How to answer questions about the sex scandal?

[MarcoPolo]

But if the Roman Catholic religion is everything that you’re all telling me it is, why is it happening at all? Why is your church covering it up? Why are Roman Catholics not furious about this?

You are mistaken…Catholics are furious about this. However, trying to suggest the horrible sins of individuals is evidence that the Catholic Church is not Christ’s Church (as you have done) is also something against which we must defend.

I wish you would respond to the antitupos issue in the other thread…do you believe in the necessity of Baptism now?

 

[brosam]

Believe me, this is not the usual practice either of priests or of the Church.

But if what you all are telling me about your church is true, why is it happening at all? Why is your church covering it up? Why aren’t Roman Catholics demanding that your leaders be removed in favor of those who will act to protect the children?

We consider such thing to be Mortal Sins, and we know that any priests who do not repent of this behaviour will certainly go to Hell. There is, after all, no doubt that they knew it was wrong, and they were the adults in the situation - there was nothing “coerced” about their behaviour.

But by doing nothing, you and your church are complicit in their crimes. Do you really think you and your leaders won’t face a similar fate for standing by while it happens and, in some cases, actually enabling it to happen?

 

[ddeluna]

Recently, my neighbor across the street, an evangelical, and a close family friend told me something I found very interesting.

He said that the ratio of sex abuse is basically the same for teachers (all teachers of all kinds of schools) as it is for all Protestant clergy (of all non-Catholic denoms) as it is for all Catholic clergy.

In fact, it isn’t surprising. People are people - Catholic, Baptist, short, tall, fat, ugly, blonde. No one group is more prone to sin than any other.

Another poster put it well - people, sinners did this, not the Church, who continues to guide, nourish, discipline us and offer a sacramental life - even to those particular sinners.

The Church is us - the body of Chirst - which are, in a word, sinners. Satan does his best work in the Church. Sinners in the Church have done far worse to scandalize the Church in the past 2,000 years than the recent sex scandals (NOT to minimize this scandal. It breaks my heart). Still, praise God, He continues to pour out His grace on the Church and continues to sustain it. His truth, His light continues today to illuminate our path to Heaven thru the Church, regardless what some sinners in His Church are doing.

 

[brosam]

You are mistaken…Catholics are furious about this.

I can tell. Every night when I turn on the news, there’s a story about all of the Roman Catholics who are protesting and about how the Roman Catholic leaders complicit in the crimes are being removed, not to mention how the Roman Catholic church is suspending the priests and cooperating with the police, instead of just sending the priest to another church, without bothering to tell the members what’s coming their way.

do you believe in the necessity of Baptism now?

No. I still hold to the Biblical teaching.

 

[Black_Knight]

OK. Show me where it’s happening in my church.

Sorry, but you asked… http://stopbaptistpredators.org/images/mm_spacer.gif
StopBaptistPredators.org

 

[ddeluna]

A Protestant pastor in our town succumbed to sexual sin with a parishioners daughter. It was reported in the local paper. He was arrested, out on bail, disgraced, etc.

This poor Protestant pastor is just a lover of the Lord, got ordained, went out on his own, mortgaged his house (I imagine) bought a property and started his own little church. More than 95% of all Protestant churches you count across America start just this way. He has no bishop to report to, no authority above him. Paperwork? Well, with such a very small church, likely he and his wife run it, so maybe there’s good paperwork, maybe not. They haven’t much, so there’s no money to go after in a lawsuit, so no attorney will come chasing after the victim’s family. There’s no news story here, cuz there’s no money here, no monolithic institution who’s name is recognized around the world, thus getting newspaper reader’s and viewers attention.

On the other hand:
Our diocese keeps records of everything - which priest was assigned where, when, why, by who. Financial records from every parish, the bishop’s the owner of the property of all our parishes, etc. It’s like this for most dioceses across the U.S. We have the clearest organizational hierarchy in all the Christian world. The attorney’s are able to follow a paper trail all the way to the bishop. There’s money in the deal for the attorneys, so they chase the victims families. The amounts are staggeringly sufficient to make headlines and stay there.

I never again saw any follow-up story about this pastor’s incident. I expect I never will.

Oh, and by the way, the original story was in the LOCAL section, section 2 of the paper, not on the front page or even in the first section.

Just to be clear, I am in no way minimizing the scandal. In fact, I’m not even speaking to the scandal in this post. Only illuminating the real reasons why it sometimes “feels like” our clergy, and by extension, our Church, are extra sinful.

 

[Mike_Brick]

I’ve wondered about this, with the assumption that percentages of pedophile clergy is less than non-clergy. But just assumption, never have seen any studies or demographics. Do you know of any supporting links? Thanks.

Light Seeker, and other posters: We need to be careful in our use of terms. The vast majority of sexual abuse in the Church has been homosexual contact with young people, way older than that required to consider the offender a pedophile. The term pedophile seems to have come to mean sexual attraction to any child, (under 16-18), which is an incorrect use of the term. It is a sexual attraction to a prepubsecent child. So the Church has experienced very few acts of pedophilia, but it has had sexual abuse of children.

The reason I raise this issue, is the treatment for the offender is greatly different for sexual abusers of young people, compared to the treatment for true pedophiles. Simply put there can be hope for the abusers, but very little that can be done for actual pedophiles.

Some bishops failed to make the distinction, and relied on secular experts who led them to believe the treatment could be common for both types of offenders, and they could be redeemed.

I have become cynical over my 33 years in law enforcement, but have never believed any bishop moved a priest whom he feared would likely offend again, with maybe one exception. That’s plain stupid, and we know regardless what some might think of them, bishops are not stupid men. But many were ignorant of what they were dealing with, then relied on bad advice from “experts”, and terrible mistakes were made.

Peace to All
Mike

 

[MarcoPolo]

I can tell. Every night when I turn on the news, there’s a story about all of the Roman Catholics who are protesting and about how the Roman Catholic leaders complicit in the crimes are being removed, not to mention how the Roman Catholic church is suspending the priests and cooperating with the police, instead of just sending the priest to another church, without bothering to tell the members what’s coming their way.

Oh! My mistake…you only see what you want to see! Why didn’t you say so!! This is why someone created a prayer thread for you over here. I for one prayed for you as well as myself and others that ill-will not pollute our capacity to think and love.

I still hold to the Biblical teaching.

Good. Then you agree with the Catholic Church.

 

[mercygate]

OK. Show me where it’s happening in my church.

We could provide links to insurance statistics from the Protestant world. Sexual scandals, such as the recent mess surrounding the president of the American Association of Evangelicals, indicate that this problem is not limited to the Catholic Church. I do not see ANYBODY running to the New York Times when these things come to the attention of leadership.

One of the reasons you hear less about it among Protestants is that Protestant churches are less centralized and usually have shallower pockets. You’re not likely to collect much by suing the First Evangelical Apostolic Church of Holiness with a membership of 41 souls.

I hope that if you were to burn the church down upon discovering scandal, you would wait until nobody was inside, even the accused.

 

[jmcrae]

OK. Show me where it’s happening in my church.

If you want to find out whether it is happening in your congregation, look for areas of secrecy - closed doors, times when people disappear for no apparent reason and then reappear - that sort of thing. Look for kids who are afraid of a particular Sunday School teacher or member of clergy - do some of the little girls cry when they have to go out for Sunday School with certain teachers? Do some of the kids seem to know more about sex than they should at that age (more so than the rest of their peer group)?

Listen to the caretaking staff - what sort of weird things are they finding left behind in the oddest places?

Have certain leading families simply disappeared without saying good-bye? Have any members of clergy suddenly needed to go on vacation, from which they never returned, because a “new (but unspecified) opportunity” suddenly sprang up for them?

These are just some of the signals that your congregation may have been affected by a child molester. Of course, there are innocent reasons for these things to have occurred, as well - but these are the sorts of things that happen when someone has been behaving badly, as well.

 

[brosam]

We could provide links to insurance statistics from the Protestant world. Sexual scandals, such as the recent mess surrounding the president of the American Association of Evangelicals, indicate that this problem is not limited to the Catholic Church. I do not see ANYBODY running to the New York Times when these things come to the attention of leadership.

One of the reasons you hear less about it among Protestants is that Protestant churches are less centralized and usually have shallower pockets. You’re not likely to collect much by suing the First Evangelical Apostolic Church of Holiness with a membership of 41 souls.

I hope that if you were to burn the church down upon discovering scandal, you would wait until nobody was inside, even the accused.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Why was it covered up?

When the church claims to be infallible in all matters of doctrine and practice, and you claim that your leader speaks directly on behalf of Christ, then yes, it is perfectly reasonable to consider this when evaluating the truth of your church.

The Church does not claim to be infallible in practice only on matters of faith and morals. Nor does the Pope always speak with infallibility - only certain things are protected by the Holy Spirit. I am sure someone else will take the time to more fully correct your mistatements.
Finally–the truth is the truth and it is not changed simply because you, me or a priest fails to live up to it.

Peace,
Mark in Oregon

 

[jmcrae]

Why? If the Roman Catholic church is allowed to burn heretics, why shouldn’t we be allowed to burn child molestors?

The Catholic Church is not and never has been allowed to burn heretics. Governments of the Middle Ages used burning at the stake as a form of the death penalty for all capital crimes, including heresy against the Church.

Individuals have never been allowed to mete out the death penalty on their own authority, of course!

 

[mercygate]

If you want to find out whether it is happening in your congregation, look for areas of secrecy - closed doors, times when people disappear for no apparent reason and then reappear - that sort of thing. Look for kids who are afraid of a particular Sunday School teacher or member of clergy - do some of the little girls cry when they have to go out for Sunday School with certain teachers? Do some of the kids seem to know more about sex than they should at that age (more so than the rest of their peer group)?

Listen to the caretaking staff - what sort of weird things are they finding left behind in the oddest places?

Have certain leading families simply disappeared without saying good-bye? Have any members of clergy suddenly needed to go on vacation, from which they never returned, because a “new (but unspecified) opportunity” suddenly sprang up for them?

These are just some of the signals that your congregation may have been affected by a child molester. Of course, there are innocent reasons for these things to have occurred, as well - but these are the sorts of things that happen when someone has been behaving badly, as well.

One more: abrupt changes in the collection plate when a leadership person comes or goes. The second biggest scandal – and often (really OFTEN) linked – is financial abuse to feed/cover the behavior.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Are you serious? Why can a Roman Catholic not call the police when a priest molests a child?

Why would you think this? Would you cite one document that says a Catholic cannot call the police?

Let’s say that this is true. Well where does most child abuse occur? In the home, by someone know and trusted.

The question still remains, why are your priests molesting little children at all? Why is your church covering it up at all?

Isn’t the question why is anyone molesting children? You think this is limited to a few Catholic priests? Why do fathers molest there children? Why do teachers molest their students? Why do uncles molest there nieces and nephews? Because they are sick. Preists are human like everyone else and unfortunately some sick ones made it through the process–just like they do in every where else.
The Church covered it up for the same reasons–mom covers for dad or the family covers for uncle Bob or the school district covers up for teacher Bill–fear and shame. Doesn’t make it right and one would have hoped the Church leaders would have been stronger–but then I am sure Peter wished he were stronger when he denied Christ.

None on this speaks against the truth of the Churches teachings–it speaks to the weakness and sinfulness of all men, but not to Christs ability to protect his truth.

Peace,
Mark in Oregon

 

[TexRose]

Dh and I just attended an ethics workshop for surrounding parishes. Anyone who is to work around children such as CCD or anything else that children would be around has to take these classes. Yes even priests have to take these classes. Let me assure you that something is being done about it. You cannot say that nothing is being done. If a child complains or if we see something going on, we are required to report it not only to our priest, our DRE, but also to CPS. We also have to follow up and make sure that it is being investigated.

There are sickos everywhere, unfortunately.

 

[mesquite_magic]

Dh and I just attended an ethics workshop for surrounding parishes. Anyone who is to work around children such as CCD or anything else that children would be around has to take these classes. Yes even priests have to take these classes. Let me assure you that something is being done about it. You cannot say that nothing is being done. If a child complains or if we see something going on, we are required to report it not only to our priest, our DRE, but also to CPS. We also have to follow up and make sure that it is being investigated.

There are sickos everywhere, unfortunately.

Our parish has gone so far as to say all those working with or around children must be fingerprinted, as well as doing the above quoted things.

Just last year, three priests were arrested for past crimes, not recent ones. The Bishop has been privately and publicly meeting with victims for the last couple of years. He’s new. The Bishop in charge 20 - 30 years ago, when all this began, died some time ago. The Bishop who filled his shoes, died this year. Bishop K. was brought in to help Bishop M. deal with all of this.

The Church in my area, is paying millions of dollars in lawsuits. At this point they are trying to make amends. Does that absolve them of the responsiblity? No. But it does mean they are working on dealing with the issue.

There was a huge cover-up. Unfortunately many of the men involved, both Bishop and Priest have since died. Remember, most of this whole cover-up issue is at least 20 years old, not recent. So who pays? Certainly not the original offenders? Do the victims deserve compensation? Definately. How do we do that? I can’t think of anything more than what the Church is already doing. The new Bishops can not go back to the past and change things. They can only try their best to help the victims heal, now.

Kim

 

[Riley259]

Light Seeker, and other posters: We need to be careful in our use of terms. The vast majority of sexual abuse in the Church has been homosexual contact with young people, way older than that required to consider the offender a pedophile. The term pedophile seems to have come to mean sexual attraction to any child, (under 16-18), which is an incorrect use of the term. It is a sexual attraction to a prepubsecent child. So the Church has experienced very few acts of pedophilia, but it has had sexual abuse of children.

The reason I raise this issue, is the treatment for the offender is greatly different for sexual abusers of young people, compared to the treatment for true pedophiles. Simply put there can be hope for the abusers, but very little that can be done for actual pedophiles.

Some bishops failed to make the distinction, and relied on secular experts who led them to believe the treatment could be common for both types of offenders, and they could be redeemed.

I have become cynical over my 33 years in law enforcement, but have never believed any bishop moved a priest whom he feared would likely offend again, with maybe one exception. That’s plain stupid, and we know regardless what some might think of them, bishops are not stupid men. But many were ignorant of what they were dealing with, then relied on bad advice from “experts”, and terrible mistakes were made.

Peace to All
Mike

Good summation of the priest scandal. Thanks.

 

[TexRose]

Our parish has gone so far as to say all those working with or around children must be fingerprinted, as well as doing the above quoted things.
Kim

I wanted to add that a background check is also done on everyone that will be working with children, whether it’s a paid employee or someone merely volunteering.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

" Texas Roofer:

Additionally your friend should know that these actions occur less in Priests than in general population meaning a child is actually safer if randomly assigned to a Priest than if randomly assigned to a man select from the public.

I’ve wondered about this, with the assumption that percentages of pedophile clergy is less than non-clergy. But just assumption, never have seen any studies or demographics. Do you know of any supporting links? Thanks.

The official investigation lists 4% see page 27 at usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/index.htm I have not seen that number refuted. Now most compare that to US government reports from US schools which are very high. So high I choose not to use it as my source. Instead I would cite this reference. * Based on a literature review of 23 studies, Goldman & Padayachi found that the prevalence of child sexual abuse varied between 7-62% for girls and 4-30% for boys.- Juliette D. G. Goldman and Usha, K. Padayachi, “Some Methodological Problems in Estimating Incidence and Prevalence in Child Sexual Abuse Research”. Journal of Sex Research, Nov, 2000. *

So as you can see the Catholic scandal is actually equal to the lowest estimate of the lowest group. Which means the overall Catholic abuse rate is below the overall rate found in the studies .