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buffalo
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Follow the 10 commandments? Do you really know what the first three are?
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siamesecat
Guest
I come to the board because as I said, I have interest in all religions and am trying to come to a conclusion on why so many people follow Catholicism, intelligent, well educated people who certianly have a grasp on technology and reality. I know Catholics dont abandon all logic, Ive just always wanted to figure out what it is about religion that lets people with a firm grip on reality believe. I have not attacked Catholics, I dont come here to go against others, I come here to share a perspective of an atheist and to understand what Catholics believe.
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buffalo
Guest
How do you think the Catholic defenders are doing against the atheists?In the interest of my own honesty I have to come clean and admit I feel that I wish I had written this post word for word. I admire the people here who brace themselves against their scorn to dialogue with them. Apologists who grapple against people infected with this My Human-Intellect is Supreme Attitude are shining a light, not cursing the darkness, so I just wanted to cheer you on in such a dreary task.
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buffalo
Guest
Take all the world religions, find out their main beliefs, categorize them and you will find many share the same truths. These truths can be found by human reason. They are a foundation if you will for a pyramid. When all is assembled you will find Catholicism at the point.
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squirt
Guest
I certainly hope you feel welcome around here.
Lots of people around here try to make atheists out to be all the same with all the same views and personality traits … try not to take some of the posters around here (Catholic and non-Catholic alike) too seriously.
I was an atheist for decades, and thought a lot along the lines you do. There’s a lot of good, nice, moral people out there who don’t happen to believe in God … and I’m glad to have met one more.
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wolpertinger
Guest
The atheists that come here (myself included, for the sake of clarity) have to brace themselves against your scorn if they wish a dialogue. To add insult to injury, the forum policies require that we treat Cathlicism respectfully, while you are under no reciprocal obligation.
Quite frankly, you display the same kind of superior attitude that you accuse atheists of, which strips you of the high ground to “grapple against people infected with this My Human-Intellect is Supreme Attitude”.
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buffalo
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Not really. The my human intellect is supreme attitude is different.
One says - I have no need for God as my intellect is superior and has no wants or needs
The other - I am learned and certain about my faith, but humble before God.
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wolpertinger
Guest
If you were humble before your fellow human beings, it would be a different story. As it stands, please read what you just wrote and carefully consider the unspoken assumptions and skewed comparisons.
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buffalo
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As a Catholic I have to be humble before God first. Don’t read between the lines.
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wolpertinger
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I believe this exchange speaks for itself. Perhaps we’ll meet again.
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MichaelTDoyle
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I don’t know. People seem entrenched. There’s another thread with a bunch of trap questions from (I assume) an atheist site and they were easily refuted. Early on in my reversion I read such questions and I had a dark night where I had to assent with the will to my faith. I was the stronger for it, but I worry about people of weak faith being influenced by faulty arguments.
Of course faulty arguments can be on both sides. And the stakes are so high: the souls of those who could be a force for good (God) and that with charity and the Holy Spirit they might awaken to the spiritual reality.
I think discourse is a tricky thing. The best debater oftentimes wins. Only God has the whole Truth so in debates what comes out seeming rock solid oft isn’t.
Faith is an act, an assent, of the will, not a feeling or a proof. However, I think presenting the Truth and the Way are helpful all human hearts must long for Him even if they aren’t aware of it. I think God wills the salvation of all men. Some may resent the call but rapping on their heart must be a good thing–if it is a charitable call.
I think everyone is doing fine cause I still see charity in the thread: prayer and charity is how I want to approach these threads, but until I can do that I think I’d better shaddup.
A lotta words for a guy who said he wants to shaddup
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MichaelTDoyle
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Yeah, that’s why I am reluctant to post. Guilty as charged–to a degree. It;'s not superior more that I get carried away about the Good News and I want to share it and the difficulty turns to frustration and that results in a lack of charity.
Would you deny the initial poster had that atttitude though? And that the attitude is easily found on the web regarding atheism and those who espouse it?
heh edit: I know the frustration is easy enough to find on our side.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
James Kanatous:
As I have pointed out, the size of a closed system is irrelivant.
I can make the box as big as I like, and the argument still holds so long as I do not include the infinite source - which I call God.
And on basis WOULD I include that source inside the box?
To say that I am necessarily going to follow someone elses logic every step of the way is very likely incorrect.
There are some messages in an unrelated thread, by Louie, that others may wish to see first where he asks about gods function before creation.
I have not yet argued the personality, of God, merely the scientific belief which is most tested for our universe.
As I have pointed out, the size of a closed system is irrelivant.
I can make the box as big as I like, and the argument still holds so long as I do not include the infinite source - which I call God.
And on basis WOULD I include that source inside the box?
To say that I am necessarily going to follow someone elses logic every step of the way is very likely incorrect.
There are some messages in an unrelated thread, by Louie, that others may wish to see first where he asks about gods function before creation.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
And also an errata, my notes on thermodynamics are eight years old, on the sheet they were listed as conservation of mass/conservation of energy, and increase of entropy.
I have noticed that most websites refer to two laws of thermodynamics which is different, I expect, because of a typo on my notes.
I apologize for any confusion this may have caused.
But it doesn’t affect the argument.
I have noticed that most websites refer to two laws of thermodynamics which is different, I expect, because of a typo on my notes.
I apologize for any confusion this may have caused.
But it doesn’t affect the argument.
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wolpertinger
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I don’t deny that the attitude exists. An atheist has every right to demand that the god belief be justified within his or her own worldview, but some are a bit too smug about it.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
“An atheist has every right to demand that the god belief be justified within his or her own worldview.”
I gave up my worldview for obedience to Christ’s worldview. Christ is the objective Truth and experience has taught me that my subjective truth often leads me to disaster and spiritual death if not real death; this could also be termed my “fallen nature”.
Of all the worldviews espoused by all the peoples running around pell mell, why Christ’s? I think the Holy Spirit was the Prime Mover of me, the initial grace. But that does not preclude reasons for my re-version.
God is Love. Agape is the highest spiritual calling I know–to love in this fashion is the highest, most perfect way to live. All men realizing agape would be literally heaven on earth. What religion teaches this as the core tenet? Only Christianity. The Passion is the demonstration of agape perfected if one recognizes Christ as the spotless Lamb.
Once Christian, Catholicism naturally follows in fact they are one and the same.
corollary:
God is Love for me is a matter of faith, too. Doing a cursory look at Scripture or at the actions of people who profess Christianity and it might not seem so, but with faith that God is Love scripture becomes penetrable with the help of the Church when viewed from a position of humility, i.e. the benefit of the doubt is given to Scripture knowing thatGod is Love. I have yet to find a Church teaching that fails to support that God is Love.
-mike
hope telling my journey helped some-condensed as it was.
peace
I gave up my worldview for obedience to Christ’s worldview. Christ is the objective Truth and experience has taught me that my subjective truth often leads me to disaster and spiritual death if not real death; this could also be termed my “fallen nature”.
Of all the worldviews espoused by all the peoples running around pell mell, why Christ’s? I think the Holy Spirit was the Prime Mover of me, the initial grace. But that does not preclude reasons for my re-version.
God is Love. Agape is the highest spiritual calling I know–to love in this fashion is the highest, most perfect way to live. All men realizing agape would be literally heaven on earth. What religion teaches this as the core tenet? Only Christianity. The Passion is the demonstration of agape perfected if one recognizes Christ as the spotless Lamb.
Once Christian, Catholicism naturally follows in fact they are one and the same.
corollary:
God is Love for me is a matter of faith, too. Doing a cursory look at Scripture or at the actions of people who profess Christianity and it might not seem so, but with faith that God is Love scripture becomes penetrable with the help of the Church when viewed from a position of humility, i.e. the benefit of the doubt is given to Scripture knowing thatGod is Love. I have yet to find a Church teaching that fails to support that God is Love.
-mike
hope telling my journey helped some-condensed as it was.
peace
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Wormwood
Guest
Maybe they don’t use the word agape, but the toltecs believed that, also Buddhist.
As a long time atheist and recent convert (4 years or so) to agnosticism, I can say without a doubt NOT the same thing. An Atheist is like a christian…closed minded, only THEY are right and here is why… Agnostics know that we truly “know” very little. The only similarity is that they will not believe just because you do, they want some kind of proof. I have heard many assertions which typically go something like: The proof is in your life everyday when God does blah blah blah…So if a hindu has a great day and feels that spiritual completeness does that mean Vishnu did that, or is it psychosemantic? People’s judgement is clouded when they ascribe to one thing or another whole heartedly without question. Both sides assert that the other is foolish and closed minded, and they’re both right. But the MOST contradictory thing has to be a religion of love, “fighting” these evil atheists. Why must they convert or you convert for everyone to get along? Why not let them be happy doing their thing, and you be happy doing yours? When I was debating the value of one religion over another, trying to decide, I was immediately turned off by catholicism because there is so much hate and intolerance, basically if someone is different in any minor way they are living in sin and need to be preached to. You guys hate gays, protestants, atheists, and some even hate the Jews!! How do you call that a religion of love and compassion? I thought if one sheep strayed he was more important than the other 99. So in response to your question: there is no correct way because no one is verafiably right. I think a lot of broad generalizations were made about non-catholics, atheists and agnostics especially. Just because I don’t ascribe belief to a book of fables doesn’t mean I am a morally unjust person. I have done countless hours of volunteer work and I always help my fellow man when possible, I just don’t need a set of penalties to make me do it, I do it because I want to. I simply have no need for ceramony and religious ferver. It is like dancing, I could go through the motions but I would feel silly. Atheist aren’t people that are spiritually broken, just disillusioned by all the half truths and circular arguments. Everyone says their religion is the one true religion…someone (if not everyone) is incorrect by definition. What is the difference, as long as someone lives right and has good intentions, does it really matter which set of fairytails they believe in?kjvail you were an atheist ,help me get into the mind of an atheist ,most of them told me that they are agnostic ,oh well its pretty close ,maybe you could give me tips on how to combat them please? yu should join the forum.me and my friend need all the ammunition we can get.
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Wormwood
Guest
Agreed (about the smugness), and it is nice to see an enlightened attitude. If you never question, you will never truly know. I think that the smugness is a defense against the onslaught of persecution that follows being openly atheist. I grew up in the bible belt and as an atheist there I got everything from daily conversion attempts to outright hatred. Catholics and protestants become fast friends in the presence of an atheist. And I would like to change my response from my last post, I should have said the correct way to combat this is to lead by example, because when faced with someone who tries to back you into a corner over debatable issues, you will only respond accordingly. But if you constantly showed them the fruits of your religion through your action and attitude it does much more to impress people. Everytime I get ready to write you all off as closed minded, someone surprises me and makes me want to be a part of this.
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Wormwood
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For someone with superior intellect, you can’t even form a coherant sentance. If you are making the assertion that the human mind is supreme you are desperate need of a history lesson. Why not cover yourself in leeches and lead based face paint, and go to a good old fashion witch burning? Are any of these the acts of a “superior” mind? I am a member of Mensa I have a 154 I.Q. and I am 2 years from being liscenced as a medical doctor, and I am positive my mind is anything but superior. If you are basing this on technological advancement, you can not claim the actions of all humans…you didn’t figure out the cirumference of the earth using only geometry, you didn’t split the atom, and you did not make any advancement that has aided mankind, so what I ask you makes your mind so superior?
THANK YOU. Not to mention Cat is a good person and is very non confrontational when exploring these issues. The same people that talk about coversions and bringing people into the fold, also say stuff like :
Well obviously because we like being told how wrong immoral, and just plain ignorant we are! So thanks …keep it up
I had a catholic brother as a biology teacher in school, and when he taught the big bang it was in this light, God caused the big bang. He admitted the really proved nothing one way or another, but that he didn’t want to deprive us of knowledge the rest of the world would have. Religion and science don’t really go that well together unless you assert that everything that happens is due to God. This of course is a fallacy because you cannot prove it was God (or for that fact that it wasn’t Ra, Anu, Vishnu, Allah, or someother religious figure) As far as the God cannot decieve, what about in the garden of eden when he told adam if he ate the fuit he would die, and the serpent exposed him as a liar?
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
They may believe it. Most people believe love is a virtue. But only Christ died, God and Man on the Cross for us. Huge difference from so many different aspects, too. Love is the central tenet of Christianity, both spiritually and metaphysically.
peace
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