How to answer questions about the sex scandal?

[Texas_Roofer]

Originally Posted by Texas Roofer
One thing commonly misunderstood is the church has no other authority to turn to. So when a man acted that way the church could not call the police or imprison him. They cannot testify against this man. All they can do is separate and counsel which they did.

Originally Posted by Brosam
Are you serious? Why can a Roman Catholic not call the police when a priest molests a child?

Originally Posted by jmcrae
They can and should call the police. I think he just meant that the Bishop is not a policeman, and if the victims are not willing to testify against the priest or have him arrested, there is not much that the Bishop can do about it, because hearsay testimony is not allowed in court.*

Brosam if you are able to read this notice the quote did not say a “Roman Catholic” it said “the church”.

Jmcrae I made no reference to the Bishop as a policeman nor should I have.

All ordained personnel are under a vow of silence regarding counseling and confessions. The legal profession calls this “privileged speech” . So you would need an unethical ordained person working with an unethical group of legal professional just to go through the trial. Then you need another unethical legal group in control of the appeals process or it will be tossed. Maybe you could attend the RCIA session when they teach on the seal of confession?

 

[jmcrae]

All ordained personnel are under a vow of silence regarding counseling and confessions. The legal profession calls this “privileged speech” . So you would need an unethical ordained person working with an unethical group of legal professional just to go through the trial. Then you need another unethical legal group in control of the appeals process or it will be tossed. Maybe you could attend the RCIA session when they teach on the seal of confession?

Oh, I thought you were talking about the kids who were abused complaining to the Bishops, and then the Bishops didn’t send the priests to jail; they just fired them or transferred them to non-pastoral assignments.

What they ought to have done was go straight to the police, since it was a police matter. The police could then have called the Bishop to let him know that that priest would no longer be reporting in for work.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Oh, I thought you were talking about the kids who were abused complaining to the Bishops, and then the Bishops didn’t send the priests to jail; they just fired them or transferred them to non-pastoral assignments.

What they ought to have done was go straight to the police, since it was a police matter. The police could then have called the Bishop to let him know that that priest would no longer be reporting in for work.

How many people do you know arrested via church counseling and confession?

It is not an issue of whether jail was appropriate; the issue is the Church cannot put them there.

 

[Exalt]

Go watch the documentary Deliver Us From Evil if you want an honest look at the scandal. It looks at one particular priest, Oliver O’Grady, his 25 (possibly more) victims, and the Bishops who moved him from parish to parish, fully aware of the acts he had committed.

If your worried about the film being anti-Catholic, know that it is the number four highest rated movie of all time according to Rottentomatoes.com, with 100% of reviewers giving it a generally positive review, including at least one Catholic movie review website.

]
I have become cynical over my 33 years in law enforcement, but have never believed any bishop moved a priest whom he feared would likely offend again, with maybe one exception. That’s plain stupid, and we know regardless what some might think of them, bishops are not stupid men. But many were ignorant of what they were dealing with, then relied on bad advice from “experts”, and terrible mistakes were made.

A priest under a given bishop’s jurisdiction molests a child. That’s a criminal act. They knew that. That’s something you go to jail for. And what do they do? Send them off to therapy. And then put them back in a parish.

It’s wrong. It’s horrible. And it goes against all common sense. Here have a predator. Someone with a file. With a history of molestation. And some therapist tells you he’s probably not going to molest someone else - and you take the chance of putting him back in a parish. You endanger the wellbeing of the children at that parish. The Bishops knew better.

What the Bishops did was criminal. And they ought to go to jail for it.

 

[mercygate]

Go watch the documentary Deliver Us From Evil if you want an honest look at the scandal. It looks at one particular priest, Oliver O’Grady, his 25 (possibly more) victims, and the Bishops who moved him from parish to parish, fully aware of the acts he had committed.

If your worried about the film being anti-Catholic, know that it is the number four highest rated movie of all time according to Rottentomatoes.com, with 100% of reviewers giving it a generally positive review, including at least one Catholic movie review website.

A priest under a given bishop’s jurisdiction molests a child. That’s a criminal act. They knew that. That’s something you go to jail for. And what do they do? Send them off to therapy. And then put them back in a parish.

It’s wrong. It’s horrible. And it goes against all common sense. Here have a predator. Someone with a file. With a history of molestation. And some therapist tells you he’s probably not going to molest someone else - and you take the chance of putting him back in a parish. You endanger the wellbeing of the children at that parish. The Bishops knew better.

What the Bishops did was criminal. And they ought to go to jail for it.

This is a brilliant exhibit of 20/20 hindsight. At the time these men were sent for therapy, it was believed that therapy would be effective. It wasn’t and, apparently, nothing has come along that promises to be any more effective. Maybe locking them up for good makes sense today, but it takes a while for the verdict to emerge. The world had a lot of confidence in psychotherapy 40, 30, 25 years ago.

 

[jmcrae]

How many people do you know arrested via church counseling and confession?

It is not an issue of whether jail was appropriate; the issue is the Church cannot put them there.

We agree, then.

 

[jmcrae]

A priest under a given bishop’s jurisdiction molests a child. That’s a criminal act.

That’s right.

Joe Blow the Eskimo, who works at the Quickie Mart under the jurisdiction of the manager, holds up the gas station next door with a gun and robs it. That’s a criminal act.

They knew that.

Sure, they did. Joe’s manager knows that what he did was a criminal act, too.

That’s something you go to jail for. And what do they do? Send them off to therapy. And then put them back in a parish.

The people at the gas station next door complain to Joe’s manager that he robbed them. Joe’s manager fires him, and he gets a job at a Mac’s across town. The people at the gas station complain because Joe’s manager didn’t put handcuffs on him and take him away to jail.

It’s wrong. It’s horrible. And it goes against all common sense.

And the victims contacted the wrong people. They should have contacted the police. The Bishop has no authority to arrest anyone or to put him in jail. He is not employed by the government in any capacity whatsoever. All he is, is the priest’s boss. His choices are: rehabilitate the priest and re-employ him in another capacity, or, fire him and take the chance that he will be re-employed by another Bishop in a difference Diocese.

 

[mesquite_magic]

That’s right.

Joe Blow the Eskimo, who works at the Quickie Mart under the jurisdiction of the manager, holds up the gas station next door with a gun and robs it. That’s a criminal act.

Sure, they did. Joe’s manager knows that what he did was a criminal act, too.

The people at the gas station next door complain to Joe’s manager that he robbed them. Joe’s manager fires him, and he gets a job at a Mac’s across town. The people at the gas station complain because Joe’s manager didn’t put handcuffs on him and take him away to jail.

And the victims contacted the wrong people. They should have contacted the police. The Bishop has no authority to arrest anyone or to put him in jail. He is not employed by the government in any capacity whatsoever. All he is, is the priest’s boss. His choices are: rehabilitate the priest and re-employ him in another capacity, or, fire him and take the chance that he will be re-employed by another Bishop in a difference Diocese.

No, the Bishops couldn’t put handcuffs on the Priest, but they could have gotten the police involved. As a daycare provider, I must, BY LAW, go to the police if I suspect any kind of abuse in ANY child, not just my daycare kids. I will go to jail if it’s proven that I had information and didn’t follow through.

I’m not talking about what is said in confession. I’m talking about a child going to a teacher, another Priest, anyone, and telling that they were abused. Is it really so strange that people took their complaints to the Bishops rather than the police? We’re talking about Catholics here. People who have been taught to take what they precieve to be a Faith issue, to their priest or his superior. Remember, this was back in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s, before child molestation became news-worthy. People didn’t know what to do with information like this back then.

What the Bishops did back then was wrong. Some of them should be sitting in jail with the child molesters. On the other hand, today’s Bishops are trying to make things right. The ones in my town are working hard to right the wrongs of their predicessors.

Kim

 

[Texas_Roofer]

No, the Bishops couldn’t put handcuffs on the Priest, but they could have gotten the police involved. As a daycare provider, I must, BY LAW, go to the police if I suspect any kind of abuse in ANY child, not just my daycare kids. I will go to jail if it’s proven that I had information and didn’t follow through.

I’m not talking about what is said in confession. I’m talking about a child going to a teacher, another Priest, anyone, and telling that they were abused. Is it really so strange that people took their complaints to the Bishops rather than the police? We’re talking about Catholics here. People who have been taught to take what they precieve to be a Faith issue, to their priest or his superior. Remember, this was back in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s, before child molestation became news-worthy. People didn’t know what to do with information like this back then.

What the Bishops did back then was wrong. Some of them should be sitting in jail with the child molesters. On the other hand, today’s Bishops are trying to make things right. The ones in my town are working hard to right the wrongs of their predicessors.

Kim

I have raised a few children many go through a stag of telling some wild stories. Like seeing the Grinch, air plane crashes, it seems a lot of animal related stories, etc. Should I have called the police to say our 4 year old crushed is airplane, he says a real plane not a toy? Or the Grinch is roaming our local woods? It would seem unlikely the Bishop or parent would assume the child correct. Now remember if the Bishop counsels the priest he cannot call the police. I know there were some cases when the Priest had previous reports against him and the Bishop knew which is the injustice, but is that the typical case?

 

[mesquite_magic]

I have raised a few children many go through a stag of telling some wild stories. Like seeing the Grinch, air plane crashes, it seems a lot of animal related stories, etc. Should I have called the police to say our 4 year old crushed is airplane, he says a real plane not a toy? Or the Grinch is roaming our local woods? It would seem unlikely the Bishop or parent would assume the child correct. Now remember if the Bishop counsels the priest he cannot call the police. I know there were some cases when the Priest had previous reports against him and the Bishop knew which is the injustice, but is that the typical case?

I would have to look it up, but, yes, I believe it was typical for the times. That’s what most of these lawsuits are about, Bishops moving offending priests from parish to parish.

As far as children telling wild stories, How many children do you know who talk about Father So-And-So putting his hands on them? It’s very rare for children to lie about sexual abuse. It’s not up to me to decide if a child is lying about abuse. It’s up to me to report what the child said was happening, then let the athorties figure out if it’s the truth or not.

If the Bishop counsels the priest outside of confession then yes, he is obligated to report this behavior. If he’s counseling him with-in the confessional, he should encourage the offender to report himself.

Kim

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I would have to look it up, but, yes, I believe it was typical for the times. That’s what most of these lawsuits are about, Bishops moving offending priests from parish to parish.

after a series of allegation certainly the Priest should have been permanently separated and in cases in which that did not happen an injustice occurred

As far as children telling wild stories, How many children do you know who talk about Father So-And-So putting his hands on them? It’s very rare for children to lie about sexual abuse.

I hope you will read about Sigmund Freud. He was embarrassed and caused a lot of problems based on this idea

It’s not up to me to decide if a child is lying about abuse. It’s up to me to report what the child said was happening, then let the athorties figure out if it’s the truth or not.

you certainly have that right, however I question if you would really call the police to report the Grinch. Somehow I think you would know there is not a Grinch

If the Bishop counsels the priest outside of confession then yes, he is obligated to report this behavior.

are you sure about that?

If he’s counseling him with-in the confessional, he should encourage the offender to report himself.

Kim

 

[mesquite_magic]

after a series of allegation certainly the Priest should have been permanently separated and in cases in which that did not happen an injustice occurredI hope you will read about Sigmund Freud. He was embarrassed and caused a lot of problems based on this idea you certainly have that right, however I question if you would really call the police to report the Grinch. Somehow I think you would know there is not a Grinch are you sure about that?

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D07E3DB133CF936A25755C0A9649C8B63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fU%2fUnited%20States%20Conference%20of%20Catholic%20Bishops

This addresses the Bishops stance on reporting absusive Priests. a quote from the article:
"Yesterday, after two days of closed-door business sessions, the bishops announced a credible policy on sex abuse cases that was actually tougher on past abusers than the plan they brought to Dallas. Any priest who abuses a child – past, present or future – would be removed from the ministry. He could keep the title of priest, but would no longer be allowed to perform ministerial duties in parishes, or serve as pastor or chaplain in schools, hospitals or nursing homes. The bishops backed off from a proposal to defrock multiple offenders, in part because defrocking is a cumbersome process. Bishops would be required to report any new allegations of abuse of minors to the police."

To be fair, this article was written in 2002. Here is an article on a response from the Holy See also from 2002 (I can’t find anything more recent).
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E7DE123CF937A15753C1A9649C8B63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fU%2fUnited%20States%20Conference%20of%20Catholic%20Bishops

No, I wouldn’t report the Grinch. That is not a valid analogy. I am required by law to report any form of child abuse, period. If a child tells me that someone is touching them in an inappropriate way, I must report it, wether I believe them or not. It is not up to me to decide if the child is lying.

Professional psychologists must disclose absuvise behavior. Why shouldn’t Bishops in a theraputic setting have to as well?

cmsu.edu/x28966.xml

**"When can psychologists disclose confidential information?

Psychologists disclose confidential information only under two (2) conditions:

Psychologists may disclose confidential information only with the informed, written consent of the client. The psychologist will try to ensure that the client understands what the consequences might be if confidential information is disclosed to others. If the client seems to fully understand the implications of disclosure and decides to consent, he or she will sign a formal authorization form allowing specific information to be shared with designated others.
Psychologists disclose confidential information without informed, written consent only as mandated by state law. In Missouri, this includes:
(a) When, in the professional opinion of the psychologist, disclosure is necessary to protect against an imminent or likely risk of serious harm to self or others.
(b) When there is a court order.
(c) When there are suspicions of abuse of children or vulnerable adults. "**

Kim

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Not easy to be a Priest?

The principle of confidence is burdening. Catholics confess to God not Priests, if the Priest is there to disrupt that process the Priest then should leave. In legal services this is known as privileged speech. Most whether in or out of the legal profession understand what privilege truly means. It looks like psychologists have it easy they apparently can simply report a patient, for Priests the road is tougher. The Priest and Bishops will certainly explain the real meaning of repentance which requires both restitution and abandoning the sin. It is not unwise to have these legal standings. Priests have probably help millions straighten out their lives whether illegal activity was involved or not. We will never known the number or details and that is the way it should be.

Just to grasp the scope
The USCCB estimates equal about 220 Clergy abuse crimes per year while FBI statistics indicate about 4 million violent crimes per year in the general public. That is almost 20,000 to 1

 

[goofyjim]

Concede the issue that some priests and bishops messed up but it was not your fault as a layperson.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Concede the issue that some priests and bishops messed up but it was not your fault as a layperson.

If your posting to me I would have to assume you skipped post # 42 & #50. It is easy for many to say I would report everything (confessionals and all) as though that is some high and mighty ground. However if you think about it the reverse is true. If you know a better method to handle this plese tell us and the Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi, me and the roommates were recently discussing religion in general. One of my roommates, upon knowing that I’m Catholic, brought up the topic of the sex scandal in the Church. I wanted to give her an honest answer without sounding too defensive about it, but I wasn’t sure how to best answer the question. She’s actually been thinking about converting, not necessarily to Catholicism, but to Christianity - she was affiliated with a Protestant church.

My understanding is that priests are human, too, and as such, are not immune to sin. It is very regrettable about what happened, but that is between the priest and his God. This should not theoretically affect the priest’s ability to do his job as required by his priestly office - although I’m not entirely sure whether covering up the scandal does or doesn’t compromise their usefulness as priests, and this is the biggest problem my roommate had with the Church, on this topic. I didn’t know how to answer that.

Anyway, any help in answering this question would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Only a tiny percentage of priests have been involved in this, but it has tarnished the reputation of all. It is a terrible thing that needs to be address thoroughly, but it is not as widespread as the media makes it out to be.

FWIW, there are similar problems within the ranks of Protestant clergy, but the media doesn’t seem to focus on that.

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year
By Rose French
June 18, 2007
insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down — the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.

Religious groups and victims’ supporters have been keenly interested in the figure ever since the Roman Catholic sex abuse crisis hit five years ago. The church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[mesquite_magic]

If your posting to me I would have to assume you skipped post # 42 & #50. It is easy for many to say I would report everything (confessionals and all) as though that is some high and mighty ground. However if you think about it the reverse is true. If you know a better method to handle this plese tell us and the Church.

I never said “Confessional and all”. I specifically left out Confession. I said what is told outside the confessional, in a therapudic setting should be reported. That is why I brought up the law psychologists have to follow.

I don’t understand your"high and mighty" statement. Is it high and mighty to want to protect a child? Is it high and mighty to follow the letter of the law? Honestly, the child’s innocense/welfare is my first priority. Second is the fact that I’m not about to lose my job or go to jail to protect some scumbag who would hurt a child. The fact that some of these scumbags hid behind a collar makes their acts even more insidious in my eyes.

I’m not about to concede. Are you Texas Roofer? By the way, I enjoy debating with you. You make me work rather than just spouting off opinions.

Kim

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I never said “Confessional and all”. I specifically left out Confession…

I’m not about to concede. …
Kim

Well that reply was tailored to goofyjim, however since you asked: First read your post and consider how difficult it would be to live up to truly being confidential. The Bishops and other Priests to not want to have to protect his child molester. They are just as disguised as you! Yet in order to follow God’s commandment of sinners repenting and to do the most good they have to remain silent. Additionally, a lot of people may want to draw lines between what is said in the actual confessional, verses counseling, verses casual conversation. Occasionally the lines may have to be drawn however they must error toward protected (or privileged) speech. If you consider the Priest standing on a street corner watching a robbery sure he can testify against the criminal. However consider a Priest or group of Priests testifying before congress on CSPAN about conversations over the last twenty years on the subject of child molesting: will that fill up the confessional? Or would that action further reduce the number of people confessing sins? I am against child molesting, you are against child molesting, over 95% of the Priests are against child molesting, none of which allows us to rewrite God’s commandment to repent sin.

BTW these debates are not about conceding, I would be hurt if someone conceded. The debate is about education of each over on alternative points of view and facts not originally known.

 

[mesquite_magic]

BTW these debates are not about conceding, I would be hurt if someone conceded. The debate is about education of each over on alternative points of view and facts not originally known.

I think we are misunderstanding eachother about the confessional versus a counseling session. Anything that begins with, “Forgive me Father for I have sinned…” is bound under Confessional confidentuality, yes. But, what is said outside of the confessional is fair game.

In other respects we agree. In my first post I said that most of today’s Bishops are working to right the wrongs of the past. I don’t hold the past against today’s priests and Bishops. I would like to see everyone involved be able to heal, eventually. The ugly scars will always be there, but they won’t be festering wounds anymore (hopefully).

Kim

 

[goofyjim]

Funny I have never had anything to confess in the confessional that I wasn’t afraid to share in the public spotlight. If those priests and bishops hide the sex abuse scandal behind the screen of confession maybe it is time to lift that threat of excommunication for breaking the seal of confession. Something should be done to make sure this never happens again and I don’t mean excluding a certain segment of otherwise qualified men for the priesthood.