How to advise a sister?

[Marie5890]

I think many are missing the point that you are coming at this as a friend and that the spiritual works of mercy are involved.

I do get this. Most certainly.

What I also get, having had friends go thru the discernment process to find out if one has a vocation, is that there is a process.

Candidate, novice, postulant, etc.
Her friend has been in formation if I have read her previous post correctly, for a couple of years, which makes me think she very likely a postulant in her religious community.

Not only is her friend discerning whether or not she has a vocation, the community itself is discerning whether or not she is to be part of their community.

If there are concerns about modesty or any other concern, this should be made to the person who is over the postulant, i.e. the formation director.

The laity should not get involved in the discernment process that the religious community and the person in discernment are under-goiing. It’s counter-productive.

This incident, quite possibly, may be one of several indications she does not have a vocation to be a religious.

That is why it’s under the purvue of the formation director, and not someone amongst the laity.

 

[Marie5890]

Many modern day sisters definitely are not.
I have one personal experience where a superior of a
Convent thanked me for making her aware of this topic.
She belongs to this same community although in a different country.

Although they used to dress modestly they did not have the knowledge or
Awareness of this topic to impart this virtue to the people they serve.

And this particular superior eventually admitted that she was not having understanding
About the topic of modesty. She is 45 now and her community was formed only
In 60s and most members are less than age 50 I suppose.

Gone are the days in which nuns used to be having knowledge about
topics like modesty. These days a large number of them are poorly formed.

Then you know you should be addressing your concerns to her superiors, etc., of her community, and not her directly.

She is going thru the discernment process, right? Is she a postulant? has she taken temporary vows? where is she in the process?

You know that she has superiors, right, that she is to obey and to listen to for instruction. You should be addressing your concerns there, and not to her directly.

She is in formation, she is in the discernment process. Don’t under-cut those who have authority over her.

 

[abinjoy]

Well the article you posted shows that some orders are indeed well catechized so that’s good!

I think many are missing the point that you are coming at this as a friend and that the spiritual works of mercy are involved.

Then you know you should be addressing your concerns to her superiors, etc., of her community, and not her directly.

She is going thru the discernment process, right? Is she a postulant? has she taken temporary vows? where is she in the process?

You know that she has superiors, right, that she is to obey and to listen to for instruction. You should be addressing your concerns there, and not to her directly.

She is in formation, she is in the discernment process. Don’t under-cut those who have authority over her.

She has actually completed her first vows recently.
Completed her noviciate and entering into the next stage.
I know her very well for the past 2-3 years and I am certain she would
Have no qualms about listening to my views.

However as we are in different countries I can communicate through her only vis email and it makes things slightly complicated than a face to face chat

 

[Bonnie]

I have one personal experience where a superior of a
Convent thanked me for making her aware of this topic.

Abinjoy, you may be lacking some awareness of social conventions. When a busybody (see 2 Thessalonians 3:11) gives me unasked for “advice” about something I do differently than she does, I say “Thank you,” then proceed to ignore her advice. And try to avoid her if I can.

 

[abinjoy]

Also, in 2015 one of her formators (during her noviciate) did a yoga pose for LA times article about their community and I happened to see this on the internet.
At that time she had just graduated from a postulant to a novice and I contacted her’ postulancy director and she said I can directly contact her to tell that why I think yoga could be problematic .I know they are a very modern community with minimal restrictions compared to the old schools and normally I don’t think this group will have an issue with some one telling her about what I plan to tell her.

My only concern is how to convey the message in a charitable way with out offending her as I know I am sometimes very straight forward and my direct opinions end up provoking others which can cause more harm than good and also I don’t want to sound policing her.

 

[abinjoy]

Abinjoy, you may be lacking some awareness of social conventions. When a busybody (see 2 Thessalonians 3:11) gives me unasked for “advice” about something I do differently than she does, I say “Thank you,” then proceed to ignore her advice. And try to avoid her if I can.

Thanks Bonnie for the bible verse.I will memorize that today.

 

[Marie5890]

She has actually completed her first vows recently.
Completed her noviciate and entering into the next stage.
I know her very well for the past 2-3 years and I am certain she would
Have no qualms about listening to my views.

However as we are in different countries I can communicate through her only vis email and it makes things slightly complicated than a face to face chat

Since you know what community she is discerning, contact her superiors, not her, about your concerns.

Don’t under-cut her superiors authority.

 

[LightBound]

Also, in 2015 one of her formators (during her noviciate) did a yoga pose for LA times article about their community and I happened to see this on the internet.
At that time she had just graduated from a postulant to a novice and I contacted her’ postulancy director and she said I can directly contact her to tell that why I think yoga could be problematic .I know they are a very modern community with minimal restrictions compared to the old schools and normally I don’t think this group will have an issue with some one telling her about what I plan to tell her.

My only concern is how to convey the message in a charitable way with out offending her as I know I am sometimes very straight forward and my direct opinions end up provoking others which can cause more harm than good and also I don’t want to sound policing her.

If you insist on trying to “correct” her, then in all seriousness, you would do well to avoid quoting any “modesty statements” from the earlier part of the last century and what was likely translated out of a child’s local Ourem dialect at Fatima. Present it from a professional viewpoint about having candid photos that might be considered too casual in appearance on a social media site doesn’t really represent their religious order very well. If she doesn’t get what you are saying, try mentioning that she might be doing a disservice to the Sister in the picture whose blouse happened to be a bit revealing.

 

[Marie5890]

Also, in 2015 one of her formators (during her noviciate) did a yoga pose for LA times article about their community and I happened to see this on the internet.
At that time she had just graduated from a postulant to a novice and I contacted her’ postulancy director and she said I can directly contact her to tell that why I think yoga could be problematic .I know they are a very modern community with minimal restrictions compared to the old schools and normally I don’t think this group will have an issue with some one telling her about what I plan to tell her.

My only concern is how to convey the message in a charitable way with out offending her as I know I am sometimes very straight forward and my direct opinions end up provoking others which can cause more harm than good and also I don’t want to sound policing her.

I think you mentioned in a previous post, however, that she has a new formations’ director?
You should be doing what she advices, not a previous director.

 

[Bonnie]

Is Abinjoy trolling us or is she really that self-absorbed & clueless?

 

[LightBound]

Is Abinjoy trolling us or is she really that self-absorbed & clueless?

I don’t know, but I wonder is she has spoken with her own spiritual director about this near obsession of correcting others and stewing over hypothetical “what-ifs” is she doesn’t? Sounds like scruples and obsessive/compulsive kind of thoughts are really disturbing her.

 

[Marie5890]

Is Abinjoy trolling us or is she really that self-absorbed & clueless?

No, I don’t think she is trolling. I think she is referring to a community known as “Verbum Dei Missionaries”, and if I have read her posts correctly, she is not in the USA, but perhaps Europe somewhere? Not sure.

I think she is genuine in her concern, but just out of the proper authority channels in how to deal with her concerns.

 

[Marie5890]

I wonder is she has spoken with her own spiritual director about this.

I do agree with this. It would be wise for her to discuss this with her own spiritual director, rather than taking it to the internet in general, or CAF in particular.

 

[Allegra]

If I saw a picture posted that I thought the person in the picture would not want on the internet, I would probably say something to the person who posted it. For example, my husband once posted on facebook a photo that he took during a family vacation that I asked him to take down. I gave him a sort of hard time about it. We were sitting on a pontoon boat and I was in my wet swimming suit. He was standing over us when he took the picture and the way I was sitting, it showed a little more of myself than I would like posted on the internet.

If you genuinely feel the subject of the photograph was accidentally revealing more than she intended in the photo, then it might be reasonable to ask if that photo was really proper to post on the internet. That does NOT require a lecture in how you think women should dress. You’ve posted about the “immodestly” of these sisters before and I really think you should mind your own business. It might be hard for you to imagine, but most men do not leer at postulants doing yoga poses, even if they are in yoga pants. They understand that yoga attire is appropriate for the activity they were doing, just as a bathing suit is appropriate for swimming on a pontoon boat. The website editor would do well to be particularly mindful when posting images of other women’s bodies online, but there is nothing wrong with what the women are wearing. This obsession isn’t healthy for you. I’m really not sure if continued interaction with this religious community is healthy for you either.

 

[abinjoy]

If I saw a picture posted that I thought the person in the picture would not want on the internet, I would probably say something to the person who posted it. For example, my husband once posted on facebook a photo that he took during a family vacation that I asked him to take down. I gave him a sort of hard time about it. We were sitting on a pontoon boat and I was in my wet swimming suit. He was standing over us when he took the picture and the way I was sitting, it showed a little more of myself than I would like posted on the internet.

If you genuinely feel the subject of the photograph was accidentally revealing more than she intended in the photo, then it might be reasonable to ask if that photo was really proper to post on the internet. That does NOT require a lecture in how you think women should dress. You’ve posted about the “immodestly” of these sisters before and I really think you should mind your own business. It might be hard for you to imagine, but most men do not leer at postulants doing yoga poses, even if they are in yoga pants. They understand that yoga attire is appropriate for the activity they were doing, just as a bathing suit is appropriate for swimming on a pontoon boat. The website editor would do well to be particularly mindful when posting images of other women’s bodies online, but there is nothing wrong with what the women are wearing. This obsession isn’t healthy for you. I’m really not sure if continued interaction with this religious community is healthy for you either.

Thanks Allegra for your feedback.Much appreciated.
You have a great memory as well

 

[MaryT777]

Many modern day sisters definitely are not.
I have one personal experience where a superior of a
Convent thanked me for making her aware of this topic.
She belongs to this same community although in a different country.

Although they used to dress modestly they did not have the knowledge or
Awareness of this topic to impart this virtue to the people they serve.

And this particular superior eventually admitted that she was not having understanding
About the topic of modesty. She is 45 now and her community was formed only
In 60s and most members are less than age 50 I suppose.

Gone are the days in which nuns used to be having knowledge about
topics likeNew International Version
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? modesty. These days a large number of them are poorly formed.

With a lack of vocations currently in many areas I think we need to encourage our sisters and not be the modesty police. As noted it’s not your place or responsibility.

It’s a pretty blanket negative statement to say " a large number of them are poorly formed." How sad that’s the view you have. I appreciate the TWO we have in our Community. They work hard and I would be the last to address their behavior .

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”

Luke 6:41

 

[abinjoy]

With a lack of vocations currently in many areas I think we need to encourage our sisters and not be the modesty police. As noted it’s not your place or responsibility.

It’s a pretty blanket negative statement to say " a large number of them are poorly formed." How sad that’s the view you have. I appreciate the TWO we have in our Community. They work hard and I would be the last to address their behavior .

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”

Luke 6:41

Can lack of vocations mean removing the requirement of chastity for priest and nuns?

 

[Allegra]

Can lack of vocations mean removing the requirement of chastity for priest and nuns?

You went from saying that this sister carelessly let a small amount of cleavage show to accusing her of being unchaste rather quickly.

 

[johnnyc176]

I do get this. Most certainly.

What I also get, having had friends go thru the discernment process to find out if one has a vocation, is that there is a process.

Candidate, novice, postulant, etc.
Her friend has been in formation if I have read her previous post correctly, for a couple of years, which makes me think she very likely a postulant in her religious community.

Not only is her friend discerning whether or not she has a vocation, the community itself is discerning whether or not she is to be part of their community.

If there are concerns about modesty or any other concern, this should be made to the person who is over the postulant, i.e. the formation director.

The laity should not get involved in the discernment process that the religious community and the person in discernment are under-goiing. It’s counter-productive.

This incident, quite possibly, may be one of several indications she does not have a vocation to be a religious.

That is why it’s under the purvue of the formation director, and not someone amongst the laity.

Replace modesty in dress with missing Mass on Sunday. If your friend is discerning and you don’t see them at Mass wouldn’t you approach them to see what was up? Never mind for the discernment process you would be concerned for their souls because willfully missing Mass is a mortal sin right? Abinjoy is getting the flak because modesty in dress has Traditional values connotations. Just look at the comments drifting even to the point of being called a troll.

At least you are in agreement that abinjoy can and should contact the director over such matters. But there is also the concern of a being friend to consider.

 

[abinjoy]

You went from saying that this sister carelessly let a small amount of cleavage show to accusing her of being unchaste rather quickly.

I never accused this particular sister of unchaste.
My comment was in response to the previous poster’s remark on lack of vocations.

My only intent is to make my friend conscious of the need for her to be careful about what to post in social media and not.