How To Be A Traditional Catholic In A Liberal Parish?

[sjeanine]

Hi, I was reading this post and just wanted to say that I am also a convert to the Catholic faith and belong to a pretty liberal parish. I often attend mass at parishes which are a further distance just because I get more out of them. I love the books by Scott Hahn and highly recommend them! Good luck to you on your journey. You “are” the light in the tunnel! Keep up the good work for God.

 

[makamoimoi]

Hi Irish Dude,
A friend of mine influenced me a great deal re: Latin Mass and wearing lace mantillas to Mass and Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. And guess what? I am 55 years old, and she is 32 years old!!! She is longing for something she never knew and loves it, she prays the rosary in Latin. I had only Latin Mass until I was about 14 y/o. I just want a reverent Mass, I am not sold on all Latin at all. But the Holy Spirit goes where He wishes. This is a very liberal diocese where I live now, but most of the new and young priests are very devout, devoted to The Church and interested in tradition. So there is hope for the future!!!

 

[windsorhouse]

I am a 68-year old who moved to Central New York. I can empathize with the concerns of persons seeking more “traditional” Catholicism. When I attended Mass in my former parish, I was truly scandalised by what went on before Mass, how persons dressed, and the activities of ushers and the lay persons authorised to distribute Communion. In my new parish in the suburbs of Syracuse, I was hoping for a respite of sorts, but it is wishful thinking. Before Mass, some older ladies pray the rosary. One would think that out of respect, other parishioners would keep their mouths shut and not be talking about their personal lives, ballgames, and hunting. On some occasions, the activity is not very far from the din of a fish market. People come to church with just about the worst article of clothing in their closets. Would we dress that way if we were visiting a government official? At the “Our Father” everyone wants to grab your hands and raise them in prayer. At the “Kiss of Peace”, there is a mad scramble to shake hands across aisles. The celebrant himself, holds hands with the altar servers who surround the altar. In my former parish, the priest left the altar and walked down to the congregation to shake hands. I have learned from all of this confusion that God can and does “reverse” conditions for His glory.
I have become aware that my God is still present and while others may not give Him the courtesy and respect He is entitled to, I will, inspite of the distractions, adore and honour Him. I must rise above the situations which could lead me astray and thank Him for His Presence which allows me to be discerning. These experiences have also caused me to take a more critical look at myself. We must pray very hard for our Catholic Church!

 

[rgorton]

After reading this thread I find it is more common than not to be in a more liberal parish- here in Oklahoma, Catholics are the minority, and our Priest has tried to move the parish to more reverence - the previous Priest was very liberal- Fr. Brooks is also a convert- but it has been a slow process and it is easy to get discouraged- i think the bottom line is to pray for our parishes, maybe even in Adoration- things can change…

 

[Annc]

He has bluntly stated that I cannot long for these things because I have never experienced them.
/QUOTE]

At the risk of repeating what others have said, I just want to encourage IrishDude to remain steadfast. You are in a difficult situation but you are not the oddball. And if you are then oddball is good.

The above quote just confirms how off track and perhaps poorly educated the priest is. God gave us a longing for him. We do not have to experience God to long for God. “Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee, O Lord” (St. Augustine).

I too am “conservative” and in a liberal parish. It has been difficult but God is bringing much good out of this situation. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you. It may be harmful to your spiritual life to be in this parish but it may also strengthen you since you will be forced to pray, think, study the Faith. The spiritual blessings have been amazing. Keep the faith!

God bless.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

After reading this thread I find it is more common than not to be in a more liberal parish- here in Oklahoma, Catholics are the minority, and our Priest has tried to move the parish to more reverence - the previous Priest was very liberal- Fr. Brooks is also a convert- but it has been a slow process and it is easy to get discouraged- i think the bottom line is to pray for our parishes, maybe even in Adoration- things can change…

I agree that it is very easy to get discouraged; I agree that we should pray for the Church; I agree we should pray for our parishes and our priests but…

Things will not improve until those of us who want to see liturgical abuses ended, irreverent Church behaviors halted, liberal interpretations of scripture stopped, improper attire banned and a return to teaching the whole unvarnished Catholic Faith stand up and speak out.

Too often I see orthodox Catholics take the timid road. We commiserate together, we pray and we endure (usually in silence). On the other hand our liberal (and sometimes heretical) brothers and sisters stand up and speak out. Some can be quite abrasive. They volunteer to lead the various ministries and lead them in accordance with their liberal views. Heaven help someone that suggests a more orthodox approach or view. They are immediately labeled as behind-the-cultural-times, ultra conservative, a radical conservative or with some other pejorative term. Nice huh? Are they right or in reality do those with orthodox views simply have their eye on the ball (Catholic doctrine, apostolic tradition and the teachings of the magisterium)? I’d like to think the latter and that a better label for conservatives is ‘faithful’.

Why do conservative Catholics seem to wither in front of our outspoken liberal brothers and sisters instead of arming themselves with a little knowledge of Church doctrine, the GIRM etc. and resisting in an informed, charitable and persistent manner. After all it is our Church too! We are part of the Church Militant and we need to become a bit more militant in defense of the faith.

Iowa Mike

 

[windsorhouse]

Mike, I grew up the Caribbean in the forties and fifties and attended Catholic High school. The island was and still is predominately Catholic. I remember a Redemptorist priest saying from the pulpit that improper attire by women would not be tolerated in the Cathedral and warning the women that those who failed to heed this warning would be stopped at the church doors. He did just that. He planted himself at the main entrance and stopped any female testing his resolve. The message got across.

 

[william_menke]

some of us might maintain that the NO as presented in the U.S. is essentially a protestant service and any participation in it would be a mortal sin…participation in a heresy…

 

[makamoimoi]

some of us might maintain that the NO as presented in the U.S. is essentially a protestant service and any participation in it would be a mortal sin…participation in a heresy…

This “as presented in the US” is why I am not so sure about going back to all Latin, we will create this cycle of too much one way or the other.
Why not take the NO Mass and make it what it SHOULD be. Like EWTN.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Mike, I grew up the Caribbean in the forties and fifties and attended Catholic High school. The island was and still is predominately Catholic. I remember a Redemptorist priest saying from the pulpit that improper attire by women would not be tolerated in the Cathedral and warning the women that those who failed to heed this warning would be stopped at the church doors. He did just that. He planted himself at the main entrance and stopped any female testing his resolve. The message got across.

You suggest that flip-flops, short shorts, halter tops, bermuda shorts, muscle shirts, short-shorts, dirty jeans and a holey t-shirt, extremely short shirts, underwear sticking out the top of skirts and mens pants, bare feet, t-shirts with really inappropriate slogans or pictures…would you really tell people they shouldn’t
dress this way?

How about people chewing gum, text messaging during church (adults and kids), uncontrolled tots, putting on make up, combing the locks, making repeated trips to the rest room…would these be considered irreverent.

How about people to file up to communion with their hands at their sides while talking with the people in the pews or the kids, laughing all the way up…and allllll the way back, with their hands still at their sides…would you ban this behavior too.

How about Eucharistic ministers who are inappropriately dressed, or servers that are dressed for the playground…flip-flops, dirty tennis shoes, make-up…etc…would you ban this as well.

Gee, if this actually was done it would take the NO to a different level of reverence and may actually teach something about reverence to those at mass. But then I’m one of those radical conservative people.

Serviam,

Iowa Mike

 

[sumergoest]

It is not just in the US that such challenges are encountered: Here in the UK I am in a very similar sittuation. Within ten minutes drive of me here is a beautiful 200 year old traditional style Catholic Church, but celebration within it seems far from “traditional”: About 1 in 20 people might bow there heads passing The Blessed Sacrament; I am looked on as a looney because I genuflect; there is hardly any acknowledgement or mention of our Blessed Mother and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, especially the Agnus Dei, is said in a pefunctory, almost conversational way.
I am blessed, however with having several other Catholic Churches within about a 45 minute drive where the celebration of Mass is more in keeping with my asspirations. It is not always easy to make such journeys but John Paul II once said that prayer joined to sacrifice is the most powerful force in the world. What more fitting a way is there to combine prayer and sacrifice, than to endure a certain amount of personal sacrifice so as to join in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. (Either by travelling to a Mass which suits our make up or my enduring the distractions of where we are.)
That said, there are a few other considerations: Through the Grace of God, each one of us, whilst having a common source is uniquely individual: Some will find infusive prayer is aided by a religious icon or picture, others will find walking through the countryside more conducive. Within the Church there are many charims and different people are drawn to different styles: There are many gifts, but always one Spirit.
If we look at the history of The Church;in the earliest days The Mass was always celebrated in the “local language”; so that the people of God were active participants. It was only in the Middle Ages that Latin became the norm for the celebration because the sense of the sacred was being lost.It is interesting to see now how easy it is for the sense of the sacred to be lost by making the celebration in “everyday language”.
Here I think lies the answer: What matters is our INWARD attitude and awareness. Jesus spoke many times of how we shouldn’t be like the Pharsees concentrating on outward gestures. Man looks at outward appearences, but God sees what is within. Yes our outward gestures remind us and others of the Sacred Mysteries which we are participating in, but what matters most is our inner disposition.
So to the young man who posted this thread I close by saying the following: Continue to encounter Christ where you can: it is undoubtably the Grace of God which is calling you to Himself and giving you the depth of yearning which you are experiencing. When circumstances permit, develop that closer relationship with God within an atmosphere which suits your personal make up. In the meantime hold on to that realisation that God sees the inner yearning of the soul and join any hardship and sacrifice you encounter to His eternal sacrifice.
My God bless you and keep you always in His care.

 

[dmdale]

Someone suggested skipping Mass…DON’T. Don’t let anyone keep you from Jesus in the Mass. However, you need to decide just how inconvenient it is to go to a different Catholic Church. We drive 45min. most Sundays to go to the traditional Latin Mass. I have several friends who drive that long to go to a traditional daily Mass. We have made several 1.5 hr trips to a Latin Mass when we lived elsewhere. Jesus is worth it!

 

[aimee]

Perhaps you can be a visible influence in your parish. There are those who would benefit from just you being there…

Of course visiting other parishes would be a help and would keep you grounded…

 

[Condottiero]

Perhaps you can be a visible influence in your parish. There are those who would benefit from just you being there…

This doesn’t always work. For a lot of the younger families, I think this might be all they know. As for the older people, well, I’ve posted in another thread about people reading Diocesean Newspapers during Mass. :^P

The Pastors should be the one’s responsible for sheparding their parishoners, right? Any suggestions on how you’d express to the Pastors that you think Mass has gotten way too liberal?

Last week they had a maraca in the choir. About 3/4ths of the Mass is sung in a very bad folkmusic/grammar school music teacher form with the music director banging on the piano.

I know I could go elsewhere (especially the Cathedral where I know they have a good, reverent Mass), but I’d prefer to go to this one since it’s just around the corner from my house, I’ve become more involved in this Parish and know people, and the Pastor is sort of like a family acquaintance (well, he was one of the neighbourhood kids when my Mom was growing up).

I do plan on running for the Parish Council in May, and I’ll probably wind up making more than one comment about how ‘Ale-ale-ale. Luu-uuu-ia. Ale-ale-ale. Luu-uuu-ia. Aleluia, ah-le-lu-yah.’ Drives me crazy if I get on it. Other than that, I’m not too sure how to bring it up.

 

[reggieM]

The Pastors should be the one’s responsible for sheparding their parishoners, right? Any suggestions on how you’d express to the Pastors that you think Mass has gotten way too liberal?

There are a couple of ways that I’m familiar with (tested in a very liberal diocese with varying results).

1. Build a friendship over time. Give him a gift, be nice somehow, invite him over for dinner with your family, get him tickets to the symphony, make him a chocolate cake … the sky’s the limit with what you can or have to do to finally get him to trust you. Unfortunately, you can’t say anything negative at all during that time (it could take months or maybe a year depending on whether he likes you or not, depending on your personality, etc). Then, when the time is right – you gently work your way into the topic of the liturgy. When he recoils in horror, you have to be ready with another cake, personal check, tickets, etc – and he’ll eventually forget the horror and shock of the criticism. But then you have to try again and perhaps even reason with him. I have seen this method work, but only in the hands of a very capable wife and mother who knows how to win over her own husband and she uses the same technique with the pastor.
2. A relentless pressure every time you see him. You have to have nerves of steel and persistence and a very thick skin (ready to have the door shut in your face, etc). He will eventually hate you but he may give in to your requests simply to shut you up.

Both techniques take a certain kind of person.

There are probably other methods but I’ve seen these two work.

 

[makamoimoi]

We have to pray for our priests. These guys are getting killed, believe me. There are pressures on every side and 99% of what they hear are complaints. No one is ever happy. Fr. Corapi says not to complain about a priest to him until you have lost sleep praying for and lost weight fasting for the priest.

After all that, tickets to nice places to eat/movies/symphonies/gym (for the priest) are probably the best. They don’t make that much $. People are always bringing them cookies etc, which most don’t need or want, unless you make something really fab they just happen to love. Infiltrating the parish committees is much more difficult than praying and fasting. For all the concerted efforts of numerous friends for years at a local libby parish, they got a labyrinth.

"John Paul II once said that prayer joined to sacrifice is the most powerful force in the world. What more fitting a way is there to combine prayer and sacrifice, than to endure a certain amount of personal sacrifice so as to join in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass"

This is a great idea. If we could all go where we love to go to Mass, that would at least support what’s good, this will help me be less lazy about driving an hour … early Sunday morning. …yikes…

 

[Iowa_Mike]

We have to pray for our priests. These guys are getting killed, believe me. There are pressures on every side and 99% of what they hear are complaints. No one is ever happy. Fr. Corapi says not to complain about a priest to him until you have lost sleep praying for and lost weight fasting for the priest.

After all that, tickets to nice places to eat/movies/symphonies/gym (for the priest) are probably the best. They don’t make that much $. People are always bringing them cookies etc, which most don’t need or want, unless you make something really fab they just happen to love. Infiltrating the parish committees is much more difficult than praying and fasting. For all the concerted efforts of numerous friends for years at a local libby parish, they got a labyrinth.

"John Paul II once said that prayer joined to sacrifice is the most powerful force in the world. What more fitting a way is there to combine prayer and sacrifice, than to endure a certain amount of personal sacrifice so as to join in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass"

This is a great idea. If we could all go where we love to go to Mass, that would at least support what’s good, this will help me be less lazy about driving an hour … early Sunday morning. …yikes…

I love Father Corapi. I’ve heard him say that we should take care when criticizing a priest, I’ve also heard him criticize priests who were in heresy or teaching error or being irreverent. I think he doesn’t want people to ‘nit-pick’ a priest over minor issues. I don’t think he is suggesting we ignore major ones.

How do you bring about change if you don’t discuss the issues with your priest?

I agree that being a priest isn’t easy but being married and raising a family isn’t easy either. Every vocation has its challenges.

I agree we should all pray for priests and for more vocations to the priesthood.

I agree we should all support our priests in every way we can.

Does this mean we should sit back in silence while irreverent or heretical practices and teachings pervade? I don’t think so. There are nine ways a Catholic can be an accessory to another’s sin (even a priest’s):

By counsel - By Command - By consent - By provocation - By praise or flattery - By concealment - By partaking - By silence - By defense of the ill done.

How can a Catholic not be complicit if they turn a blind eye and deaf ear to practices or teachings that might well be leading others into error? I don’t know why anyone would be reluctant to bring these matters to their priests attention so long as they do so in a charitable manner.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[bkropp]

I hear all of your comments. However, a Priest is a Priest. And the Eucharist is always the Eucharist. Without the Priest that many are criticising on this forum, that parish would not have the Eucharist.

 

[bkovacs]

What I would do in your situation, assuming you couldn’t get to another parish? Join the altar servers. Make sure you perform the tasks with great practice and devotion, bow reverently, teach the younger servers carefully, say the prayers piously. If you can’t, then kneel at the appropriate times, no matter what. Bow during the creed as we are supposed to. Make the sign of the cross at the appropriate times. Genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament and bow to the altar. If someone asks what you are doing, gently explain. Christ hung out with people who needed help. A parish such as this needs a dose of obedience and traditional piety. Eventually, you will win. The Church is heading in this direction, returning the norm which she has lived for 2000 years. It is easy to despair, because the entire course of our parent’s lives and our lives will be spent in a time of disunity and brokenness, and it will be hard for us to realize that this is but an instant in the two-millenia history of Christ’s Church. It is nothing, a blip. It will pass. Have faith.

I remember when I was an altar boy, years ago, we did allot. We basically set everything up for the Mass. Basically the things the laity do now. Sad isn’t it!. Altar boys don’t do nearly what they did years ago. I won’t speak for altar girls!.

 

[una_fides]

I was in a similar situation. All the parishes in my area are liberal and every mass offered contains many many abuses. I could no longer in good conscience attend these protestant-like services, in which the rules from Rome are openly ignored and disobeyed. (I could list the abuses, but they are rather extensive.) There are a lot of Catholic churches in my area, so I decided to visit many different ones for daily mass to see how the masses were performed. Sadly, only one of the ten I attended performed the mass “properly” meaning didn’t improvise prayers, etc.

I now only attend the TLM, which unfortunately is not offered on weekdays but only on Sundays. I have two options: one that is a 30 minute drive and another that is about 45 minutes. I do not consider the driving to be a problem. When you think about how there have been saints that have had to walk hours or even days to attend mass, a 45 minute comfortable drive in my car is hardly even a sacrifice in comparison.

All that said, I too am a convert to the Catholic faith and was confirmed, etc, in a very liberal parish. The more and more I studied Catholic teaching, which was how I converted in the first place, the more I realized that the parish priest was a heretic and was leading souls to hell through his teachings (such as when he told people they could never commit mortal sin and to NOT go to confession regularly; or when he cast doubt on the bodily resurrection of our Lord). Yes, something must be done, and these priests cannot be allowed to continue and must be stopped. I honestly feel that it’s a lack of enforcement by bishops that is the biggest problem. These priests cannot be permitted to continue. Unless the bishops enforce the rule of the Church and confront these disobedient priests, the abuses, which sadden our Lord to such a great extent will continue.