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reggieM
Guest
Yes, he said “many things” - like what?
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reggieM
Guest
You equated “dressing down” with “something bad” - not me.
Culture and liturgy go together. The OF is open to a wider range of interpretations and this includes how the congregation is expected to dress and comport themselves. I leave this to the priests who are in charge of the liturgy. It’s not my place to say one OF is better than another - which it appeared you were doing by holding your own up as a standard. Should I take umbrage because you are denigrating the OF Masses I attend where we dress down? Because I didn’t claim they were “not as good” as EF Masses - you did.
Show me where I said it was “too casual”.
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Kielbasi
Guest
I don’t think that there is any link at all between liturgical reform and casual attire during mass.
Our Pentecostal friends weren’t subject to V2 changes at all- but in the days of old, they’d be dressed sharply on Sunday morning. Today, they are very casual as well
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reggieM
Guest
To pre-empt a comment that may arise above.
What I meant by “let’s say” above is, "The issue, I think in the mind of OraLabora, is … "
For me, that was not an “issue” that I raised except to say that we have a dress code for our EF. What other OF parishes do is up to them.
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reggieM
Guest
In the interest of having some peace among the good Catholics here and not just sniping at each other, I didn’t intend to put down the OF. If I offended you in some way, I apologize.
Here’s the way I view it.
The OF liturgy is both shaped by the culture and it shapes a culture. It allows more flexibility in style. It has more opportunities for inculturation. I’ll say also, the priest’s attitude, demeanor, comportment and intentions shape the congregation.
Most of the OF priests I know have no problem with how people dress down for Sunday Mass – I’ll say with the exception of how some women dress, but generally there is nothing said about this.
I don’t feel it is my place to impose my standards on those priests (or bishops where the bishop sets the standard).
It’s my belief that the EF has a different formative character on the faithful, as I said, the priests have more precise, fixed and formal ritual to observe – thus, this shapes the people to respond with more “dressing up” for Mass.
I prefer this approach for a number of reasons.
But I have not said that this is “better” in some absolute way, and I have not said that the EF is a “better rite” than any other in the church.
I actually don’t pay that much attention to how people dress at the OF. If there is no dress code (and I have never seen one published at OF liturgies except at the churches in Rome) and the priests offering the OF don’t care or encourage casual dress then people are not violating anything. Of course, I would think common sense would prevail in cases where people are dressed provocatively even by secular standards, but what am I going to do about it anyway? I’m not going to come on CAF and start complaining about what people do in other parishes.
If people violate the dress code in my parish, our priest deals with it. Nobody gets kicked out. I don’t even think people get frowned upon or shunned. It’s only newcomers who dress casually, and if they stay around for some weeks - that changes.
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reggieM
Guest
It’s a chicken or the egg problem. Does the liturgy shape culture or does the culture shape the liturgy? It’s a little of both.
But if a liturgical rite allows the sacred ministers to adopt a more casual attitude (and the priests take that option to act that way), then I think that attitude will be reflected in how the faithful dress and act at Mass.
Some OF Masses are quite formal, as OraLabora pointed out at his own.
The EF allows fewer options for the priest. Just about every movement is strictly defined, so it is more formal. Thus people respond to that.
Some people don’t like the EF for that reason.
But I’d think, here in the Traditional Catholic forum on CAF, we wouldn’t get many people who really don’t like the traditional Liturgy, right? It should be a place for those who like it or want to learn about it. Not for those who don’t like it and want to knock it down – wouldn’t you think?
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OraLabora
Guest
The Mass itself is. The people, however, are just as casual as anywhere else, in particular in summer as the abbey is a well-known tourist attraction due to its prize-winning cheese factory, cider factory and in fall, apple orchards.
Which agains shows that there is no correlation, nor causative relationship, between the liturgy and the way people dress. The liturgy at the abbey is as formal as you can get here.
I myself dress neatly, but simply. No suit, no ties. I believe in Benedictine simplicity and I have a very minimalist wardrobe.
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reggieM
Guest
You may be right - I don’t know for sure.
I would say, however, if you’re talking about tourists - they’re bringing attitudes and behaviors formed elsewhere, not at the abbey.
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OraLabora
Guest
Accepted.
With respect, ask anyone who was around for a long time before Vatican II and you’ll hear plenty about priests who had a very casual and laissez-faire attitude towards Mass: rushed Mass in 20 minutes, barely audible Masses, etc. Yet people dressed more formally then just the same. So I just don’t see the connection between dress code and liturgy.
It is true the OF has options. But it is not which penitential rite is used, or which EP is used, that determines the formality of the Mass. Our abbey uses every EP on a rotating basis (well, IV is the least used but it is used, and the Roman Canon is used frequently, even on ordinary weekdays). No matter which EP the abbey uses, the Mass is just as formal. The only difference is that a simpler chant tone is used on regular (non-feast) weekdays. This is very much in keeping with degrees of solemnity allowed in the liturgy that also existed in a more formal way in the 1962 Missal (low Mass, Missa Cantata, Solemn High Mass, etc.)
It is my belief that if a priest is casual or careless about the liturgy today, he’d be just as much so if the pre-Conciliar rite was still the only rite, and people would dress down just as much for Mass if that were the case, as they do now because that’s where N. American culture is now. This isn’t really inculturation of the Mass, nor does it flow from the liturgy. It flows from the general culture of the place. Inculturation in the liturgy is another matter and is more seen in the music, in some forms of African rituals (where very colourful dress is their idea of formality), etc.
The more formal nature of the EF today comes from the fact that it is a preserved rite that is used extraordinarily (the meaning of “extraordinary” here refers to the fact that it is not the regularly used rite, not in the sense of superiority).
I use this analogy: I love trains, especially old steam trains. When steam ruled the railways, there were clean locomotives, dirty locomotives and anything in between. They were workaday engines, and maybe the cleaner engines ended up on the better trains, but you would find engines in all sorts of condition pulling your train.
Now only a handful of steam engines exist, and are in the hands of preservationists who treat them with tender loving care. So any steam engine you find running today or in a museum will be in pristine condition. If steam were still king today, you’d still be seeing dirty engines, clean engines and anything in between, with perhaps clean engines on prestige trains like the Flying Scotsman just as better liturgies are often in cathedrals and abbeys. Not every Mass was a Missa Cantata or Solemn High Mass back in the day…
In a way, it’s the same with the EF. People with a deep attachment to it are ensuring its preservation, and in general that is a very good thing. Institutes like the FSSP and ICK are to the EF rite what museum curators are to steam engines. They allow the public to see their beloved rite, or engines, at their very best. It is not necessarily how the public saw it in 1953 in a backwater rural parish without an expert schola singing Gregorian chant and a low Mass with a small amateur choir singing vernacular hymns -technically before the formal start and after the formal end of the Mass. And a highly polished steam engine is not what they would have found pulling their branch line mixed train to some rural backwater station either.
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reggieM
Guest
Ok, I don’t see it that way - but there’s no way to go back to the 1860s or whatever pre-Conciliar era you have in mind, so we’ll just have to leave it at that.
I don’t follow that. It is inculturation to include African tribal liturgical dancing, but it’s not inculturation to include an American-cultural styles in the liturgy?
At one time every one was a Solemn High.
I disagree, but I guess you feel no hesitation in denigrating the work of good priests?
EF communites are not attempting to return to 1953. It’s a living rite. I notice a similarity with Eastern Rite Catholic communities in my area that take a similarly non-casual approach by both priests and congregations.
In any case, I understand your point of view. I don’t feel a need or interest in arguing about this, myself. I disagree with you, but I hope you will accept that we can be free to hold different opinions on these matters.
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jeannetherese
Guest
Thank you for sharing that link. I loved the printable missal which might give the O.P. an opportunity to preview and pray before assisting.
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phil19034
Guest
I love attending the EF, esp a Solemn High Mass. And I agree 100% with this whole post (I cut it down because my post was too many characters).Before Vatican II, people used to wear shirt and ties to Major League Baseball games. By the 1970s, this stopped. Vatican II had zero effect on this change.
Before Vatican II, men used to wear a Tux to attend an evening wedding or even to attend dinner at night. Today, you never see a tux at a restaurant and men don’t wear tuxes to weddings unless it’s specifically requested in the invitation.
Before Vatican II, most men wore shirt and tie to all Protestant services, today, they often wear the same as you would see in a typical Catholic Parish.
Vatican II and the new Mass had zero effect on what people where to Mass. What people wear is strictly cultural. There were plenty of times in the middle ages where people wore rags to Mass on Sundays.
I strongly believe the reason why you often see more people dressed up at an EF Mass vs the OF Mass today is because of a few different reasons:
- For some attending, the EF Mass is a “treat,” not something they do every week. So they treat it similar to attend Mass on Easter or Christmas, and dress accordingly.
- For some, they are longing for the culture of the 1950s, not just the Mass of the 1950s, but every life.
*For example, I know of a man who attends the EF Mass and he dresses just like pictures of my grandfather from the 1950s. His wears his hair in a 1950s style, the frame of his glasses are typical of the 1950s, we wears a white, short sleeved shirt with a plain, narrow 1950s styled tie. He even has a typical 1950s style mustache and wears his paints above his belly button.
*
3) The people who attend wear shirt a tie to the EF mass are the same type of people who would normally wear shirt and tie when they attend OF masses.
4) The EF mass can be considered a devotion. In general, I would argue that most Catholics who practice devotions tend to dress at least business causal to mass, even at the OF. I know a baby boomer aged man who attend Marian events. He’s always in a shirt, tie and jacket at mass.
5) The invention of “Business Casual” – I honestly believe this is the number 1 reason of the “dress down” we see across North America.
The idea of “wearing your Sunday best” is very agricultural and industrial. Farmers and blue collar workers would often have nicer clothes that they wore to Church and other special events. It was called their “Sunday best” because it was worn on Sundays.
Business people on the other hand, had to wear that all the time. They always wore “Sunday Clothes” to work and every day of the week. So farmers and blue collar people would simply buy and where whatever fashion was used by the professional class.
With the advent of “business casual” the clothing choices of the professional class has dramatically grown. For some people & companies, business causal even includes jeans.
So it’s no wonder, people are dressed down in Church today, because they are dressed down in everyday life. Furthermore, to some people, dressing up is viewed as vanity instead of respect.
Personally, I wear the same thing to OF Masses and EF Masses, that I wear to my job at a Law Firm: Business Casual (slacks and a collared shirt - button down or polo). However, on Christmas and Easter, I wear a suit. Now, if I wore a suit every day (like I did 17 years ago) then perhaps I would wear a suit to Mass everyday. But I don’t.
I will acknowledge that some people are inspired to wear what the majority are wearing. For example, I know of some women who only wear a Mantilla when attending the EF mass and don’t wear one when attending OF masses. But regardless, I don’t think people are wearing clothing because of the Liturgy itself. I think their dress is impacted by the “specialness” of the event they are attending and by the general culture and audience.
God Bless
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I agree with your whole post but especially this part. For many of us who have worked for many years in business casual workplaces, “dressing up” beyond just wearing clean, modest business casual-type wear does not carry an extra holy or respectful connotation. If worn too often it could actually work against you by making you look too rigid in a workplace that’s supposed to be fostering innovation and teamwork.
To the extent I would dress up for any Mass it would be to better match what the crowd was wearing and not stand out, as Mass is not a place where one wants to be noticed for their clothing (or at least I don’t). If I go to an EF High Mass or to an Easter Sunday Mass, I know people there are going to be dressy. If I go to an OF daytime Mass, as I attended today, I know people there will be wearing jeans, casual pants and tops, a couple of summer dresses or skirts and blouses on some ladies and religious sisters, so if I show up in a polo and a pair of knee shorts I know I will blend in, whereas that same outfit would stand out undesirably at Easter Sunday Mass or an EF Mass.
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ProVobis
Guest
I too have attended Mass at a Benedictine monastery and I would again. It is certainly different than the local English or Spanish Masses.
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Jenniferolg
Guest
My question isn’t specifically about the TLM but about head coverings for women at Holy Mass. Some women in our parish wear veils, but I was wondering if it is still acceptable for women to wear other sort of head coverings such as hats or caps to church. At our school, neither women nor men can wear any sort of head coverings. I always find that odd, because traditionally only men should remove their head covering when they enter a building, and women can leave theirs on. At our school, the reason is that if we say men can’t, we also have to say women can’t. My response is, why not let them both if we want equality?
Thanks,
Jennifer
Thanks,
Jennifer
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reggieM
Guest
Good questions and that sounds … weird.
I’ve visited EF Masses where they had little baskets with veils available for women to borrow for Mass if they wanted - a nice custom.
Yes, hats or caps for women is a great tradition, still used. The Sunday hat - it should be modest not flamboyant, but it’s perfectly good instead of a veil. There’s no official requirement but at our EF I’d say more than half of the women wear head-covering. More of the young girls and women than the older.
But yes, I would call that a very strange decision that nobody can cover their head at church. St. Paul has a nice teaching about how women should cover their head - for good reason, and it was a sign of reverence for men to remove their hat.
It’s interesting how that old rule worked - a woman’s hair is her glory, thus she veils.
A man’s hair is less flattering (especially if it is disappearing), so a hat for him can be a display of vanity.
There’s equality - but it requires knowing the difference between men and women and that’s something that not very many people know about these days.
– Just kidding and I don’t mean any disrespect about your school. I just had never heard of that before.
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phil19034
Guest
yes, women can wear other head coverings at Mass, like hats (i.e. the kinds of hats you see Queen Elizabeth II and the Duchess of Cambridge wearing)
However, a lot of people consider baseball caps worn indoors to be ill mannered -
regardless of gender.
Baseball caps traditionally were not considered the same as traditional “hats.”
God Bless.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
The “hats in school, should they be allowed?” debates have been around for decades and there are many, many news articles on the subject. The gist/ summary of the articles seems to be that hats cause a lot of distractions, attitude, horseplay, and sometimes cheating/ security concerns, so it’s easier to just ban them for both sexes and therefore have one less problem to deal with.
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reggieM
Guest
Sorry - I misread school for church in my reply.
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Kielbasi
Guest
i would expect a lot of people with interest in the topic, either pro or con, to show up
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