How to convince someone that Liturgical Dance is a "no-no"

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

The Tridentine Mass was not immune to even the most serious of liturgical abuses. Please consider the following from Adoremus.org:

The Old Mass

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

One priest in PA has written the letter quoted around the world, about a kazillion times. How many different examples of liturgical abuse do we see right here on these threads over and over in different places? About a kazillion.
Really, I don’t find much of a comparison.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

How reverent is a Mass where few people know or understand the words being said in a foreign language (Latin), almost none actually participate in the ritual and the congregation needs to be alerted by bells when something significant is happening? Yes, the NO Mass (indeed EVERY Mass) should be celebrated by ALL reverently.

Quite. I was saddened to go back to my NO parish after my one Sunday at High Mass, and find that it no longer felt like home (it took one Old Mass to counteract two years of Masses in the parish I am in). Why did it not? Because they tried to make it feel like home. They bend over backwards, these “Spirit of the Council” people, to put all of the focus of the assembled congregants upon the assembled congregants. It neglected to satisfy why it was I had come: to praise Jesus. In fact, I am saddened that the prayers prior to reception have been eliminated. I would have much rather have had the priest Consecrating the Host, while I prepared to receive it, then to memorise responses to “participate” in the Consecration, and neglect actual preparation to receive the Precious Body and Blood.

Originally Posted by AltarMan
The Tridentine Mass was not immune to even the most serious of liturgical abuses. Please consider the following from Adoremus.org:

The Old Mass

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

Ummm…look, I would take a shorter Mass rather than one which tries to veer from the Church’s say in the matter.

 

[rwoehmke]

CantorRick:

Don’t look now but…From “Liturgy and Music, Lifetime Learning” by The Liturgical Press, copyright 1998, The Order of St. Benedict, Inc.

"Symbolic Actions in Christian Worship, Patrick Byrne

1. Dancing at particular moments in the liturgy.
   David danced as the arc of the covenant was brought to Jerusalem (2 Sam 6). Even today some Jewish people dance during the celebration of Simchat Torah. Religious dancing is accepted in many cultures. While this may not be part of our North American, British Isles, Northern European or Puritan backgrounds, it is part of many other nations and cultures which are part of our mosaic today. While many of us may not be ready for dancing or clapping in our worship services, these gestures may be a way in which we could use our bodies in worship in the years to come." Food for thought.
   Richard

I think the point here is that if the whole congregation dances, sings, claps their hands or whatever it might be acceptable depending on the culture of the people. Watching a dance troupe during Mass or worship just misses the boat. I suspect that in the jewish celebration either everyone or all the males present would dance. Even the choir and instrumentalists are not at Mass to perform, but to lead the congregation in singing. When ol David danced before the Ark I would guess he was alone and probably not in the space where the Ark was kept because only the the High Priest could enter there. I myself would like to see more joy in our liturgical exercises, but have found liturgical dance, the few times I have seen it at Mass, very contrived in its effect. A distraction and not an asset. Dick

 

[jkuebler]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

These people had the Latin Mass every week. They were taught by nuns and guided by priests who understood it. Why is it that those Catholics born when VII came into popularity, think that no one understood what people experienced every week??

I am 58 years old, and I grew up with the Latin Mass. I was a 4 year Latin student in a Catholic high school taught by Nuns and Priests, so I understood it! But I was still aware that many people did NOT understand it, including many Priests who slurred the Latin so badly that it was hardly understandable by anybody. If there wasn’t something broke, the Holy Spirit would not have inspired VII to fix it! But we are getting off of the topic of this thread…

I believe that the Liturgy, the Mass, is itself a kind of liturgical dance, intricately choreographed with movements and postures. For example, the procession with the Book of the Gospels to the ambo involves the whole presider, the legs striding, the arms raising the Book, the eyes gazing at the Book, and all of this integrated with the singing of the Alleluia.

 

[AltarMan]

jkuebler:

I am 58 years old, and I grew up with the Latin Mass. I was a 4 year Latin student in a Catholic high school taught by Nuns and Priests, so I understood it! But I was still aware that many people did NOT understand it, including many Priests who slurred the Latin so badly that it was hardly understandable by anybody. If there wasn’t something broke, the Holy Spirit would not have inspired VII to fix it! But we are getting off of the topic of this thread…

I believe that the Liturgy, the Mass, is itself a kind of liturgical dance, intricately choreographed with movements and postures. For example, the procession with the Book of the Gospels to the ambo involves the whole presider, the legs striding, the arms raising the Book, the eyes gazing at the Book, and all of this integrated with the singing of the Alleluia.

The Mass is a sacrifice. The ultimate sacrifice of God the Son to His Father for propitiation of our sins. * It’s not a “dance.”*

 

[fix]

jkuebler:

I am 58 years old, and I grew up with the Latin Mass. I was a 4 year Latin student in a Catholic high school taught by Nuns and Priests, so I understood it! But I was still aware that many people did NOT understand it, including many Priests who slurred the Latin so badly that it was hardly understandable by anybody. If there wasn’t something broke, the Holy Spirit would not have inspired VII to fix it! But we are getting off of the topic of this thread…

You think the mass was broke? Where may I find this document that supports your assertion?

 

[jkuebler]

AltarMan:

The Mass is a sacrifice. The ultimate sacrifice of God the Son to His Father for propitiation of our sins. It’s not a “dance.”

Of course, you are correct. The Mass is unquestionably a sacrifice. I apologize; I mis-spoke. The point that I was trying to make was that there seems to be elements of liturgical dance already in the way that the actions within the Liturgy are choreographed.

fix:

You think the mass was broke? Where may I find this document that supports your assertion?

CONSTITUTION
ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS

POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 4, 1963

III. The Reform of the Sacred Liturgy

1. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

 

[fix]

jkuebler:

CONSTITUTION
ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS

POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 4, 1963

III. The Reform of the Sacred Liturgy

1. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

Where does this say, or imply, the Holy Sacrifice of the mass was broken?

 

[jkuebler]

fix:

Where does this say, or imply, the Holy Sacrifice of the mass was broken?

Perhaps “broken” is too strong a word, and I meant it merely idiomatically. I hope that we can agree that the Constitution does clearly state that there were grounds for reform and restoration. But this is straying somewhat from the topic of this thread.

I had to smile to myself this past Sunday when the entrance song was “City of God” (Schutte) with the refrain “May our tears be turned into dancing!” (Ps 30:12-13) I know that dance in the liturgy is not appropriate in many (most?) cases, but I think we need to allow for the possibility that the Spirit can sometimes move us to use more than just our voices to praise and worship God with enthusiasm and, indeed, reverence. “If your whole body is full of light, and no part of it is in darkness, then it will be as full of light as a lamp illuminating you with its brightness.” (Lk 11:36)

 

[Walking_Home]

Mr. JKuebler,

I see you are walking the way in believing its the spirit that moves you to dance during our Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[fix]

jkuebler:

Perhaps “broken” is too strong a word, and I meant it merely idiomatically. I hope that we can agree that the Constitution does clearly state that there were grounds for reform and restoration. But this is straying somewhat from the topic of this thread.

I had to smile to myself this past Sunday when the entrance song was “City of God” (Schutte) with the refrain “May our tears be turned into dancing!” (Ps 30:12-13) I know that dance in the liturgy is not appropriate in many (most?) cases, but I think we need to allow for the possibility that the Spirit can sometimes move us to use more than just our voices to praise and worship God with enthusiasm and, indeed, reverence. “If your whole body is full of light, and no part of it is in darkness, then it will be as full of light as a lamp illuminating you with its brightness.” (Lk 11:36)

I will stick with Rome. Dancing is not part of the mass and we have no authority to add or subtract from the mass.