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JoyToBeCatholic
Guest
I agree that the Bible is often twisted to meet others’ agendas. I have the utmost respect for the Bible, and I seek, earnestly, to read it without bias or personal preferrence. I don’t think it is all so simple that we can ever perfectly understand everything layed out in it. We are all challenged to meditate on it and study it throughout our lives. And living a godly life according to God Word is extremely challenging.
I can’t help that I see a different church layed out in Scripture. The CC tells me I shouldn’t draw my own conclusions from Scripture b/c I might get it wrong, yet I can get it wrong in evaluating the church too! Either way I have to use my own, poor, judgement, do I not?
In Christ
Scylla
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scylla
Guest
I end up trusting God or else it just falls back to me…
I have to trust God that the Bible is correct, I have to trust God that the Church is correct, I have to trust God that I understand Him correct.
If there is no unified truth then I can believe whatever I want as truth doesn’t matter.
Now my example is valid about covering the heads, who decides if it is just a practice (a good one), required, or cultural?
Who decides, if it is just a practice then the Church can certainly decide.
I am actually not so sure if it is just a will nilly practice and if I were a woman I would probably wear a veil as that would be more obedient. The Catholic Church sure doesn’t say that women shouldn’t and has only said that they should. Many Catholic women still wear veils.
Only a few anyways will go to heaven most are not seeking God’s will anyways so looking at the majority or what people do is irrevelant. We should each examine ourselves…
Is it being blind by seeking what the Councils have said, were people being blind when they listened to Peter at the Council of Jerusalem? They were listening, now if I just listen to any old Priest or Bishop or Pastor sure that is just blind obedience.
I need to seek the will of God and allow Him to change me, no matter how crummy people are, I am pretty crummy sometimes too.
God Bless
Scylla
I have to trust God that the Bible is correct, I have to trust God that the Church is correct, I have to trust God that I understand Him correct.
If there is no unified truth then I can believe whatever I want as truth doesn’t matter.
Now my example is valid about covering the heads, who decides if it is just a practice (a good one), required, or cultural?
Who decides, if it is just a practice then the Church can certainly decide.
I am actually not so sure if it is just a will nilly practice and if I were a woman I would probably wear a veil as that would be more obedient. The Catholic Church sure doesn’t say that women shouldn’t and has only said that they should. Many Catholic women still wear veils.
Only a few anyways will go to heaven most are not seeking God’s will anyways so looking at the majority or what people do is irrevelant. We should each examine ourselves…
Is it being blind by seeking what the Councils have said, were people being blind when they listened to Peter at the Council of Jerusalem? They were listening, now if I just listen to any old Priest or Bishop or Pastor sure that is just blind obedience.
I need to seek the will of God and allow Him to change me, no matter how crummy people are, I am pretty crummy sometimes too.
God Bless
Scylla
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kell0618
Guest
In regard to head coverings, the Church never threw that one out. One is free to wear a head covering, and if you feel that you should wear one to be respectful to the Blessed Sacrament and God by doing so, please do.
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JoyToBeCatholic
Guest
Thanks Kell.
Peace
I think God was the one who decided when He inspired Paul to write about it and said “this is what is done in all the churches of God”. In fact, he begins the chapter praising them for keeping his teachings and example. I think that is significant. He obviously wants us to keep this practice.
As far as I’m concerned it was thrown out by being silent. One council replaced another and now it is no longer a requirement. So, in my understanding, it is no longer a requirement to be obedient to God (in this particular circumstance).
Yes, the council of Jerusalem is part of Scripture, so that is fine, but I’m not sure I can accept the councils of the CC today the same as if it were from the Apostles’.
Me too:shrug: God help us…
Peace
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Praying to angels in Scripture: “Angels of the Lord, Bless the Lord” (Psalm 103:20)
Praying to saints in Scripture: “***Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will! Bless the LORD, all his works, in all places of his dominion.” ***(Psalm 103:21-22)
Futhermore, in the NT, St. John the Apostle describes for us a vision of heaven he was given by God, on Sunday while he was caught up in the Spirit. St. John conversed with angels and saints in heaven, didn’t he? So how could that be unScritpural? In other words, Scripture very SUFFICIENTLY teaches that it is a holy and pious practice to pray to angels and saint, invoking them directly to pray for and with us.
How very sufficient.
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JoyToBeCatholic
Guest
I’m not sure I would consider those verses of the psalms actual prayers (like petitions) to angels and saints. It also says “sun and moon bless the lord”. Is he praying to the sun and moon???Praying to angels in Scripture: “Angels of the Lord, Bless the Lord” (Psalm 103:20)
Praying to saints in Scripture: “***Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will! Bless the LORD, all his works, in all places of his dominion.” ***(Psalm 103:21-22)
Futhermore, in the NT, St. John the Apostle describes for us a vision of heaven he was given by God, on Sunday while he was caught up in the Spirit. St. John conversed with angels and saints in heaven, didn’t he? So how could that be unScritpural? In other words, Scripture very SUFFICIENTLY teaches that it is a holy and pious practice to pray to angels and saint, invoking them directly to pray for and with us.
How very sufficient.
In Revelations, St. John is “caught up in the Spirit”. He is not ordinarily conversing with angels and saints. This is a vision. Not a teaching to us to imitate what he is doing while he’s having a vision.
I don’t see scripture anywhere “teaching” us that it is a holy and pious practice to pray to anyone other than the Father.
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scylla
Guest
Vatican II never said anything about throwing out Headcoverings…
And the Bible was decided upon in a couple councils so you have to accept at least one other council after the council of Jerusalem. Just pick Rome, Hippo, Carthage, Florence, Trent, or the publishers who decided the put the King James Bible together. To stick to the Bible you first have to submit to its publishers.
Again regarding veils…
It has just become common practice these days not to wear them. Just like it has become common practice to have sex out of wedlock, dress indecently, masturbate and use God’s name in vain.
We all need to work on ourselves in becoming more holy and focusing on God and our obedience to His will. The teaching of Paul was oral before he wrote letters to praise them and also correct them on parts of his teaching. I struggle each day to follow God as I should.
May God bless you, and I will keep you in my prayers, now I have to go to work, hopefully I helped a little,
Scylla
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scylla
Guest
One quick thing before I go…
What is wrong with prayer, even if it is a prayer of love.
Is it wrong to love other people?
What is Catholic worship? It isn’t just prayer it involves Sacrifice.
So only as a Catholic we can pray and ask others to pray for us without bordering on worship as Catholic worship involves Sacrifice.
Is is wrong to love other people and is prayer a bad thing?
I will let others keep up the conversation, talk to you later.
In Christ
Scylla
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JoyToBeCatholic
Guest
you’re right, however, it didn’t make it a requirement either, which, in a sense, is permitting disobedience.
I trust that God preserved His Word. However, I don’t know that all of the teachings of the CC today is the “church” that God is preserving.
And VII couldn’t anticipate that not requiring veils was going to lead to the common practice of not wearing them? Did womens’ lib get to the magisterium? Thankfully the other heinous sins you mention haven’t…
God bless you too and thanks for prayers. You provided food for thought.
Peace,
J
JoyToBeCatholic
Guest
That psalm is a prayer of praise, not a petitioning prayer to the angels and saints. I’m all for praising God!
Why is it only Catholic worship that involves Sacrifice? Our entire lives are a sacrifice of praise to God.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Non-Catholic worship involves sacrifice too. (unless you are talking about the Eucharist as the perpetual “todah” sacrifice…)
Thanks Scylla
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dylanschrader
Guest
Even though it’s off-topic, concerning veils the prescription in Scripture is disciplinary and as such can be changed by the Church. For instance, Inter Insigniores, a declaration of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, says in section 4:
The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is thus free of error, but why would anyone believe that? I only believe it because the Church tells me it is true. As St. Augustine said, “I would not believe the Gospel if it weren’t for the Church.”
The Magisterium has the task of authentically interpreting Scripture and Tradition because of the authority entrusted to the apostles and their successors by Christ.
The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is thus free of error, but why would anyone believe that? I only believe it because the Church tells me it is true. As St. Augustine said, “I would not believe the Gospel if it weren’t for the Church.”
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I understand. But strictly speaking they are indeed prayers.
The word “pray” according to Webster is “humbly request.” The Psalmist does indeed humbly request of the saints and angels, in fact OF ALL CREATION, to bless the Lord. Thus, it is indeed a prayer, whether you would “consider” it one or not.
Yes. He is praying (humbling requesting) ALL THE WORKS OF THE LORD to Bless the Lord. That is most clear from the words of Sacred Scritpure. To contend otherwise is unconvincing.
Says who? When Peter and the others had a vison of Jesus transfigured, just because it was a vision didn’t mean it didn’t really happen. Thus, St. John’s vision does not connote that he didn’t really converse with angels and saints in heaven. It is clear that since St. John did converse with angels and saints, why do some consider it a sin to do so? You don’t have to. That’s not what Catholicism teaches. But Scritpure does indeed have explicit examples of holy men conversing with angels and saints. Therefore, if a Christian is “caught up in the Spirit” on the Lord’s Day, he can surely choose to converse with angels and saints in heaven, because if he does so he does so piously, fully in accord with Sacred Scripture.
Then you seem to misunderstand the word “pray.” If you check your King James Version of the Bible, you will see that people often PRAY to other people. Because the word PRAY means “humbly request.”
For instance…
Abraham PRAYS to his wife: “I pray thee, though art my sister” (Gen 12:13)
Abraham PRAYS to Lot: “… said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee”
According to the Protestant lexicon, Vine’s Expository of New Testament Words, the Biblical word translated “pray” is:Greek: erotao - “to ask,” is translated by the verb to pray in Luk14:18,19; 16:27; Jhn4:31; 14:16; 16:26; 17:9,15,20; in Act23:18, RV, “asked” (AV “prayed”); in 1Jo5:16, RV, “should make request” (AV “shall pray”).So when St. Paul humbly requests other brethren to pray for him, he is PRAYING to them.
Catholics still understand this Greek word in the same Biblical sense. Prayer, therefore, it not limited to the Father. The Bible clearly shows that prayer is a “humble request” and the Psalmist can and did humble request the angels and saints, in fact all the works of the Lord to bless the Lord.
Now, please find in Scripture where it says it is a sin to humbly request (PRAY) the angels in heaven or any other creatures of the Lord to bless the lord?
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VociMike
Guest
Not one person, one Church founded by Christ. Not the same thing at all.
If all people could “use the bible properly”, there would only be one set of “bible-Christian” beliefs, but there are not, not by a million miles. So what does that do to your assumption?
And all this talk of what is sufficient, that is just an attempt in most cases to avoid the teaching and the authority of the Church. What is sufficient is what is sufficient, and it varies for every individual. The thief on the cross had no bible, but he was given what was sufficient for him. All those early Christians had no bibles, but they were given what was sufficient for them. In that sense, there is nothing special about the “sufficiency” of the bible. Aren’t the four gospels really sufficient? Isn’t any one of the gospels really sufficient?
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Brendan
Guest
But Scripture itself say that there are sometimes when you DO have to go outside of Scripture.
When you have a disagreement with your brother. Suppose that this person thinks that contraception is OK.
So you try and correct him, but he still disagrees.
What does Scripture tell us to do? Where does it tell us to go? Back to itself??? NO It tells us to go the the Church, the Church that is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth
Which is another point, Scripture itself does not claim to be the Foundation of Truth, but rather a Church, THE CHUCH. And it it is a physical Church, because we are to go to it when we disagree with our brother.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Paul PRAYS to soldiers: “I pray you to take some meat…” (Acts 27:34).
Paul PRAYS to the Corinthians on behalf of Christ: “we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.” (2 Cor 5:20).
My goodness, it seems Christians are praying to people all the time in Scripture. Surely Scripture does NOT teach, as has been claimed by some, that we are to only pray to the Father.
Paul PRAYS to the Corinthians on behalf of Christ: “we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.” (2 Cor 5:20).
My goodness, it seems Christians are praying to people all the time in Scripture. Surely Scripture does NOT teach, as has been claimed by some, that we are to only pray to the Father.
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JoyToBeCatholic
Guest
But you only believe this b/c the church told you that. I don’t believe it is disciplinary and can be changed. Did God change His mind? It was a discipline that was inspired by the Holy Spirit. God does not change.
Psalm 119:130
I don’t believe the Scriptures were written for the Magisterium.
Jesus certainly gave authority to the Apostles, but He no where mentions it being passed on to their successors. Their miracles also attest to their authority. Furthermore, althouth Jesus does say He will preserve His “church”, He does not define the church nor does He say by what means He will preserve it (apostolic succession)
We do, however, have scriptures such as these:
You said:
I’ve seen the fruit of those who live according to the gospel. That’s pretty good proof
. God preserved His word. The men who compiled it were fallible, but God uses fallible men to do His will. It doesn’t mean everything those men ever did, believed or taught was inerrant too. It certainly doesn’t mean that the CC we have today developed without error over the years.Peace.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
During most of the Christian era, over 90% of the Church were illiterate and therefore could not read anything, let alone Scripture.
Also most did not enjoy the leisure time to peruse Scripture.
Also the Bible as such did not exist at all during the first 3 or 4 centuries AD, although individual books and written teachings did exist.
Also before the invention of the Gutenburg Press, bibles were costlier than gold and often chained to pulpits so that they would not be stolen.
So one must ask, sufficient to whom? To the rich? To the educated? To those with leisure time?
Does anyone believe that Jesus would really not provide teaching to the poor, the illiterate, the working folks?
If he would provide teaching to those folks, then what form(s) do you think it took over the centuries? Multiple choice:
a) the Bible
b) Sacred Art
c) Oral teaching
d) Songs and other forms of music
e) Plays
:doh2:
Also most did not enjoy the leisure time to peruse Scripture.
Also the Bible as such did not exist at all during the first 3 or 4 centuries AD, although individual books and written teachings did exist.
Also before the invention of the Gutenburg Press, bibles were costlier than gold and often chained to pulpits so that they would not be stolen.
So one must ask, sufficient to whom? To the rich? To the educated? To those with leisure time?
Does anyone believe that Jesus would really not provide teaching to the poor, the illiterate, the working folks?
If he would provide teaching to those folks, then what form(s) do you think it took over the centuries? Multiple choice:
a) the Bible
b) Sacred Art
c) Oral teaching
d) Songs and other forms of music
e) Plays
:doh2:
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Is the King James Bible (any one of the many different versions) a Catholic Bible?
You might try this for a good translation:
The Douay Rheims Challoner translation.
J
JoyToBeCatholic
Guest
Thanks for so many responses. I can’t address them all right now. Everyone is awake or off the bus now and I’ve got to go be a mother…
Read them all though and thinking about them…
Read them all though and thinking about them…
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