How to attend TLM?

[Usige]

why would anyone think they should dress more formally for Latin mass than English language liturgies?

I generally find it is more about conforming to the community. Just like many (most?) people dress “nicer” for say Christmas or Easter most attending the EF dress more formally because the community as a whole does. I’ve never seen anyone toss out or gossiped about for wearing jeans to the EF, just that they tend to stand out. The only time I know that a priest asked someone to wear a jacket was because their shirt said something inappropriate.

High masses are sung masses, low masses are spoken and a lot quieter

That is normally how people describe the difference, but what many people call a high mass is not really the case, but is rather a Missa Cantata or type of Sung Mass. This is some where between a low and high Mass as evidenced by the lack of a deacon and subdeacon.

I understand that the differentiation only came out in 1960. There is the Missa Lecta (read mass/low mass), Missa Cantata, (sung mass without sacred ministers), and a Missa Solemnis (high mass). Being that the Missa Cantata only officially appeared a few years before Vatican II I would suspect that it was rarely seen except in missionary territories before the resurgence of the EF.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I understand that the differentiation only came out in 1960. There is the Missa Lecta (read mass/low mass), Missa Cantata, (sung mass without sacred ministers), and a Missa Solemnis (high mass). Being that the Missa Cantata only officially appeared a few years before Vatican II I would suspect that it was rarely seen except in missionary territories before the resurgence of the EF…

Between (at least) 1955 and 1964, there was an additional type that was a Missa Cantata without an M.C. or Thurifer (or altar incensations) that was primarily used for weekday parochial Mass and occasionally for Sunday Mass. With the resurgence of the EF, I have not seen this ‘intermediate’ form.

 

[reggieM]

This is poppycock. There’s nothing in the “liturgical ethos” of the OF that suggests dressing down. If you attended the OF where I do, in a Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes congregation, you’d be exposed to a solemn entrance procession, the propers and ordinary in a cappella Gregorian chant, the rest in French plainchant including sung readings, incense on Sundays, feasts and solemnities, a magnificent pipe organ for the prelude (the abbot is a prize-winning organist), offertory and postlude. All done with exquisite beauty, fluidity and reverence, and with long moments of silence after the readings, homily and communion. And should you stick around for Lauds and Vespers, those are also sung in Latin in Gregorian chant. None of which suggest a somehow downscale Mass.

And I’ve been to Masses like this in many places in North America and Europe. In fact on the feast of Saint Benedict on July 11th, I was at a nun’s abbey near Montreal and the entire solemn Mass save the readings, was in Latin, with Gregorian chant.

That is nice to know. There is nothing like that around here. Everybody dresses down. I didn’t use the term “downscale Mass” - that’s your term, right? So, call our OF Masses in the diocese what you will, but people dress in accord with what they experience, or what is expected or what is part of the culture.

Which suggests that perhaps the issue is not the “liturgical ethos” of the Ordinary Form but rather the social ethos of the world we live in, not to mention the arrogant and haughty ethos of some traditionalists that help to reinforce stereotypes.

Could I say it’s part of the “liturgical ethos” of our local OF Masses without being called arrogant and haughty? I mean, I’m not dressing in suit and tie when the rest of the congregation dresses down. How is that haughty?
Actually, it seems you’re holding up your (rare) OF Masses as a higher standard than the rest of the world. Why isn’t the dressed-down casual Mass just as good?
That’s the comparison I’m trying to avoid. The Mass in the OF parish - it is what it is. I don’t judge it. I attend, participate and fit in with what the priest expects.

I myself dress neatly, simply and modestly for Mass, inspired by monastic simplicity.

That is good to hear and would seem appropriate at a Mass offered at a Benedictine abbey.

 

[reggieM]

I generally find it is more about conforming to the community. Just like many (most?) people dress “nicer” for say Christmas or Easter most attending the EF dress more formally because the community as a whole does.

I agree with that. The priest, servers and liturgy is more formal in the EF and the people dress in a similar way.

I understand that the differentiation only came out in 1960. There is the Missa Lecta (read mass/low mass), Missa Cantata, (sung mass without sacred ministers), and a Missa Solemnis (high mass). Being that the Missa Cantata only officially appeared a few years before Vatican II I would suspect that it was rarely seen except in missionary territories before the resurgence of the EF.

True. Actually the Low Mass on Sundays is somewhat of an innovation also. There were long periods in Church history where there was only the solemn High.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

This is poppycock. There’s nothing in the “liturgical ethos” of the OF that suggests dressing down. If you attended the OF where I do, in a Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes congregation, you’d be exposed to a solemn entrance procession, the propers and ordinary in a cappella Gregorian chant, the rest in French plainchant including sung readings, incense on Sundays, feasts and solemnities, a magnificent pipe organ for the prelude (the abbot is a prize-winning organist), offertory and postlude. All done with exquisite beauty, fluidity and reverence, and with long moments of silence after the readings, homily and communion. And should you stick around for Lauds and Vespers, those are also sung in Latin in Gregorian chant. None of which suggest a somehow downscale Mass.

And I’ve been to Masses like this in many places in North America and Europe. In fact on the feast of Saint Benedict on July 11th, I was at a nun’s abbey near Montreal and the entire solemn Mass save the readings, was in Latin, with Gregorian chant.

Which suggests that perhaps the issue is not the “liturgical ethos” of the Ordinary Form but rather the social ethos of the world we live in, not to mention the arrogant and haughty ethos of some traditionalists that help to reinforce stereotypes.

I myself dress neatly, simply and modestly for Mass, inspired by monastic simplicity.

Very well said.

 

[reggieM]

Very well said.

 

[Michael85]

The Maternal Heart of Mary FSSP parish in Sydney has some Traditional Latin Mass resources on their website (maternalheart.org/resources.html). There is a missal that you can print out and they have propers for all the Sundays of the year to print as well.

 

[OraLabora]

That is nice to know. There is nothing like that around here. Everybody dresses down. I didn’t use the term “downscale Mass” - that’s your term, right? So, call our OF Masses in the diocese what you will, but people dress in accord with what they experience, or what is expected or what is part of the culture.

You used the term that dressing down suited the “liturgical ethos” of the Ordinary Form Mass. That suggests a direct implication that somehow the OF Mass is also the “Downscale” Mass. I don’t know how anyone could read it any other way.

Could I say it’s part of the “liturgical ethos” of our local OF Masses without being called arrogant and haughty? I mean, I’m not dressing in suit and tie when the rest of the congregation dresses down. How is that haughty?.

The implication was that the OF somehow had an inferior liturgical ethos that inspired down-dressing. That is patently false. What the folks at your parish does has nothing to do with the OF ethos and everything to do with the general down-dressing of society. I retired in 2017; I hadn’t been required to wear a tie at work since the '90s, in spite of being in a client-facing position.

Actually, it seems you’re holding up your (rare) OF Masses as a higher standard than the rest of the world. Why isn’t the dressed-down casual Mass just as good?

No, I showed how the “liturgical ethos” of the OF was every bit as good as the EF. That some parishes are careless in the implementation of the OF, I can’t deny. But you suggested that it was somehow inherent to the OF. It isn’t. If what is now the EF were to be the only rite and Vatican II never happened, what makes you think that the cultural ethos of today would not happen? People today go to the EF for very specific reasons, drawn not only to its liturgy which we all know can be gorgeous and fitting just as the OF liturgy can be gorgeous and fitting; they also go to the EF because they are drawn to a certain era in Catholicism that no longer generally exists among the average Catholics, and probably never will.

That’s the comparison I’m trying to avoid. The Mass in the OF parish - it is what it is. I don’t judge it. I attend, participate and fit in with what the priest expects.

That is good to hear and would seem appropriate at a Mass offered at a Benedictine abbey.

Parishes have to work with the resources they have, and the Graduale Romanum, and even the Graduale Simplex, are probably more than a parish can handle. For Benedictine monks, the liturgy is everything, they build their entire lives around it. So of course practice makes perfect. Parishes and priests however can use abbeys and priories as inspiration. People like yourself and myself can put their money where their mouths are. I sing in a Gregorian schola that rotates around to different parishes every month, singing the Mass -exclusively Ordinary Form- in Gregorian chant. I belong to the Gregorian Institute of Canada. We are putting together a choir for our upcoming colloquium in Quebec that will sing the propers and ordinary at a local parish, with the full support of the pastor who is also a well-knowned liturgist.

Parishes have small, often amateur choirs with little experience. For the most part they do the best they can. The FSSP, ICK, and others, have far more resources to draw from, and the result is often that the OF is somehow inherently flawed. It isn’t. If the Vatican were to reverse the Motu Proprio and restrict the EF again, and the FSSP and ICK diverted their attentions to the OF, you’d see the same thing I see at Benedictine abbeys around the world: beautifully crafted liturgies where Gregorian chant has pride of place.

Note too that SC said that chant was to have “pride of place”, which did not mean in all places at all times. There were plenty of pre-Conciliar Masses with local popular hymns in the vernacular, of course they got around that by ensuring that the music was technically before and after the opening and closing verses of the Mass. There were also plenty of sloppy, indifferent, hastily-recited Masses around in pre-Conciliar days.

It has nothing to do with the form of the Mass and everything to do with human nature.

 

[reggieM]

It has nothing to do with the form of the Mass and everything to do with human nature.

Ok, thanks for your opinions.
In my view, you sound defensive.
I said nothing about one rite being better than another.
I said nothing about one rite being “downscale” merely because people dress a certain way.
It was you who equated how people dress with the goodness or badness of the rite.
For me, the liturgical ethos of a rite is how it is celebrated and how it forms the community that participates in it.
As I said, I dress down when I attend an OF Mass because that is what is appropriate.
The OF permits a range of options - from the more traditional style that you have, to a very casual style that priests in my diocese use.
I’m not criticizing them. You claimed I made suggestions against them, but I didn’t. You read that into my comments.

I’ll add this. You made this comment which I found very strange:

Which suggests that perhaps the issue is not the “liturgical ethos” of the Ordinary Form but rather the social ethos of the world we live in, not to mention the arrogant and haughty ethos of some traditionalists that help to reinforce stereotypes.

The issue, let’s say it’s dressing too casually, is due to the social ethos of the world.
And, apparently, it’s because some traditionalists are arrogant and haughty? So traditionalists are to blame for the behaviors of people at the OF?

 

[OraLabora]

It was you who equated how people dress with the goodness or badness of the rite.

Forgive me but my head is spinning here. I made no such equation. I said the way people dressed had to do with the times, not the rite. Let me quote you directly here:

I always dress down when attending OF liturgies.
As I see it, that’s part of the liturgical ethos.

It was you who said that dressing down fit the liturgical ethos of the Ordinary Form Mass. Not I. Not even close. Therefore you are the one equating the perceived quality of the rite with the way people dress. Not I.

I take umbrage to you twisting my words into stating something that you yourself, not I, actually stated.

 

[Jestersage]

Regarding for clothing: I will just quote what Ambrose had said: “Whatever church you may come to,** conform to its custom**, if you would avoid either receiving or giving offence.” (emphasises mine)

 

[Kielbasi]

Regarding for clothing: I will just quote what Ambrose had said: “Whatever church you may come to,** conform to its custom**, if you would avoid either receiving or giving offence.” (emphasises mine)

this makes sense, although I wouldn’t have known the tendency of latin mass attendees attire if i hadn’t read this post.

i haven’t been to latin mass since the nixon administration,

If i go to a mormon funeral, i would certainly wear a white shirt and dark slacks-in order not to stand out for the same reason

 

[DanielStDominic]

And, apparently, it’s because some traditionalists are arrogant and haughty? So traditionalists are to blame for the behaviors of people at the OF?

Excuse me for chiming in, but yes, I personally do believe traditionalism has stigmatized a great deal of things that many individuals choose to avoid as a result.

That may not explain the majority of an OF congregation, by any means, but it’s a valid explanation nonetheless.

 

[Entwhistler]

Excuse me for chiming in, but yes, I personally do believe traditionalism has stigmatized a great deal of things that many individuals choose to avoid as a result.

That may not explain the majority of an OF congregation, by any means, but it’s a valid explanation nonetheless.

Stigmatized what for instance?

 

[Col103]

Excuse me for chiming in, but yes, I personally do believe traditionalism has stigmatized a great deal of things that many individuals choose to avoid as a result.

That may not explain the majority of an OF congregation, by any means, but it’s a valid explanation nonetheless.

lol. What does that mean? “I can’t wear a tie, someone might think I’m rigid!”

 

[reggieM]

Forgive me but my head is spinning here. I made no such equation. I said the way people dressed had to do with the times, not the rite. Let me quote you directly here:
I always dress down when attending OF liturgies.
As I see it, that’s part of the liturgical ethos.

You’re assuming that I meant that dressing down was equivalent to bad liturgy. I never said it – you did.

You said:

No, I showed how the “liturgical ethos” of the OF was every bit as good as the EF.

Notice, you talked about how one ethos is as “good” as another. I never said either was bad. I said I dressed down for one. You concluded that meant that since I dressed down, that was something negative about the liturgy. So, you went on to try to prove that the liturgy at your parish is “better” than elsewhere. I never said anything about the OF or the EF in that regard - never did I say that dressing down was bad. I merely said that it is a custom that is part of the ethos of that form. I didn’t condemn dressing down - how could I when I do it myself as I admitted? As I said - I believe you are too defensive and you misinterpreted what I said. Read that quote above again. 'I always dress down because I see it as part of the ethos". Where did I say there was something wrong with that?

It was you who said that dressing down fit the liturgical ethos of the Ordinary Form Mass. Not I. Not even close. Therefore you are the one equating the perceived quality of the rite with the way people dress. Not I.

As above, you moved from the topic of dressing down to getting defensive about how one rite is “as good as” another. So, you equated how people dress with the quality of the rite. I did not do that.

I take umbrage to you twisting my words into stating something that you yourself, not I, actually stated.

I think you need to look at your own assumptions here and how you misunderstood what I said.

 

[reggieM]

Regarding for clothing: I will just quote what Ambrose had said: “Whatever church you may come to,** conform to its custom**, if you would avoid either receiving or giving offence.” (emphasises mine)

Great quote. That’s what I try to do myself.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I take umbrage to you twisting my words into stating something that you yourself, not I, actually stated.

Having read through the posts, it is indeed quite understandable that you take umbrage.

 

[reggieM]

Having read through the posts, it is indeed quite understandable that you take umbrage.

We all need a little umbrage once in a while, so take as much as you want. I didn’t realize I was giving any but if it makes you feel better, have fun with it.

 

[OraLabora]

You’re assuming that I meant that dressing down was equivalent to bad liturgy. I never said it – you did.

I did not. You clearly stated that dressing down was part of the liturgical ethos when you attended the OF. The liturgy is integral to the Rite. Ergo, you put down the Rite.

Had you said dressing down was part of the cultural ethos of the place where you attended the OF, then I wouldn’t have taken umbrage. But you clearly associated the dressing down to the liturgy, which is part of the rite.

So either you made a poor choice of words, or you meant what you said and you perceive the OF liturgy as too casual. Which is it?