligence, and perseverance are all virtuous attributes. People acquire knowledge because it allows them to accomplish greater things.

If people were sloths in their study, you wouldn’t be here posting on CAF.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Nothing you will say can bribe me into forgetting my most anti-intellectual experiences with self-described ‘spiritual’ Catholics.

I’d talk about them at length but I would derail the thread.

True.

I’m sorry you have had “anti-intellectual” experiences. :crying:

Reread the portion I was responding to. You decry people as having ‘academic blinders’ (whatever the heck that means).

You are a prime example – the fact you don’t know it makes it obvious to everybody that it’s true. But in your case I’d make the term “academic” optional; more like some kid that just likes to fight. I had a coworker that grew up like that; when he was a young adult he would start fights outside bars for the sake of fighting. He didn’t need to have a good reason to fight, only an opportunity. But he grew up. He works as system analyst for IBM now.

I never understood fighting because I was such an intellectual I didn’t get near any sort of emotional conflict.

The fact that fear runs counter to pursuing knowledge is my way of showing that what you are describing as ‘scholars’, ‘academics’, or ‘intellectuals’ are far from the actual thing.

This is my problem with this thread and this entire section in general.

Oh, then based on the symptoms you must not be the “actual thing” because what you’re apparently calling “straw men” behave stereotypically like you.

That’s OK. We can all dream. :harp:

Nice try: ignore the fact that your question was already loaded with an assumption.

And who did the assuming? You did. The “actual thing” would have been able to tell the difference.

That doesn’t change the fact that your question was based on a false premise, a false assumption.

And who did the assuming? You did. The “actual thing” would have given up by now for chasing a dead end.

Or would have seen the logical fallacy and had a nice chuckle.

It is clear that you are trying to get confrontational with me because you think I’m talking smack about their prayer lives.

I am not.

I am just pointing the obvious fact that plenty people here have constructed a strawman of what intellectuals and knowledge-seekers are.

There are plenty of strawmen out there, and I promise I do not count you as one of them.

Study is work. Work, diligence, and perseverance are all virtuous attributes. People acquire knowledge because it allows them to accomplish greater things.

You’re making things up again. Those are not the “virtues” listed by the Church, so we’re clearly being measured against the “LW Standard” – which means that I can’t be right because you’ve made it your business to show me as wrong.

If people were sloths in their study, you wouldn’t be here posting on CAF.

Give it up. (Maybe surrender to the Lord, even – but that’s one of them “spiritual” things so I guess yooou wouldn’t understaaand, right?) Not only are you anti-spiritual, you can’t have a meaningful debate on intellectual grounds without pulling in your personal feelings and asss-sumptions, if this thread is any indication. So I say you’re both anti-spiritual (because you wouldn’t want to be one of “us” anyway) and you are not cutting it as “actual thing” because you can’t isolate the logic of what is being said from your emotions and your bias.

If that makes you sad, then I’m sad too. :crying:

Or if you want, keep on posting. You’re not even overly intellectual in here but you help make the point of this thread – which is not anti-intellectual, but anti-bad attitude. You have provided this otherwise technical discussion with some good lab exercises. Maybe if you quit fighting and open yourself up to it, you just might learn something.

Have a Nice Day.

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

True.

I’m sorry you have had “anti-intellectual” experiences. :crying:

You are a prime example – the fact you don’t know it makes it obvious to everybody that it’s true. But in your case I’d make the term “academic” optional; more like some kid that just likes to fight. I had a coworker that grew up like that; when he was a young adult he would start fights outside bars for the sake of fighting. He didn’t need to have a good reason to fight, only an opportunity. But he grew up. He works as system analyst for IBM now.

I never understood fighting because I was such an intellectual I didn’t get near any sort of emotional conflict.

Oh, then based on the symptoms you must not be the “actual thing” because what you’re apparently calling “straw men” behave stereotypically like you.

That’s OK. We can all dream. :harp:

And who did the assuming? You did. The “actual thing” would have been able to tell the difference.

And who did the assuming? You did. The “actual thing” would have given up by now for chasing a dead end.

Or would have seen the logical fallacy and had a nice chuckle.

There are plenty of strawmen out there, and I promise I do not count you as one of them.

You’re making things up again. Those are not the “virtues” listed by the Church, so we’re clearly being measured against the “LW Standard” – which means that I can’t be right because you’ve made it your business to show me as wrong.



Give it up. (Maybe surrender to the Lord, even – but that’s one of them “spiritual” things so I guess yooou wouldn’t understaaand, right?) Not only are you anti-spiritual, you can’t have a meaningful debate on intellectual grounds without pulling in your personal feelings and asss-sumptions, if this thread is any indication. So I say you’re both anti-spiritual (because you wouldn’t want to be one of “us” anyway) and you are not cutting it as “actual thing” because you can’t isolate the logic of what is being said from your emotions and your bias.

If that makes you sad, then I’m sad too. :crying:

Or if you want, keep on posting. You’re not even overly intellectual in here but you help make the point of this thread – which is not anti-intellectual, but anti-bad attitude. You have provided this discussion with some good illustrations. Maybe if you quit fighting and open yourself up to it, you just might learn something.

Have a Nice Day.

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[Maristella]

Lady Love, since you have a natural inclination for spiritual reading, you might turn your reading into prayer with Lectio Divina. There is a whole reference thread here on Lectio:

What is Lectio Divina? How do I pray it?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=283559

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lady Love, since you have a natural inclination for spiritual reading, you might turn your reading into prayer with Lectio Divina. There is a whole reference thread here on Lectio:

What is Lectio Divina? How do I pray it?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=283559

That looks like a great thread, with instructions and everything!

 

[animalis]

To anyone who is reading this, I ask what saint has said that there studies have hindered him or her toward the ultimate goal of union with God? The old proponets of quietism would. And there fruit was a huge mass dismissal of the readings of S. John of the Cross and others in his company.

The good Cardinal Archbishop of Washington said in a recent Synod of Bishops that poor catechesis is the cause of poor marriage awareness, ect. This idea of study being a hinderance is suspect of an enemy. That idea is the cause of my personal american woes. And I would ask that it be considered to be dissolved in a rational way by a reasonable acceptance of the proposal I give by one course discussion and not by argument.

S. Theresa of Avila who graced the world with her heavenly teachings was a big advocate of books toward holiness.

I purpose to look at China. How can a country so forgien to the Church succeed in economic might? They devote themselves to study at school age. In that we could find righteousness. We should as a Church do the same with the bible and the Catechism and we will build among the ashes in a new evangelization.

 

[Lady_Love]

To anyone who is reading this, I ask what saint has said that there studies have hindered him or her toward the ultimate goal of union with God? The old proponets of quietism would. And there fruit was a huge mass dismissal of the readings of S. John of the Cross and others in his company.

I no way am I poo pooing study. I study tooooooo much. If my study is becoming a barrier to relationship, if I am using it as a means of avoiding my responsibilities, if I am becoming puffed up with knowledge and lacking in charity, if I am lacking in ‘good works’, then it may be a hindrance to holiness.

“What good is it to have all knowledge…if I have not love.” 1 corinthians 13

 

[InJesusItrust]

I wouldn’t say that study itself hinders growth, but that it leads to greater temptation. Scripture itself declares that knowledge puffs up. Some of the posters in this forum show this. They sometimes have so much knowledge that they act conceited. They will argue on and on in an uncharitable fashion to either justify to others or themselves that they are right. The man who chases knowledge exclusively has one big obstacle: admitting that their knowledge is misguided or incorrect.

Knowledge coupled with the virtues leads one closer to God. But exclusively searching for knowledge tends to lead one away from the Spirit of God. Knowledge is a means, not an end. I wish I could transmit what I am saying without sounding “anti-intellectual”, but just read the Scriptures to see the relation between knowledge and conceit. I have caught it in my own self too.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

To anyone who is reading this, I ask what saint has said that there studies have hindered him or her toward the ultimate goal of union with God? The old proponets of quietism would. And there fruit was a huge mass dismissal of the readings of S. John of the Cross and others in his company.

If we had no academics, our society and infrastructure would fall in a generation. Academics give us form and structure, and give us a way to make our very dreams come true. We didn’t get the Church to where she is by playing “telephone” for 2000 years.

Mysticism and contemplation makes us happy, gives us happy dreams, and makes us appreciate it greatly when dreams do come true. :heaven:

So both are approaches people use to seek their heaven on earth, according to their calling and their free will decisions. Some people do structure (aka academics), others warm-fuzzy (aka touchy-feely), and most do some combination even if they never thought about it that way.

Alan

I wouldn’t say that study itself hinders growth, but that it leads to greater temptation. Scripture itself declares that knowledge puffs up. Some of the posters in this forum show this. They sometimes have so much knowledge that they act conceited. They will argue on and on in an uncharitable fashion to either justify to others or themselves that they are right. The man who chases knowledge exclusively has one big obstacle: admitting that their knowledge is misguided or incorrect.

Knowledge coupled with the virtues leads one closer to God. But exclusively searching for knowledge tends to lead one away from the Spirit of God. Knowledge is a means, not an end. I wish I could transmit what I am saying without sounding “anti-intellectual”, but just read the Scriptures to see the relation between knowledge and conceit. I have caught it in my own self too.

 

[Sirach2]

Well said, InJesusITrust. Good balance, good discernment, and you transmitted it well!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You are a prime example – the fact you don’t know it makes it obvious to everybody that it’s true.

This pure, raw, unadulterated assertion at its worst. I expected better from you.

Oh, then based on the symptoms you must not be the “actual thing” because what you’re apparently calling “straw men” behave stereotypically like you.

I work my butt off nine hours a day trying to implement every shred of information I can get my hands on. (That includes what I learn about the faith.)

The pervasive strawman here is far from that.

But whatever dude, keep your fetish for raw assertions.

And who did the assuming? You did. The “actual thing” would have been able to tell the difference.

And who did the assuming? You did. The “actual thing” would have given up by now for chasing a dead end.

Or would have seen the logical fallacy and had a nice chuckle.

There are plenty of strawmen out there, and I promise I do not count you as one of them.

Now you are contradicting yourself.

You’re making things up again. Those are not the “virtues” listed by the Church, so we’re clearly being measured against the “LW Standard” – which means that I can’t be right because you’ve made it your business to show me as wrong.

I guess the fact that sloth is a cardinal sin is also made up too huh? Way to go Alan, way to go.

So I say you’re both anti-spiritual (because you wouldn’t want to be one of “us” anyway) and you are not cutting it as “actual thing” because you can’t isolate the logic of what is being said from your emotions and your bias.

If I am biased, I am biased based on experience, not emotions. I repeat. NOTHING you will say can change my past experiences. Whachoo got? A time machine?

Or if you want, keep on posting. You’re not even overly intellectual in here but you help make the point of this thread – which is not anti-intellectual, but anti-bad attitude.

The only bad attitude I see here is yours. I’m just here to point out the obvious fact that, again, people here have a grave misunderstanding of what today’s intellectuals are being driven to do.

A person who studies for the sake of studying (as per the OP’s premise) is either some poor hobo stealing books from the library or some rich dude heading in that direction.

 

[Sirach2]

When you learn to walk the talk, Lost W., instead of similating it with the iotas you have accumulated in your 23 long years of life, come back and visit some time.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

When you learn to walk the talk, Lost W., instead of similating it with the iotas you have accumulated in your 23 long years of life, come back and visit some time.

This thread is about applying knowledge and not only taking it in correct? That’s something I do on a daily basis. Don’t tell me how to do my job and act like you know what it means to ‘walk the talk’.

I suggest you review how you understand that figure of speech instead of just insulting people.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Now you are contradicting yourself.

Oh, don’t be so modest. You know when it comes to posting in a pseudo-intellectual, condescending way, you aren’t a straw man at all but the Real Thing. :yup:

If I am biased, I am biased based on experience, not emotions. I repeat. NOTHING you will say can change my past experiences. Whachoo got? A time machine?

I’m glad you have so much experience. As for time machine, yes. I cleaned out the diapers of people older than you, hundreds of times, in a time era you don’t remember because you weren’t there. I’ve felt and seen what “growing up” means, and hopefully one of these days you will know what I’m talking about.

The only bad attitude I see here is yours. I’m just here to point out the obvious fact that, again, people here have a grave misunderstanding of what today’s intellectuals are being driven to do.

Oh, yeah. The excruciating pain you felt from an anti-intellectual, eh? What did they do, tell you that you couldn’t take the square root of a negative number?

A person who studies for the sake of studying (as per the OP’s premise) is either some poor hobo stealing books from the library or some rich dude heading in that direction.

It very well could be.

This thread is about applying knowledge and not only taking it in correct? That’s something I do on a daily basis. Don’t tell me how to do my job and act like you know what it means to ‘walk the talk’.

I suggest you review how you understand that figure of speech instead of just insulting people.

Well, if you walk like you talk, then I will give you plenty of clearance because there is no predicting where your next step will take you. :whacky:

I’m curious to know in what field of study you’ve actually applied your awesome intellect. I have a master’s degree in electrical engineering. What technical credentials do you have, that qualify you to whine about “lesser” people?

Credentials in themselves won’t fix your posts, but I’m still interested. I’m fascinated by how an “intellectual” could actually behave like you are. I’ll give you this, you’re one of a kind.

Contemplative prayer – yeah right – haha.

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’m curious to know in what field of study you’ve actually applied your awesome intellect. I have a master’s degree in electrical engineering. What technical credentials do you have, that qualify you to whine about “lesser” people?

I’m a language major who writes marketing blogs. But then again, I’m sure you’re smart enough to know that identifying basic fallacies like strawman arguments are par for any course.

Credentials in themselves won’t fix your posts, but I’m still interested. I’m fascinated by how an “intellectual” could actually behave like you are. I’ll give you this, you’re one of a kind.

If you’re going to define an intellectual as some idiot who just likes to read for no particular reason, then you sir, put your local scarecrow manufacturer to shame.

 

[Sirach2]

:yawn:


Lost Wanderer:

May we define your intellectual degree as some idiot who -]just likes to read/-] just likes to post for no particular reason -

… other than to :slapfight:

If the shoe fits …

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m a language major who writes marketing blogs. But then again, I’m sure you’re smart enough to know that identifying basic fallacies like strawman arguments are par for any course.

If you’re going to define an intellectual as some idiot who just likes to read for no particular reason, then you sir, put your local scarecrow manufacturer to shame.

This is debate starting to resemble The Big Bang Theory.

Jim